Comments on The Pensive Quill: Theology for Losers.

Fionnchú, thought inducing as always. It is not a ...

2009-10-13T20:54:23.374+01:00

Fionnchú, thought inducing as always. It is not a question of my being particularly doughty. I just see no evidence whatsoever for the existence of god. It is all speculative.

I suspect many of us (if not doughty AM) are more ...

2009-10-12T22:54:25.276+01:00

I suspect many of us (if not doughty AM) are more agnostic than atheist deep down if only as Seán Mór limns it well as "reluctant" to wish there might be another life, another realm beyond this vale of tears. In my reading of "God Delusion," even Dawkins averred as much, however childish or atavistic he regarded this regression.

AM, your reading of Sheed's remarkable; I admire your knack for giving him as good as he got at Hyde Park. His translation, if anyone's interested, of Augustine's Confessions I still think captured the Latin best.

I recommend to readers here an Irish agnostic who approached post-war, mid-20 c Catholic Ireland with maturity, critique, and balance, the Waterford-born poet-journalist Seán Dunne's "The Road to Silence."; as one who came of age in the Cork Marxist movement, his spiritual journey as an unbeliever towards a principled interest in--yet detachment from-- a mystical longing filtered through Christianity (and other faiths he could not accept) today may reward you. In very few pages, he sums up what for many of us who grew up the latter part of last century recall as a now vanished monolith.

For another fair-minded survey of how this happened so fast and why, see also Malachi O'Doherty's recent memoir "I Was a Teenaged Catholic" on 50s/60s Belfast & 70s India and his study "Empty Pulpits: Ireland's Retreat from Religion" for more context. (I reviewed these three books, and Dawkins, on my blog and Amazon.)

I love that comment about moving from militant ath...

2009-10-12T02:49:22.302+01:00

I love that comment about moving from militant atheism to relaxed agnosticism - I myself have moved from that militant atheism to a complete lack of interest in even discussing religion because I am too busy to waste time on it or perhaps I have just reached an even more comfortable "don'tcareism"

One thought persists; What if the hokey cokey IS w...

2009-10-11T17:23:53.073+01:00

One thought persists; What if the hokey cokey IS what it's all about. mmm...Perplexing.

You say it clearly,Doc. I am working on learning...

2009-10-10T12:55:15.476+01:00

You say it clearly,Doc. I am working on learning about your conflict,not defining it. I look for definitions from the participants-history. You're a priceless teacher for your point of view-it's what most PhDs wish they did as well. Mick, I'm near 70 and it's good to hear your POV on age etc. My Native American friends share my view that every day is a good day to die,nothing lives forever-thank goodness-the boredom would be huge!

"At the end of it all Frank Sheed dismissed t...

2009-10-10T07:40:32.425+01:00

"At the end of it all Frank Sheed dismissed those who didn’t believe what he did as not living in the real world."

We are all a little guilty of that.

It seems to me the religious folk are a lot like the Leninists, it started well, but has been down hill ever since, broken eggs shells all the way and not a sight of an omelet let alone a taste.

Once the state insists on indoctrinating children with such crap, you can be sure the game is up, no matter what the blind 'faith', the powerful will find a shaman to bless their wicked and often vile acts.

Mark

Once you get past 60 you regard all that went before as your youth and what is to come a second childhood, all be it with aches and pains, happy days.

Whilst I am expressing the joys of getting older, I have noticed many older folk become 'less,' not more religious with old age, which cheers me up no end as it seems they have no need of such total crap.

uilodomhnaill, political science whatevers are of ...

2009-10-10T07:04:33.425+01:00

uilodomhnaill, political science whatevers are of no consequence here whatsoever. Up to you how you define our conflict.

People usually hold irrational beliefs of some kin...

