Comments on The Pensive Quill: Childhood Times Within War

Anthony, 'I hadn't much thought about the...

2013-03-13T00:21:26.823Z

Anthony,

'I hadn't much thought about the matter in this context until she raised the question.'

Bantering aside, I thought she raised a pertinent point on what is an insurmountable contradiction for her about a matter that did not readily stand out from the piece.I did enjoy the exchange.

'Political analysis has to be like medicine: revised, reworked and reapplied until it produces the best result. Old remedies that don't change over time lack the strength to deal with the issues they seek to combat.'

This for me was highlighted in the debate. I think there is something to be said of Schumpeterian economics that can also be applied to political analysis in general - innovate or go bust.

Robert, I thought Belfast Bookworm made a good co...

2013-03-12T10:39:56.102Z

Robert,

I thought Belfast Bookworm made a good contribution to the exchange. I hadn't much thought about the matter in this context until she raised the question. I think there is a lot of space opening up for republicans to reevaluate their perspective on unionism and loyalism. It is something myself and Mickey McMullan had been writing about from the prison in 1986. He was more attuned to the autonomy of unionism than I was then.

Political analysis has to be like medicine: revised, reworked and reapplied until it produces the best result. Old remedies that don't change over time lack the strength to deal with the issues they seek to combat.

But ultimately Belfast Bookworm has raised matters that have to be addressed in a manner that corresponds with the position loyalists actually take as distinct from the theoretical possibilities I have sought to outline.

Belfast Bookworm, 'How like a moth the simple...

2013-03-12T08:57:13.290Z

Belfast Bookworm,

'How like a moth the simple maid still plays about the flame'

'What could you possibly say for yourself that Anthony didn't say for you?'

I doubt know if ventriloquism is a function that Anthony performs here? Gottle O Gear. Much like your views on imperialism it is very much an opinion rather than a fact.

Anthony, 'I didn't see it in terms of any...

2013-03-12T08:43:10.100Z

Anthony,

'I didn't see it in terms of anybody turning anybody else inside out.'

I never detect that as your intent in addressing anyone but where a gladiatorial stance is adopted it has that affect.

Yes Robert. What could you possibly say for yourse...

2013-03-11T22:06:09.480Z

Yes Robert. What could you possibly say for yourself that Anthony didn't say for you?

Thank you though for your impervious complement. I do try.

Robert, I didn't see it in terms of anybody t...

2013-03-11T21:33:37.671Z

Robert,

I didn't see it in terms of anybody turning anybody else inside out. I think it is the type of discussion that republicans need to have.

Belfast Bookworm, 'Your contribution here ha...

2013-03-11T21:02:35.171Z

Belfast Bookworm,

'Your contribution here has been very valuable, really helped shed a light on the matter and no doubt enlightened other posters, as it has done me, to other perspectives.'

It is questionable what contribution could be made to this debate by myself or anyone else that would be beneficial to you. Anthony has clearly turned you inside out on this. It has been such a one sided affair that shedding any further light on the matter would only succeed in illuminating further a theoretical adherent that finds herself on the wrong side of the twentieth century. It would, of course, also increase your anger.

Those intent on sloganising to the extent that they are unable to distinguish between fact and opinion are rarely, I find, up for other perspectives, they merely want to reiterate. I think you have displayed that type of impervious nature here. You may find humility a much better option.

Robert; 'Precisely!' Your contribution h...

2013-03-11T18:53:53.103Z

Robert;

'Precisely!'

Your contribution here has been very valuable, really helped shed a light on the matter and no doubt enlgihtened other posters, as it has done me, to other perspectives.

Belfast Bookworm, 'This would apply to any Am...

2013-03-10T20:57:01.636Z

Belfast Bookworm,

'This would apply to any American citizen who is an environmentalist. I have to say this was a stupid comparison you made.'

Precisely!

BB, ok. Hope you are enjoying your Mother's D...

2013-03-10T18:13:23.904Z

BB,

ok. Hope you are enjoying your Mother's Day.

Anthony; 'As is often the case with what is st...

2013-03-10T17:34:49.756Z

Anthony; 'As is often the case with what is stated as fact. What people often present as fact is not fact but opinion, often enforced as fact in a 'regime of truth' where what passes for truth has no basis in fact. '

Agreed.

Ill not regurgitate any of my points again though. We will have to agree to differ on this one.

I was hoping a unionist or loyalist would step in and offer some insight or contribution to the discussion.

They must know I'm right! ;)

BB, The Birmingham 6 case wasn't fact beca...

