Comments on The Pensive Quill: Bombing Omagh

John & Alfie, Thought you might find this fro...

2011-06-05T22:42:29.158+01:00

John & Alfie,

Thought you might find this from Ed Moloney interesting:

Gaddafi’s surrender in 2004 to George W Bush’s demand that he dismantle his ‘weapons of mass destruction’, as overt a genuflection towards Washington as it was possible to make.

The other act, which happened years before, is less well known. When the IRA (http://thebrokenelbow.files.wordpress.com/2011/02/semtex1.jpg&h=311) made the arrangements for the arms shipments of the 1980’s, Joe Cahill, who had been chief of staff when the relationship with Gaddafi began, accepted a Libyan insistence that the real identities of the IRA personnel involved in the operation, from leaders like ‘Slab’ Murphy and Micky McKevitt through to the foot soldiers who had been sent to Libya to train in the weaponry, be recorded by the Libyans. Each man was obliged to fill out a form detailing exactly who they were which was then handed over to Libya intelligence. When Gaddafi began to repair relations with Britain in the early to mid 1990’s he handed over those details to MI6 along with the manifest of weapons shipped from his armories, a concession that facilitated the demand during the peace process that the IRA decommission its weapons. Muammar did the dirt on his old mates, in other words, to save his skin.

John McGirr, "But those who recognise him as...

2011-05-12T02:10:24.661+01:00

John McGirr,

"But those who recognise him as such are no better"

Propaganda aside, anyone with a television or access to the internet can arrive at an independent judgement on the Gadaffi regime and it is not good. The despotic recognition is global rather than purely governmental.

"I'd better not tell you that I agree with much of what Mahmoud Ahmadinejad says too"

This reinforces my belief that your world view is guided on the principle that, as pointed out previously, your enemy's enemy is your friend. Accordingly I could hazard a guess that you view Mugabe as a stand up guy also.

"I suppose I shall soon be accused of being pro-Islamic)."

Why should this be a problem?

Robert, 'The problem with your enemy's en...

2011-05-10T23:22:49.874+01:00

Robert,

'The problem with your enemy's enemy is that he is a recognised despot and international pariah.'

But those who recognise him as such are no better. Of course if they go into the rogue nuclear state of Israel then their moral justification would increase.

"I’m with Louis Farrakhan on this one."

'Not the sort of admission one should be making in public John!'

I'd better not tell you that I agree with much of what Mahmoud Ahmadinejad says too, (I suppose I shall soon be accused of being pro-Islamic).

'What's your opinion on the UFO, `The Wheel' that was to appear last month according to his predictions?'

I didn't hear about that one, I shall google it, and learn more!

John ‘So at agree that late-term abortions are no...

2011-05-08T18:58:10.756+01:00

John

‘So at agree that late-term abortions are no different to infanticide.’

I don’t think we agree on that at all. Where it is a perfectly healthy normal baby yes. But how often would that happen? How do you feel about the two unborn who were killed at Omagh? Is that infanticide?

‘Sorry to hear that.’

She was strange John with very fixed views but I really liked her. She made her decision and I wish it had been otherwise.

John McGirr, "Gadhafi is not an enemy of Ire...

2011-05-08T18:04:59.968+01:00

John McGirr,

"Gadhafi is not an enemy of Ireland, unlike some of those opposing him."

There are echos of the arab proverb, `the enemy of my enemy is my friend' in much of your debate with Alfie. The problem with your enemy's enemy is that he is a recognised despot and international pariah. That he is not, in your opinion, an enemy of Ireland is hardly a basis upon which the tyrannical nature of his regime in Libya can be justified or should be supported by people here. Indeed as I recall there were three Irish nationals killed at Lockerbie.

"I’m with Louis Farrakhan on this one."

Not the sort of admission one should be making in public John!
What's your opinion on the UFO, `The Wheel' that was to appear last month according to his predictions?

John, ‘What about Syria, do you want your allies ...

2011-05-07T15:34:22.498+01:00

John,

‘What about Syria, do you want your allies to bomb them too?’

