Comments on The Pensive Quill: Pushing Back Regressive Policing

Westie: Your last comment shows that you are hardl...

2009-09-12T13:10:36.136+01:00

Westie: Your last comment shows that you are hardly insular,from my point of view. You have it exact that police deficits are seldom if ever the odd bad apple. Police, like prisons are social organizations which are extremely purposeful and can be interpreted as the will of the most powerful element in which ever culture they are functioning in. The greatest danger in them both, in my estimation, is that they will become political tools,rather than well trained and disciplined legal tools. Your comment about the make up of the provisional IRA may well be what I found so very confusing in trying to learn about this most recent chapter in Irish history. I was basically looking at the IRA from the perspective of its founding ideals,and not just an ad hoc reactionary/angry organization of reform. By reading Moloney's two wonderful books and Dr. McIntrye's, I have been able to more clearly see how much more like the US young angry "New Left" it was than like the historical IRA. Thank you for your honest response. My goal is historical understanding.

Uilodomhnaill Agree that policing throws up the s...

2009-09-12T10:02:36.992+01:00

Uilodomhnaill

Agree that policing throws up the same problems and issues the world over, but I'm not really too interested in the world over to be honest. Call me insular or parochial or many other things but I can only go on experience of the past and concern for the future in Ireland.

What we all experienced in the North during the seventies and eighties was anyhing but policing - it was onslaught and assault on a daily basis in Republican/Nationalist areas, and it was never a case of the odd bad apple - it was a planned and deliberate strategy, and I'd say the RUC's deeds alone influenced many a young man to join the Provisional Movement during those years.

Again, I will say, from my perspective, I think it is changing and, hopefully will continue to do so. We're not talking about utopia here where people will like the peelers, it's about getting to the stage where you don't look at them and think, 'UVF or UDA'? Of course. we all want it to be an all Ireland police situation, but this is the the shorter term objective.

Slán

Westie

Westie: Unless the Eastern Six are on the moon,po...

2009-09-11T02:06:09.269+01:00

Westie: Unless the Eastern Six are on the moon,policing is not nearly so complex as one might think. Mostly the same people aspire to be coppers everywhere. I've known some subversives to sneak in successfully,but in general, the police are the enforcers of real power in any culture,from tribal to modern. Unless one believes that real power there will "devolve"---that would be Great Britain, not Sinn Fein,nor the DUP--today and yesterday. The joining of opposites is intended to hoodwink us all, there as well as here!!

Larry Just catchn up with the site after a week o...

2009-09-10T21:37:31.123+01:00

Larry

Just catchn up with the site after a week or two. Busy man!

Policing is a very difficult issue in general (not just in Ireland), and like most things that are difficult and complex, it takes a while to change.

I personally think that Policing has changed in the North, I think Patton got that ball rolling and whilst I totally agree that it is far from perfect, I believe that the devolution of policing and justice will bring about further change for the better, but only through time.

let's be honest, the old RUC was a loyalist/unionist legal paramilitary force that took great delight in turning every day policing into an attack on anything that resembled nationalism, let alone republicanism. I don't see it as such today. I have been at a couple of DPP meeytings and the local commanding ranks get challenged on anything of interest and concern to the local community - and have been forced to put in place monitoring and feedback mechanisms so that there is evidence about their progress or lack of it on these issues.

On the bigger picture, SF did raise the issue of detention at the time of the Duffy arrest but not surprisingly, didn't go out on a limb for him as an individual, as they would have done a few years earlier. But that is the reality of the change in paths that both parties have chosen - SF are for improving and normalising policing on a continuous basis - having already commenced but with lots more to be done - whilst those who still pursue the armed conflict would like to kill as many as possible as they simply see them as many of us once would have viewed the RUC.

I don't share that view and hope I feel even stronger in that belief as time moves ahead.

Slan

Westie

Doc: With respect,just finished your book and Mol...

2009-09-03T01:16:43.298+01:00

Doc: With respect,just finished your book and Moloney's,"Paisley". Up to speed now,thank you for your patience. Even the Pigs have a pecking order,eh? Best

Anthony: Please consider and critique this analysi...