2013-03-10T13:42:43.175Z
BB,

The Birmingham 6 case wasn't fact because the men accused didn't do what they were accused of. 'Facts' were made up and presented as factual at the time.

As is often the case with what is stated as fact. What people often present as fact is not fact but opinion, often enforced as fact in a 'regime of truth' where what passes for truth has no basis in fact.

My approach is to see most things as opinions, some of which are more easily to substantiate than others. I don't relativise opinions so that all are of the same merit. I merely accept that people often have a different view of what I consider facts and have a right to hold that opinion.

Robert; if you'd read my earlier posts you wil...

2013-03-10T13:06:17.137Z
Robert; if you'd read my earlier posts you will see that I clearly stated that someone born in England - an imperialist aggressor, does not necessarily have to be an imperialist themselves. This would apply to any American citizen who is an environmentalist. I have to say this was a stupid comparison you made.

My points are clear; someone, ie the loyalists in this case, who supports British rule in Ireland can not be anti imperialist about Britain. They probably can about Palestine etc but not about Britain. They are part of that imperialism.

Anthony; your fact points (about the Birmingham 6) is not the same thing. The 'facts' of this case were not facts at all and were later overturned. The fact that Ireland was invaded will not and cannot be overturned because it happened. All the evidence is there. How else did they come to be here?

The Birmingham 6 case wasn't fact because the men accused didn't do what they were accused of. 'Facts' were made up and presented as factual at the time.

Itsjustmacker. being disagreed with is hardly a n...

2013-03-10T12:36:06.349Z
Itsjustmacker.

being disagreed with is hardly a new phenomeon in my life! Nor is being wrong either. But on this one I am confortable with the perspective I subscribe to. Not that it is something I ever gave much thought to prior to this.

Totally outside the context of the current discussion can it be said that if an event occurred and It was stated as FACT, then logic is it was a fact, no matter how many centuries ago the fact happened, it is still FACT to this very day

Look at the 'fact' of the guilt of the Birmingham six. It was 'stated as fact', was accepted by many as fact, and was in fact overturned. Now we have a different fact. Most people now know that their 'guilt' was not a fact.

Take the ‘facts’ of religion – the infallible pope. A laughable notion but held by millions to be a fact.

On the question of facts - I happen to think it is a fact that Ireland was colonised. And in my view that will continue to remain a fact until such until such times as somebody comes up with the historical evidence to allow us to reconsider the factual basis of that claim.

I don't believe it is a fact to say that the North of Ireland today is a colony where a group of British foreigners are living as settlers for the colonial purpose of holding the territory for the metropolitan centre. That is an opinion and is seriously challenged by others who do not subscribe to it. Republicans who refer to them as misguided Irishmen can hardly juggle the two balls in the air - colons and Irish nationals. In my view they are Irish citizens who have dissented from the Irish nation state and have given their allegiance to another nation state. Which they feel they have a right to belong to. They have done this for a myriad of reasons which I think we often get back to front. They don’t sit in Ireland for the purpose of holding the territory for the British. They think they are holding the British on the territory when the British would just give it up out of self interest. This invites a range of discussion which we can’t go into here but merely raise some of the associated questions, such as: is the nation inviolable to dissent; whether people have the right to dissent only from some things not others; should people have a right to secede from a nation? If not, then is Pakistan not a nation nor Bangladesh for that reason? Should nationalism ultimately have a greater call on a persons’s loyalty than religion? I don’t think these questions can ever be addresses through our simple schemas which we use as short hand to make sense of what goes on around us.

The difference of opinion between myself and Bookworm is not about the past as I have offered no opinion on it, assuming it to be the fact that BB states it to be. It is about the present situation in which a loyalist might regard herself as an anti-imperialist. I believe they can and BB that they cannot.

Immanuel Wallerstein in his World Systems model has some interesting things to say on how a nation can move about levels in the world, progressing form periphery to semi periphery and even to core. The fact that a country was peripheral to the world economy in the past is not proof of its factual status today. The world is not a static place. It seems very ahistorical to think that it is. When I did history I tried to look for what was discontinuous as well as what was continuous.

BB, It seems neither of us can persuade each othe...

2013-03-10T12:03:06.061Z
BB,

It seems neither of us can persuade each other. But that it the way of debate.

The analogy does not work for me. SF is hoist on its own petard and ultimately trapped by its own logic. It has accused others of not being republican for doing the very thing it is doing now. SF states very clearly that republicans cannot administer British rule. They still deny they are administering British rule. Francie Molloy was the only one I ever heard actually admitting it and he later retracted. I have a very firm opinion of that even if my opinion is contested. I don’t state that my opinion is a fact that cannot be disputed.

