Comments on The Pensive Quill: Policing the Children

Peadar, I read your post extremely late last night...

2011-06-10T19:08:15.831+01:00

Peadar,
I read your post extremely late last night and appear to have missed the final paragraph, got the 'watery' bit of course, yet fail to see what relevance it has.
At the risk of sounding off the cuff, I couldn't care less what people think of my opinions and beliefs. I have held these beliefs all my life and doubt if I'll change them just because they don't fit with how you and anyone believes republicans should think.
I don't think your scenario, is similiar to Alec's.
We have been told we have a reconstituted police force and yet his experience proves we have the same old.
I think your problem with people like me go much deeper than the traumatic experience your children had to suffer.

Peadar, because I won't comdemn what you think...

2011-06-09T23:45:08.864+01:00

Peadar,
because I won't comdemn what you think I should condem, I am 'watery'
How would you know what I am you know absolutely nothing about me?
However you chose to lift some of my words from a recent letter, maybe I should be flattered, whatever?
I don't view your scenario like Alec's and that is it in a nutshell.

Fionnuala I believed I had drawn the lin...

2011-06-09T18:24:55.180+01:00

Fionnuala
I believed I had drawn the line under this but finally from me

My opinion is
your failure to condemn is to condone

You should be condemning the attacks on nationalist /republican homes, vehicles, businesses as loudly and with as much venom as when it is carried out by state forces. What gives these groups the right to attack me or anyone else?

As a republican you should see that attacks on the people that you claim these groups represent is republican folly and takes us not a single inch further towards unity.

As a republican I totally abhore the actions of the PSNI against Alec and his family but be aware that many many people see your watery, half hearted excuses and hollow empathy to these similar attacks on nationalist / republican people as equally abhorant.

Sin é

@ Alec McCrory Alec I don't know if you are fa...

2011-06-09T07:44:20.335+01:00

@ Alec McCrory Alec I don't know if you are familiar with a well known activism blog called as follows:
LA INTELIGENTA INDIĜENA
The Newspaper for the Peoples of the Fourth World
Just a thought you may like to submit some more on this article to them to get more international coverage You can also google The Angry Indian to see more stuff they do. It reaches all Indigenous nations north south east west.

FPerry Alec mentions cop harassment and your full...

2011-06-09T00:16:35.261+01:00

FPerry

Alec mentions cop harassment and your fully in tune with what he says --Peadar is graffic and explicite in what he writes, "door is kicked in. The kids cowering in the corner crying, shacking and terrified of what's going to happen to their father." And your lost, baffled even, and you simply can't grasp what happened? You can follow the trauma inflicted from a stop and search -it has nothing to do with damage done but who is supposed to have done it.

For years in the Kesh I watched the effects on those who spoke out of turn, said something different than the party line --godforbid there should not be the rigid unity --false and forced -the repeated affirmnationbs that -only they do bad --we do good.

I was on a wing with a man who by all accounts was said to "have some balls" he was around from 69 --in and out of prison --and lived whatever the life an IRA activist lives -on his last stint in jail he declined a camp position -he said that on this occassion he needs to prioritise his family and kids --he was bad mouthed and ostracised --spent most of his time in his cell --the Republican Polit bureu consumes all in its wake --like a cancer, nothing is spared --in the end I don't think this narcasistic form of Republicanism expressed by you or Alec is of any value to any one --least of the very people like Peadar and his family who its supposed to be for.

Many have endured it in the prisons, or visiting prisons, week in week out without complaint --I don't think republicans need or deserve to be put through what Peadar has detailed here --the tactful confusion or prevarisation because Peadar asked what is the difference?

The difference is simple -damage and hurt is only caused --so long as the narrative blames the Brits --there is no other permissible script.

Tiarna

Where or when I might ask have the manners been pu...

2011-06-09T00:04:44.648+01:00

Where or when I might ask have the manners been put into them?

It never was and it was never going to happen anyway. 'Tell them anything and they'll believe it so to speak.'

What happened to Alec and his family was carried out by the RUC which is incorporated in the PSNI as in their full title....The PSNI [Incorporating the RUC]. The political police force McGuinness said in 2004 they would never support.

However we can play the game of whataboutery like a game of tennis; back and forth, but it doesn't change one thing and that is Republicanism is in a hell of a mess and going nowhere and people just aren't interested anymore.

Why?

I've said it before numerous times, if older Republicans such as myself see nothing forward thinking in any of the groups out there at present, then how do they expect to attract the support of even the ordinary man and woman on the street?

And believe you me, I know of many Republicans who think like me. And they are definitely not paid 'community workers'.

Peadar, I think you are right about drawing a line...