2009-09-02T01:33:18.561+01:00

Anthony: Please consider and critique this analysis. In most cultures the police are of the particular culture-neither more nor less progressive than it is,except that their job is to enforce law which makes them most often in conflict with the people with whom they come in contact. The northeastern six counties of Eire have a significant part of their culture which considers it valid to physically attack the other part based on a belief in the basic inferiority of that other part. A third party, Britain, believes that they are superior to both and chooses the police leadership. So, only if one agrees to the British presumption of ultimate superiority, could one assume that the police might be more progressive than the general culture,and further only if one believes that the leadership can ultimately control the rank and file of the police. Otherwise the police will only reflect the culture that they are of. Tell me whether I'm learning or still missing the point,please.

Just read your piece in Republican News-want you t...

2009-09-01T01:25:17.176+01:00

Just read your piece in Republican News-want you to know that I think it beyond reason to classify you as a felon and these 600 barbarians as ?????

Progressive Policing is pure doublespeak,in my exp...

2009-08-29T18:24:23.622+01:00

Progressive Policing is pure doublespeak,in my experience! All policing winds up to be regressive even with the best of intentions.

Not overly familiar with Suzanne Breen but the imp...

2009-08-29T13:57:40.078+01:00

Not overly familiar with Suzanne Breen but the impression I get from this case with the RIRA source is that her position reminded me a little of the Patsy Mc Cardle [journalist] one with the Provos.."this is Patsy Mc Cardle for Downtown Radio in S.Armagh somewhere near the border-and there's a big bomb just gone off,or it will do any second." I think this is what was getting on the PSNI goat. Also the RIRA being infiltrated to the hilt and a conduit for the syphoning off of any 'crazies' and a weaning ground for hanger on touts, they may fear for the exposure of their assets to other 'assets' lol AGAIN
What's more is whilst the protection of journalists is extremely necessary the sensationalism type journalism of her articles [ I was shopping when my mobile rang and a man said he was from the RIRA and ...bla bla bla.]are seen as maybe being overly favourable to the RIRA rather than totally objective. What we really need is decent policing and human rights in the North. To this end it's crucial that she was defended to the hilt in the interests of curbing PSNI excesses[they need no excuse] and journalistic freedoms. But the papers and t.v. are hardly full of the 28 days detention or outrage at the Duffy case where one moment he was being released through lack of evidence after two weeks detention and the next he was being charged. There's ample evidence we still have a Lurgan PSNI detective unit in 2009 who are basicaly UVF men on a salary. Not a peep out of journalists or SF on this. No historical investigation or expose reporting here!!
I realise that Duffy is as popular politically and topically as a turd in an industrial bread mix-however that's the battleground where the human rights and policing issues need to be challenged. Not on the right of an attractive prominent journalist to be well enough informed/sourced to be able to take phone calls from 'terrorists' while getting her crusty bread+tights on the way home from the office.
What happened to all the human rights and pressure groups who would highlight these issues? Are all journalists now so neutered that a programe like spotlight or panarama can't take a look at the police activity and ethical conduct? Or are people guilty by media attention depending on who they are or percieved to be? Maybe journalist ethics and human rights apply only to journalists?
Come in Westie, we need a SF that if determined to be engaged in N Ireland community politics fully needs to be an honest broker between the PSNI and the nationalists. Not a case of if you can't beat them JOIN THEM. There's no need to be a supporter of militant Republicanism in order to forcefully refute the right of the PSNI to do as it wishes. It's progression we need not another surrender...or has that practice set in right across the board outside of personal, political or professional interests?

nothing funny to say about this piece Anthony, rea...

2009-08-29T12:36:41.174+01:00

nothing funny to say about this piece Anthony, real scary shit,and I fear there may be worse to come yet.Marty F,p,s.,mind you I saw a picture in a brit fort once and I kinda stole the image as my own, it showed a wee mouse looking skyward and a huge evil looking eagle with outstretched talons was about to snatch the wee fella and what was the wee mouse doing yip he was giving the eagle a defiant two finger salute.

'policing' during the 'reign of the Pr...

2009-08-29T01:55:14.434+01:00

'policing' during the 'reign of the Provie's' often took the form of 6 inch nails and 6-packs....surely we are in a much better place now (if even only on a 'civil administration' level)??? I think that 'policing' at a community level should not be politicized ....maybe??? The point was always made that even so-called 'top-republicans' had to make their way to the 'cop-shop' if they needed police reports for insurance claims on stolen cars,etc....