If a loyalist does not support imperialist aggression, opposes wars against Iraq, Afghanistan, Palestine etc but does not believe that Britain is in Ireland today because of imperialist purposes, but is there because a section of the Northern population wants it to be there, then that person can believe of himself that he is an anti-imperialist. Just as the person who supported the right of the Malvinas not to be invaded by the British but believed the Argentine military had a right to be there cannot reasonably be accused of being a supporter of the dirty war, the loyalist cannot be accused (in every circumstance) of being pro imperialist. It is determined by their attitude toward Britain’s relationship to Ireland. If a loyalist supported imperialist aggression - in the way SF supports the administration of British rule – then it would be very hard for them to make the case that they were anti-imperialist.

Then the problem becomes even more complex when we consider that people who profess to be anti-imperialist Marxists of the left, support the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq. They don’t even define it as imperialist aggression. Then we have self-defined Marxists who supported the clerical fascists during the Danish anti-theocratic cartoons dispute. Are they not Marxists and merely fascists? I would find it very hard to make that argument even though I disagree with them.

And of course we had the republicans who colloborated with the Nazis during WW2. Would they have been in a good position to criticise those loyalists who fought the Nazis? I am sure you will find in loyalist culture a strain of though that will feel nationalist Ireland lacked anti-imperialist credentials because of the way it responded during WW2 when the world was faced with one of the most vicious imperialist onslaughts in history.

Belfast Bookworm, Something to consider over brea...

2013-03-10T09:19:46.335Z
Belfast Bookworm,

Something to consider over breakfast perhaps?

'In this respect a loyalist, ie, someone who is loyal to Britain the coloniser in any shape or form, cannot therefore be anti imperialist against Britain!'

The United States is not party to the Kyoto Protocol. If we apply your logic to global warming, for instance, no American could claim to be an environmentalist.

Anthony. You can be magical with words at the bes...

2013-03-10T02:19:22.377Z
Anthony.

You can be magical with words at the best of times, but I have to agree with BB on this one, If an event occurred and It was stated as FACT, then logic is it was a fact, no matter how many centuries ago the fact happened , it is still FACT to this very day, was it not a fact when Collins was rebuked for being late for the downing of the Union Jack and the raising of the Tricolour, he said, 7 minutes?, you kept us waiting 700 years?. that is still a fact to this day. In my opinion, once a fact has been proven, it remains a fact forever. would you not agree with that.?

Anthony; here's an analogy; If SF claim they ...

2013-03-09T23:25:28.980Z
Anthony; here's an analogy;

If SF claim they seek an end to British rule in Ireland and want the Brits out, but are administering British rule in a British micro government how can they then claim to be republican?

Anthony; it is a fact that Britain invaded Ireland...

2013-03-09T23:13:02.888Z
Anthony; it is a fact that Britain invaded Ireland is it not in the early 12th century?

It s a fact that with this invasion began 800 or so years of English and British rule. If these are facts - and I really don't see how they can be 'only perceived' as so, then surely it is factual that Ireland was and is colonised.

Are you suggesting that these things - the invasion of Ireland - is not fact, that it could only be my feeling that it is?

Sure, language has changed and when many speak of colonisation today we refer to modern colonisation of middle eastern countries, Africa etc. but because our language has softened, the fact remains that Ireland was seized by Britain and part of the country is still in British hands.

It is still therefore a colony. And those who back and support the colonisers cannot claim to be anti imperialist.

Simple.

BB, I still think you are stating opinions and as...

2013-03-09T21:26:14.376Z
BB,

I still think you are stating opinions and assigning fact to them. Because a fact took place in the past does not mean it continues to be a fact today. But it seems neither I or a million unionists will persuade you otherwise!

Belfast Bookworm, or only your feeling that it is...

2013-03-09T21:05:42.393Z
Belfast Bookworm,

or only your feeling that it is. I don't feel it is a colony today whatever it may have been in the past. I think the people of the North are as Irish as I am. Not that I have any great attachment to nationalism.

I don't think many nationalists feel it is a colony. Few people seem to use that type of language today. That doesn't make it any less oppressive. Even when Brian Feeney uses the term 'colonial secretary' I laugh because it is funny but I don't view it as meaning to characterise the relationshp as one of colonialism.