2009-10-10T01:04:23.575+01:00

People usually hold irrational beliefs of some kind. They may abandon the christianity of their upbringing for eastern mysticism. Or they may abandon belief in a deity and take up a political philosophy. They may give up their religious indoctrination intellectually but hold on to it emotionally and transfer it elsewhere. Realistically their rejection of religious indoctrination has created a vacancy that needs to be filled rather than a unique opportunity to grow, however painful that growth may be. For most people belief precedes reality and therefore reality will always take second place. People tend to respond to a situation based on their belief system and act out accordingly rather than take a realistic assessment of what needs to be done. In that sense wild animals have got the edge on us humans! Religion get trashed too often too easily by people who need to question their own equally absurd beliefs. People live their lives in various degrees of denial about what they have done in the past and what they could do in the present. It is not at all unusual for a person or a group of people to rigidly hold on to a belief system that has long since ceased to serve them in any meaningful way. Most people will happily hitch a ride to oblivion on the back of beliefs which require nothing more than dumb adherence while convincing themselves they know what is what and are doing the right thing. It is not God that is the saviour of us all, ignorance is!

I forgot you are a political science major. I didn...

2009-10-09T23:44:47.394+01:00

I forgot you are a political science major. I didn't intend to define your country's conflict,just reflecting a personal view of politics as a form of secular religion--an old anarchist proposition

Anthony, I've lived a life of religious weird...

2009-10-09T22:04:09.182+01:00

Anthony,

I've lived a life of religious weirdness, including my father being involved in 'evangelising' to prisoners on both sides in the blocks.

I have no love for any religion, while respecting many deeply involved in all kinds of them. Many people that get drawn in end up doing decency they would never have considered. Though,I do not 'believe' - not the tiniest smidgen.

However, while in my youth (under 30 - that is youth isn't it?) I'd have been a militant aethist, middle age has resulted in considered relaxed agnosticism.

I can't prove it, none of them can - score draw.

Some beliefs lead to people doing better than they'd have done otherwise - I'll not begrudge that for a second.

uilodomhnaill, there is plenty of religious nonsen...

2009-10-09T20:33:35.175+01:00

uilodomhnaill, there is plenty of religious nonsense here but that is not behind the conflict.

Seán Mór, there is no one size fits all so it figures that some will face death better with religion and others would not benefit from it. I don't care how the religious go out. If they want last rites or clerical comfort, that's their choice. So long as I don't have to be lumbered with it.

Jim, I might read him at some point. I simply have no time to read the stuff that is already in front of me. But whatever it is he has to offer there are no invisible men.

As an old born again blasphemer I concur with much...

2009-10-09T16:36:26.104+01:00

As an old born again blasphemer I concur with much you have written regards religion. However, my thinking has been really challenged by the writings of the late John Moriarty - http://www.johnmoriarty.info/

I hesitate to describe John as religious, Catholic or spiritual.I find the word "spiritual" to be such a cop out. It reminds me of friends who describe themselves as "nationalist but not republican". Spiritual but not religious!?

Moriarty, steeped in Darwinism and all contemporary scientific thinking, pushed himself to explore what it means to be alive on this planet. He walked the talk - gave up the cozy, well-fed academic career, returned to Ireland in the early 70;s, worked like a dog on the land and pushed himself to profound mental extremities.

However, this was no religious "nutjob". He was a real, red blooded Man with everything that comes with it. He asked questions and never came to "The Answer". He looks to the past for clues of how to move forward trapped in the "survival machine" of the human form (as Richard Dawkins would put it).

His writings are amongst the most powerful and challenging that I have ever read. I strongly recommend his books for a mental workout. In particular, his autobiography "Nostos" is truly Homeric!

John was also a wonderful speaker. Two video links here:

http://video.google.com/videosearch?q=john+moriarty&hl=en&emb=0&aq=f#

http://video.google.com/videosearch?q=john+moriarty&hl=en&emb=0&aq=f#

I'm a 'reluctant atheist' myself. I kn...

2009-10-09T13:39:37.961+01:00

I'm a 'reluctant atheist' myself. I know there's no heaven, but I still wish there was.

Mind you, being an atheist doesn't automatically mean you're going to live a fuller life... or face death with any more courage than a religious person (the opposite in my case I'd say).

As Woody Allen once said (I think)... I'm not afraid to die, I just don't want to be there when it happens.

No cultural gulf here, Doc! The saddest thing tha...

2009-10-08T23:07:20.831+01:00

No cultural gulf here, Doc! The saddest thing that I have read on the situation in the beautiful land that you live in is the religious nonsense which has promoted such evil for so many years. Wonder what the culture that existed for about 9,000 years before the Celts arrived was like--do you?