2011-06-08T23:07:42.692+01:00

Peadar,
I think you are right about drawing a line under this.
As I already said, I would not know what I was supposed to be condemning, nor do I fully comprehend what it is I am supposed to be condoning.
If republicans are actually harming their own people then of course I would speak out.
If you read what I 'pen', I think I do try to give fair commentary. However, I cannot pretend to something that I am not.
In reality, I think you and I have two very different view points.
To finish, I was totally genuine in relation to your family's ordeal, just sorry you never felt that.

Fionnula I guess this has all became circu...

2011-06-08T22:12:02.096+01:00

Fionnula
I guess this has all became circular and we might as well draw the proverbial line under the blogs. Irrespective of what happened it is suffice to say that my children were left traumatized and in fear. Those who carried it out you continue to defend. To condemn (rightly) what happened to Alec then offer empathy with me is where the hypocrisy lies. If the terror inflicted on Children is wrong then it is wrong in both cases.
If you cannot see yourself able to condemn it because one was carried out by the "boys" "volunteers" or any other moniker you attach, then you condone attacks on the people you claim to represent in your political viewpoint. If you honestly believe this is all part of guerilla warfare and my family were simply unfortunate victims of war then you really need to look deeper into your community to see the resentment against what you support. Militant republicans attacking republicans will not unite Ireland but will merely cause outrage and the same disgust that caused Alec to pen his blog.
If you condone the attack on my family and many other families then have the gumption to say it. I might disagree but at least I know where you stand. If however your empathy is valid and you believe what is happening in our communities to the likes of myself and other then speak out with the same venom that drives you to condemn the PSNI and pen letters to the papers.

Go raibh maith agat

Peadar

Peadar, I still have no idea what took place in yo...

2011-06-07T23:29:56.652+01:00

Peadar,
I still have no idea what took place in your home, whether your home was being taken over, or you were being threatened for another reason I honestly don't know.
How can I be expected to condemn something I do not understand.
When I said I had never condemned a house being taken over including my mothers I was being honest.
How you find that hypocritical I don't know?

Alec Maybe you should read over what you wrote --...

2011-06-07T09:39:02.157+01:00

Alec

Maybe you should read over what you wrote --some of it was disengenious and if you cannot recognise it for what it is then 'delusion' was an appropriate attribute after all.

No-one here has thought anything different about how the cops treat your family --I have known you and your family for many years --I sat in the same prison cells as you --and on occassion with you.

That it is a 'circular argument' means only one thing you disagree with the idea that Republicans should expect the same due regard for their children from 'fellow' republicans as you demand from the PSNI. ... that speaks volumes....and obviously the circle is closed.

Tiarna

Peadar I am happy that you accept my comments reg...

2011-06-07T00:52:50.294+01:00

Peadar

I am happy that you accept my comments regarding the incident at your home. I can appreciate its impact simply because members of my own family had similar experiences in the past. During the years of the conflict hundreds of families had their privacy invaded by the PIRA causing great distress. It should never be treated lightly.

tiarna

I am not one to hit and run but I recognise a circular argument when I see it.

Any underhandedness has been your doing rather than mine. I have not twisted your words for it is clear to me exactly where you stand on all of this. I am entitled to condemn the police for harassing my family despite whatever else is going on within the world of republicanism.

I really do have very little more to say on this subject.

Fionnuala, Without elaborating I believe i...

2011-06-06T22:48:27.545+01:00

Fionnuala,
Without elaborating I believe it's clear what occurred "you walked the walk" as you say so I reckon your up to speed. I am looking no sympathy, empathy or am i defending the PSNI actions against Alec and his family.
My reply to Alec initially was to highlight the similar actions by "republicans" on their own community that occurs day and daily again without the same revulsion. My belief, and I think it has been vindicated is that many posters on here including yourself see these attacks as a legitimate part of the "war". I believe we could replace all of Alec's initial post to fit my scenario and all of your disgust and revulsion would vanish. Here in lies the hypocracy of it all.
If for some reason you feel that you can make an articulated distinction for the actions of the "boys" for their attacks on nationalist / republican homes, vehicles or even places of work then I for one would like to hear it. To justify it as part of a guerilla war and ignore the resentment in our own communities for these people is republican folly.

Alec
thanks for all of your comments and I sincerely hope that the harassment ends but my final point put into an analogy.

What if I refused on that night to lift the bonnet or my arms.

Peadar

FPerry "I still have no idea what happened i...

2011-06-06T21:51:14.793+01:00

FPerry

"I still have no idea what happened in your home? Tiarna must have a crystal ball or perhaps is a lot more perceptive than the rest of us."

