Comments on The Pensive Quill: Lying The Flag

Alfie, Just looking at some of the cases involvin...

2011-08-15T08:42:52.952+01:00

Alfie,

Just looking at some of the cases involving the guards in Cork and Dublin, I think that type of thing happened because there is a culture of it within the force.

The authorities cannot be totally distrusted as nothing would move but it does no harm to carry a large dose of scepticism.

SMH,

Not surprised the Only Our Fibbers Run Free line appealed to you!!

@ Mick Hall RE 'Beware of racial bigots who li...

2011-08-12T03:27:09.522+01:00

@ Mick Hall RE 'Beware of racial bigots who like to stereotype all single parents as black.

For christ sake, the current top tier of the British monarchy were brought up by a single parent, but I doubt the media will be going there.

These disadvantaged communities are currently being vilified for what, shouting out loud they have had enough. Like most of us they want good education for their kids and jobs.'
Dead on RIGHT imo .... esp last paragraph.

@ Marty RE: 'London,s burning FUCKIN GREAT!...

2011-08-12T02:56:07.600+01:00

@ Marty RE: 'London,s burning FUCKIN GREAT!' lolz... said what the many r thinking but perhaps reticent to be so forward and succinct about... It can also be called all the birds have come home to roost, reaping what one has sowed, accident waiting to happen etc etc...
I did consider ringing a friend in london and saying grab a shopping trolley & get me some designer label clothing stat! hahaha

Unfortunately the grim realities underpinning the riots will be lost forever in political rhetoric and bandaid solutions and bullshit... like brixton to now like ireland into the now... like Brendan lillis dying in a cell...

@ Anthony RE 'Only Our Fibbers Run Free' ahahaha but how hideously true

Anthony, I have heard lots of anecdotal evidence ...

2011-08-11T23:26:43.226+01:00

Anthony,

I have heard lots of anecdotal evidence from credible sources that the Gardai in my home town "square" all manner of criminal charges for their family and friends. For example, a few years ago, my brother witnessed three off-duty Gardai batter a neighbour of ours unconscious in a take-away after a night out. The local Gardai squared it. When he regained consciousness the next day, the injured man was offered money not to make a complaint. He agreed. Apparently, his attackers are still members of the Gardai.

My father tells me that I trust the authorities far too much. I suppose he has a point!

Alife, I will not labour the point, however, rep...

2011-08-11T20:55:26.775+01:00

Alife,

I will not labour the point, however, reports indicate that the said gun was inside a sock and not ready for use. Already, the Met's self serving account is quickly unravelling.

Alfie, unless independently verifiable, believe ...

2011-08-11T20:06:04.419+01:00

Alfie,

unless independently verifiable, believe the cops about nothing. Their institutional lying is legendary

'It is the invariable habit of bureaucracies, ...

2011-08-11T20:04:52.090+01:00

'It is the invariable habit of bureaucracies, at all times and everywhere, to assume...that every citizen is a criminal. Their one apparent purpose, pursued with a relentless and furious diligence, is to convert the assumption into a fact. They hunt endlessly for proofs, and, when proofs are lacking, for mere suspicions. The moment they become aware of a definite citizen, John Doe, seeking what is his right under the law, they begin searching feverishly for an excuse for withholding it from him.' - HL Mencken

Alec & Mick, On reflection, I think you are r...

2011-08-11T19:02:00.661+01:00

Alec & Mick,

On reflection, I think you are right. I should have been more cautious given that the Met's initial version of the shooting turned out to be false. A full, independent inquiry ought to be carried out into this shooting and into allegations of agressive policing.

Talk about 'lying the flag' SF are now wel...

2011-08-11T18:52:32.752+01:00

Talk about 'lying the flag' SF are now welcomed at Windsor Park.

I'm curious. Bankers still taking huge bonuse...

2011-08-11T18:51:25.168+01:00

I'm curious.

Bankers still taking huge bonuses,after totally wrecking economies.

M.P.s routinely making false expenses claims.

Police taking numerous bribes from those fiendish journalists, to get personal details including phone, pc and bank details of persons of media interest.

Is it just me, or was the few days hooliganism in England a welcome distraction for those who have most to be ashamed of?

The right are making their move even as we discuss...

2011-08-11T18:36:02.525+01:00

The right are making their move even as we discuss this. Cameron will use it to push back rights and bring responsibility to the fore. He is trying to blame it on gang culture and move it away from poverty. Now we will have an autonomous cultural phenomenon firewalled from the economic structure of society.