I generally try to avoid those situations where I claim to have the facts and that everybody else merely holds opinions. I never find things so clear cut. This is why I see religion as an opinion whereas the religious try to tell me it is a fact. Did you ever read Foucault on regimes of truth? I always found him helpful on these matters and in particular on how we have come to know what we claim to know. I don't think he invented the term 'dictatorship of facts' but his thinking would not be far removed from that concept.

Anthony; the fact I'm referring to here is tha...

2013-03-09T20:35:00.537Z
Anthony; the fact I'm referring to here is that Ireland was colonised. That's not in dispute at all. It is fact.

Because a loyalist 'feels' that the relationship is no longer one of imperialism does not change the fact that it was a colonised country and part of it still is.

Therefore, a loyalist who by definition is loyal to the crown/Britain or whatever, cannot be an anti imperialist. If they're a run of the mill prod they can, but not a loyalist. It simply does not make sense.

Anthony; but the fact I'm referring to here is...

2013-03-09T20:25:39.448Z
Anthony; but the fact I'm referring to here is the fact that Ireland was colonised.

There's no grey area here. It's an utter fact. If a loyalist then says; 'aye but its not really a colony now is it?' Because s/he 'feels' its not, doesnt change the fact that it is, only their feeling about it.

In this respect a loyalist, ie, someone who is loyal to Britain the coloniser in any shape or form, cannot therefore be anti imperialist against Britain!

Belfast Bookworm, when a fact is a fact it can...

2013-03-09T19:34:16.423Z
Belfast Bookworm,

when a fact is a fact it can't be challenged surely?

But facts rerely present themselves. They have to be searched for and established as fact. We believe that the five techniques of 1971 were torture and we present this as a fact. The European Court of Human Rights siad they were something bad but not quite torture.

Often what people tell you are facts are in fact their opinion of something being a fact.

but no matter what the relationship is now between the 'mother country' and her victims, it is still imperialism.

I view this as an opinion. It is too sweeping a generalisation for me to be able to offer it as something that is totally consistent with the specific facts of each particular relationship. The less we know about something the less able we are able to speak about it factually.

The letter was in 1982 and I wrote it as the block PRO of H6 if I remember rightly. It was winding Gerry Fitt up about something and the Malvinas came into for some reason.

Anthony; when a fact is a fact it can't be cha...

2013-03-09T17:26:13.669Z
Anthony; when a fact is a fact it can't be challenged surely? Theories and opinions can but not facts. Questioning the factual basis of something of course should be encouraged but in ths case, the north is an age-old product of Britain's colonisation of the whole island.

I agree with you that it no longer needs territorial acquisition to advance its imperialist interests as FG... And the rest.. Are only too willing partners!

I believe globalisation and capitalism has changed relationships between countries and imperialism no longer conjures up images of invasion, slavery etc when we speak about it in the western world. (I'm not referring her to imperialism in the Middle East, Africa, South America etc) but no matter what the relationship is now between the 'mother country' and her victims, it is still imperialism.

I think an unintended outcome - or perhaps intended - of imperialism is normalisation. Creating an acceptance of the imperialist among natives, enhancing the feeling of being at one with them and therefore remove any rsk of rebellion. In that sense it has worked here.

I wouldn't mind reading that letter you wrote if you've still a copy? Perhaps as an article on TPQ?

Comments on The Pensive Quill: Childhood Times Within War

Anthony, 'I hadn't much thought about the...

Robert, I thought Belfast Bookworm made a good co...

Belfast Bookworm, 'How like a moth the simple...

Anthony, 'I didn't see it in terms of any...

Yes Robert. What could you possibly say for yourse...

Robert, I didn't see it in terms of anybody t...

Belfast Bookworm, 'Your contribution here ha...

Robert; 'Precisely!' Your contribution h...

Belfast Bookworm, 'This would apply to any Am...

BB, ok. Hope you are enjoying your Mother's D...

Anthony; 'As is often the case with what is st...

BB, The Birmingham 6 case wasn't fact beca...

Robert; if you'd read my earlier posts you wil...

Itsjustmacker. being disagreed with is hardly a n...

BB, It seems neither of us can persuade each othe...

Belfast Bookworm, Something to consider over brea...

Anthony. You can be magical with words at the bes...

Anthony; here's an analogy; If SF claim they ...

Anthony; it is a fact that Britain invaded Ireland...

BB, I still think you are stating opinions and as...

Belfast Bookworm, or only your feeling that it is...

Anthony; the fact I'm referring to here is tha...

Anthony; but the fact I'm referring to here is...

Belfast Bookworm, when a fact is a fact it can...

Anthony; when a fact is a fact it can't be cha...