If you did less defending and more reading then you would have read the same as I have --Peadars third sentence state, "The kids cowering in the corner crying, shacking and terrified of what's going to happen to their father."

On one hand you are suggesting house take overs are part of the course for Republicans to put up with --but not take it from the PSNI --you can't have it every which way.

Alec

You hit and run on your own blogg, I quote, "I feel the tnere is no more to be said on the matter."

Then you come back to quote me out of context "after numerous posts you have finally managed to show your true colours: "the PSNI are starting to look like the good guys..."

What I wrote was "In those terms the PSNI are starting to look like the good guys..." which is very different to how you are trying to dishonestly spin my words --I sat in the same prison cells that you sat in --so please less the underhanded twisting of meaning.

Bow out of the blogg or participate --don't snipe.

Tiarna

Tiarna, When I said, houses being taken over never...

2011-06-06T21:00:59.607+01:00

Tiarna,
When I said, houses being taken over never perturbed me I was being genuine!
I never suggested for a second that there was a difference between Alec's children and Peadar's.
'My words sound hollow' based on what, your interpretation of how people should think and respond?
Too be honest I have probably been a lot more up front and sincere than someone like you.

tirana after numerous posts you have finally mana...

2011-06-06T20:13:25.806+01:00

tirana

after numerous posts you have finally managed to show your true colours: "the PSNI are starting to look like the good guys..."

I doubt people like you will hold the police accountable for their actions. Instead, you prefer to use deflecting arguments to off set any criticism.

Peadar, I still have no idea what happened in your...

2011-06-06T20:08:32.954+01:00

Peadar,
I still have no idea what happened in your home?
Tiarna must have a crystal ball or perhaps is a lot more perceptive than the rest of us.
What I said about guerrilla war was not meant to be funny, nor was the empathy I expressed. I just have a feeling that, any expression of sympathy been will not be good enough.
Just to end, I had an experience which I would imagine was similiar to what I think you went through.
So I think you could say I have walked that walk. I genuinely hope you and your family have recovered from your ordeal.
You probably won't appreciate me saying that either!

FPerry You are not purturbed at Peadar's kids...

2011-06-06T19:08:21.737+01:00

FPerry

You are not purturbed at Peadar's kids "... cowering in the corner crying, shacking and terrified of what's going to happen to their father." but its awful if the PSNI stop Alec with his kids?? Really??

You off course "genuinely empathize with Peadar", why would you not? --mere hollow words --until it happens again if the 'boys' feel like doing it again?

And Republicans should tolerate that but run screaming abuse if the PSNI do it....

In those terms the PSNI are starting to look like the good guys in all of this if you and Alec's responses are the best that republicans can expect in how they can be treated in their own homes by Republiacns.

Tiarna

michaelhenry Thanks for you comment.

2011-06-06T19:07:21.613+01:00

michaelhenry

Thanks for you comment.

All, Isuppose quite a useful debate out of my i...

2011-06-06T18:53:15.361+01:00

All,
Isuppose quite a useful debate out of my initial reply to Alec's blog. As I said previously I have no political axe to grind nor any other agenda other than to highlight what I see as hypocracy and the deluded unwritten justification for the attack i mentioned. Empathy I can certainly do without and what is clearly needed is for high profile republicans like Alec to condemn these actions as verociously as he condems the actions of state forces. I see no difference in the terror inflicted on Alec's children and that of my own. To suggest there is a difference because one armed group are supposed to "police" within the law whilst the others operate outside of "the law" is wrong. These groups supposedly represent me so why attack me? These groups were active in helping canvass for votes so why attack those they wish to represent.
To justify it Fionnuala as the reality of "guerilla war" is as ridiculous as it is laughable. Guerilla war!! do you honestly believe this was / is guerilla warfare? You can now see why I used the term deluded and I suspect from previous blogs that Alec would carry a similiar arguement to yourself. If this is not the case Alec, i apologise.
Does attacking Nationalist/Republicans in their own home, terrorising children move us any further towards unity or does it fall under the earlier point Alec makes, that many actions lead to deep seated grievances and resentment (and on this occasion individuals with the same wish to see an a unified Ireland )

go raibh maith agat

Peadar

tiarna, what I was trying to be, was absolutely ho...

2011-06-06T10:05:39.720+01:00

tiarna,
what I was trying to be, was absolutely honest.
Absolute rights or absolute wrongs do not come into it, nor should it detract from the issue Alec raised, I am saying this not him.
Never in my life was I too perturbed about republicans taking over houses. This has nothing to do with double standards it has to do with the reality of guerrilla warfare nothing else.
However, I do genuinely empathize with Peadar, why would I not?

FPerry You talk of Republican's taking house&...