I think it will take time to come close to being d...

2011-08-11T18:25:53.031+01:00

I think it will take time to come close to being definitive about this. It seems to be an outburst from the urban poor but which lacks any insurrectionary potential. It is a far cry from the miners' opposition to the State in 1984.

The London blogger Hannah at 'give the feminist a cigarette' offered a succinct observation:

'The moronic fist-pumping from armchair socialists is as infuriating as the blanket condemnation from the right: the rioters are either hailed as heroic freedom-fighters or pilloried as mindless thugs, with no acknowledgment that there were undoubtedly representatives from both groups on the streets, and that many people involved probably committed acts that fell into both categories.'

Where the right is likely to win the battle for interpretation is in the flash nature of the event. If it was sustained over a prolonged timeframe it would probably get a more rounded hearing

"Mark Duggan pulled a loaded pistol on a poli...

2011-08-11T17:42:10.866+01:00

"Mark Duggan pulled a loaded pistol on a police officer."

Alfie

Are you sure about this? True it was what the met and its tame media originally claimed, but they also said Duggan shot at an officer whose life was saved as the bullet hit his radio. We now know this to have been a lie as the bullet found in the radio was police issue.

Maybe the Met acted like-most police forces around the world when dealing with people whom they feel they have a right to abuse, safe in the knowledge that the politicos and media, 9 out of ten times will back them up.

Would anyone have believed Rodney King if his assault by the LA police had not been filmed?

I totally agree with your earlier post that; "the smug, right-wing explanation that the causes are the welfare state and single motherhood just doesn't add up. "

On single parents, the majority of kids brought up in this way do fine, by this I mean they grow up as confused and as good or bad as the rest of us. The overwhelming majority of single parents in the UK come in all classes and races. Beware of racial bigots who like to stereotype all single parents as black.

For christ sake, the current top tier of the British monarchy were brought up by a single parent, but I doubt the media will be going there.

These disadvantaged communities are currently being vilified for what, shouting out loud they have had enough. Like most of us they want good education for their kids and jobs.

When Broadwater farm burned the media and politicians spouted much the same judgemental lies as the the current crop of creeps are doing today.

They do this for one and only one reason, to deflect the blame from themselves. All three of the English MS parties are culpable, Labour for not dealing with the poverty and joblessness despite being in power for over a decade and the tories and Lib dem coalition, with their vicious cuts have made a bad situation even worse.

These are the guilty parties not teenagers who lost the run of themselves, for that is what teenagers do occasionally.

Today history looks back at the broadwater farm riots as necessary; and I have no doubt in years to come what occurred in Tottenham last weekend will be seen in the same light.

Before anyone joins the hang them and flog them brigade, I would remind them, the last time Tottenham burned, Winstone Silcott one of the 'Tottenham Three, 'was stitched up for the murder of PC Blakelock in the most despicable manner, he and two others were sent to prison for years, only to be found innocent. Silcott later received £100K when he accused the Met of fabricating evidence.

Like most of the current youngsters involved in the 'riots' he was no saint, but he did not deserve to be hung out to dry, nor to these kids.

The facts surrounding the shooting are still being...

2011-08-11T17:27:02.632+01:00

The facts surrounding the shooting are still being contested, Alfie. Police claimed initally that they were fired upon which has been discounted by the forensic information. Whatever the facts of the matter the underlying causes of the rioting were political in narture. When 2000 protesters marched on the police station the police refused to awknowledge the protest. Black working class neighbourhoods have been the focus of very agressive policing methods for quite some time. Stop and Search tactics have become a major bone of contention for minorities in London and other major cities.

In the current economic environment it is the poor who are paying the price for the profit driven greed of the rich by having their basic benefits and services slashed. Social unrest does not happen because a group of young marginalised males decide to have some fun.

Alec, "The shooting dead of a young black...

2011-08-11T15:27:22.801+01:00
Alec,

"The shooting dead of a young black man, the spark that ignited the fire, in highly questionable circumstances is conviently forgotten as the focus zooms in on the mob."

Mark Duggan pulled a loaded pistol on a police officer. That much does not seem to be in dispute. I'm not sure what else the cop could have done in that situation. Nevertheless, this case should be thoroughly investigated, for the Met have lied about the details of shootings before. Anyone remember Jean Charles de Menezes?

What occured in London was serious social unrest i...