2011-06-06T00:16:12.946+01:00

FPerry

You talk of Republican's taking house's over as Orangemen talk of traditional routes --its not an absolute right.

The blogg is about hostile impact on children and if there is any genuine concern for the welbeing of children then we cannot look at in terms of whose agenda is best served by raising or dropping the issue. If its about police bashing then Alec should have said that up front and not use his own kids to serve his political agenda against them. But I did not take that from the blogg that that was Alec's intent or reason for blogging.

My understanding was that Alec was reflecting on how a stop and search impacted upon his kids. Peadar, rightly, said how his kids were impacted --and there is a bit of a gawfaw --oh but that was Republicans did that --that must never be discussed or mentioned --it detracts from how bad the cops are.

I don't buy that or the double standards being advanced in this blogg --if it is wrong for cops to do then it is wrong for republicans to do. Being a member of an armed republican group or whatever is not licence to do what it is unacceptible for cops to do.

When I talk of a changed world I am talking of standards recognised today that are considered abusive or harmfull to children but were common place in the past --those days are over and republicans need observe human rights and dignity also --not just police or the state.

As for why the cops are behaving as they are --it's a tit for tat game that the RUC and Republicans played for years. I can't but help think that if there were not those hell bent on starting a killing war all over again the harrassment would not be happening. That is not justification for it happening but lets be real there will be consequences or response from the cops over armed groups targeting them.

Many Republicans are war weary and seeing Alec McCrory getting gripped at the side of the road is a way of life many old timers probably do not want to revisit, so it may serve that purpose alone. I don't think recent violence serves anyone other than brit intel and the security industry generated around it --and the best republicans can expect is getting hassled --it wont get a United Ireland.

Ryan

That Diplock Courts and emergency legislation are all alive and well should be a matter of concern most of all to Sinn Fein up at Stormont -I do not get the impression that it is --in fact I have at times thought some SF MLA's have become more Finchley than Thatcher.

I think Alec should be making a stink to the relevant SF MLA's on the Policing Board or Justice Committee --he will probably get the same response as any of the best of Conservatives ever gave in the old days, the silent brush off.

It is hard to make any effective point about these things while there are those out there creating the perception of danger which becomes the excuse for these measures.

Tiarna

Tiarna, republicans have taken over houses for as ...

2011-06-05T22:55:15.044+01:00

Tiarna,
republicans have taken over houses for as long as I can remember.
What happened to Alec Mc Crory and his family is an entirely differnet scenario.
The state forces and republicans who adhere to everything the state filter out to us say we have moved on? ambigious but what the heck.
So why are they behaving like this?

Interested,
Alec hit the nail on the head when he said it is the state that is dishing out the intimidation in his case.
According to your former posts this is something you expect from republicans so whats the problem?

can we get back to the main point of this article ...

2011-06-05T22:49:31.424+01:00

can we get back to the main point of this article which is that in 2011 the police are still allowed to just pull someone over and search his car and his person for no reason other than they can. And its not just republicans I know two non political young guys who had the same thing happen to them on the Falls while I was visiting.
Pretty terrifying stuff.

Alec- What happened to your-self and your childre...

2011-06-05T21:21:50.609+01:00

Alec-

What happened to your-self and your
children was a disgrace- no matter
what else is going on- these p.s.n.i should be made accountable
for their anti police conduct- i know some people can get used to bad policing- we live in Ireland after all-but none of us wants to see the next generation getting cop
bullied-report them- will it make any difference- i hope it does-

I hope you don't pick me up the wrong way- but some p.s.n.i see people thought as dissidents- easy targets for abuse.

Alec You qualify between the two forms of traumat...

2011-06-05T20:02:05.801+01:00

Alec

You qualify between the two forms of traumaticing of children --your complaint is that the PSNI do it but should not --and a sort of so if republicans do it --they do not have to have regard to the 'law' as the PSNI --if we strip it down --you said, "But the is one crucial differnece: .... My children have commited no crime under the "law" to warrant such tretment."

On one hand you are conceding, reluctantly, ok Peadar's kids were traumatised by the forced entry and on the other (AND HERE IS THE DIFFERENCE) --Republicna are not governed by any law or regard for welbeing for kids.

We are in a very different world than we were in the 1970's or 80's -these Alphabet groups cannot continue to fight a conflict based upon the norms & standards of the last conflict. Ireland, the world and human rights and welfare of children have moved on a long way since those days.

Why do you expect a better standard from your enemy on how they should act in front of your children than you would from Republican Groups or how they should treat other Republicans children?

Being a Republican is not intended as an intention to forfeit your childrens rights and welbeing should any Republican group decide to call to your house without knocking first.

Tiarna