2011-08-11T13:17:01.623+01:00
What occured in London was serious social unrest involving the young and marginalised in society. The fact there was little or no organisation behind the riots leads one to believe that this was the sponteanous venting of pent up anger and fruastration emnating from large numbers of alienated youth with no jobs, no incomes and no hope. Debilitating inequality, social exclusion, unemployment and poverty all play their part in this rising tide of hopelessness and dispair.

The ruling class is terrified by these events seeing, as it does, the inexplicable disintegration of the social order in to a state of mindless yobbery and anarchy. And the media, controlled by the rich and the privileged, promtes that class view.

The shooting dead of a young black man, the spark that ignited the fire, in highly questionable circumstances is conviently forgotten as the focus zooms in on the mob. Who will articulate the grivances of the dispossesed and disadvantaged? The answers are to be found not in the behaviour of the rioters but in the economic organisation of society.

It is probably true that the recent UK riots canno...

2011-08-11T11:34:38.534+01:00
It is probably true that the recent UK riots cannot be completely blamed on poverty and deprivation. Certainly mindless thuggery and opportunistic thievery played a part. Yet the smug, right-wing explanation that the causes are the welfare state and single motherhood just doesn't add up.

Firstly, from what I've read, unemployment benefit is a fraction of the weekly minimum wage in the UK, which is itself very difficult to live on, so the idea that the dole is an attractive option for young people seems silly. Also, there are plenty of EU countries with more advanced levels of social protection than the UK, such as Sweden and Denmark, and those countries do not have anywhere near the same degree of antisocial behaviour that the UK does.

Secondly, though it does seem to be true that children from single-parent families are more likely to have problems, this might not be due to the fact that there is only one parent in those families. It could well be down to the disadvantages that single parents typically face, such as low income, poor education and a lack of a decent family support network. It would be interesting to read a study of single-parent families that do not have these problems. Of course, the ideal circumstances in which a child should be raised is a stable, two-parent home. What's more, the absence of father figures could plausibly cause problems in young men's development. However, poverty is undeniably factor in all this, particulary in a country that has endured 2 years of austerity and has nothing to show for it.

Nuala, I guess you are right. It would be hard to...

2011-08-11T10:34:11.135+01:00
Nuala,

I guess you are right. It would be hard to describe them as the most class conscious section of the organised working class. The Left need to come up with a solid credible analysis of this phenomenon.

Thats not a real riot in London.could you imagine ...

2011-08-10T22:33:03.433+01:00
Thats not a real riot in London.could you imagine a peeler riding into Ardyone shops on horseback,they would be eating corn beef for a month.. Tottenham have just singed a new blacK Italian striker...Grabatelli...

Mackers, I think Marx would read it as the latter,...

2011-08-10T18:39:13.938+01:00
Mackers,
I think Marx would read it as the latter, lumpen proletariat.
Really cannot see any similarities between what is unfolding in England and recent events in places like Ardoyne. Maybe such things only beome clear when you are one of the 'lads'

Read that piece Anthony,a well written and thought...

2011-08-10T13:16:35.508+01:00
Read that piece Anthony,a well written and thoughtfull piece and nothing I could find fault with,I,d recommend that piece to everyone here to read, thanks a cara for that.

Tain Bo Good to see you back. Capitalist rioters...

2011-08-10T12:48:08.285+01:00
Tain Bo

Good to see you back. Capitalist rioters is one interpretation we could put on it if the Tories are right in saying it is motivated by greed! They run a greed-driven society.

Marty,

I wonder how Marx might have read it. Would he have seen it as a working class rebellion or a lumpenproletarian outburst?

40th ANNIVERSARY OF INTERNMENT Twas 40 summers pa...

2011-08-10T12:08:15.074+01:00
40th ANNIVERSARY OF INTERNMENT
Twas 40 summers past
as they lay in their bed,
dragged from their sleep
with guns to their head
Stoned from their houses
watch them burn to a shell
Belfast and beyond
had just turned to hell
Tortured and beaten
some shot,some slain
with no thought for their families
the grief or the pain
40 years on
That anger is still yearning,
so forgive me today for smiling
As I watch London burning...

Marty, http://thebrokenelbow.com/category/censors...

2011-08-10T10:37:16.363+01:00
Marty,

http://thebrokenelbow.com/category/censorship/

you would appreciate reading this. It leaves little room for an alternative conclusion

Mick as we have said that was what norn iorn was a...

2011-08-10T08:52:02.268+01:00
Mick as we have said that was what norn iorn was all about, a training ground for tatics for what was to come on Englands home turf,and you can bet its the unemployed kids who will suffer the worst, its just not cricket that has the ashes now!