They are hardly any more the friends of Alfie than George Weigel is your friend. Yet you cite him approvingly. He is a theologian of war against other nations.

‘ At least Gaddafi helped the Irish Nation in its time of need.’

He didn’t. He helped the IRA. And of course when it suited him he didn’t. Hitler helped the ‘Irish nation’ in that sense. Didn’t make him any less repressive

‘Saddam Hussein was murdered by a kangaroo court set up by a puppet state established and supervised by war criminals. Ronan Kerr was executed for being a member of a British paramilitary police force. No comparison.’

In terms of culpability for repression there is no comparison between Ronan Kerr and Saddam Hussein. The latter was a big time major league war criminal. I didn’t agree with his execution but that is besides the point.

Alfie

‘I just go with what makes sense to me. Atheism does, Christianity doesn't.’

Nor any other religion for that matter. I would believe in god immediately if there was a god to believe in. Just makes no sense to me. And while atheism doesn’t give us the answers to everything it does not have to explain the ridiculous.

Alfie ‘If the situation in Syria gets worse and ...

2011-05-07T09:07:27.078+01:00

Alfie

‘If the situation in Syria gets worse and the government there are
killing thousands of civilians and threatening to raze cities, then
then the West (or preferably the UN) ought to intervene if it can.’

But the UN is the West. And the five big Powers never make decisions that are not political and are humanitarian.

‘I believe the UN should have intervened in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict long ago. Israel's brutal war on Gaza should have been stopped by force if necessary.’

I have felt this myself. But we know it will not happen.

The issue in my mind is that if human rights are to be universally protected how could such a position be reached? If one man is imprisoned unjustly in some far off place should the west bomb it? At present I think intervention is supposed to be used to stop genocide not to implement regime change or impose solutions to problems of internal strife.

Alfie, we live in a world where good motives alon...

2011-05-07T07:52:10.897+01:00

Alfie,

we live in a world where good motives alone seldom get things done.

Gadaffi attacks on civilians should have been stopped. And if the only way to prevent them is Western intervention then so be it. This type of argument was made by Fred Halliday and his obit on TPQ was the subject of some discussion. But who should protect the civilians from the attacks from Western interventionism? We know for certain that regime change figures in the interventionists' considerations and once the new regime does what the one replaced did there will be no intervention.

The consequence of an all out anti-interventionist stance is Rwanda.

Anthony, But don't you think that Gaddafi had...

2011-05-06T21:48:59.525+01:00

Anthony,

But don't you think that Gaddafi had to be stopped from razing Benghazi and killing more civilians even if the motives of those Western governments who would be stopping him were selfish?

Alfie ‘What do you think of the intervention in L...

2011-05-06T20:29:45.572+01:00

Alfie

‘What do you think of the intervention in Libya?’

I instinctively distrust all Western military interventions. If they intervened because their own people demanded that they do so - against what they (Western governments) wanted - to protect civilians rather than interests I could go along with it. But they tend to intervene in spite of the wishes of their own people who suspect they are really only about going to war and little else. Who really believes the US is interested in promoting human rights? When they all failed to intervene in Rwanda I simply refused to buy into humanitarian military interventionism. But the issues pertaining to it are more complex than much of the discussion allows for. In principle the major powers should be forced to intervene in spite of themselves by their own people as an act of international solidarity with those on whose behalf the intervention would be made. But when is that ever going to happen?

Larry,

Saw it and thought it resembled a caricature. While totally at odds with the case I have heard it presented much better. I feel sad that some young person could be motivated into losing their life or take somebody else's over that. And yet we were all there.

‘Physical force nationalism is over.’

I wish it were true. I think there will always be a self replicating strain. But that doesn’t amount to republicanism having a future.

John, the same thing was said about Solidarity, ...

2011-05-02T10:45:22.260+01:00

John,

the same thing was said about Solidarity, that it was winded up by the CIA. I am always wary about that type of explanation. It fails to explain the deep indigenous dissatisfaction that exists towards the regimes that govern them.

John, "But the anti-Libyan forces are sti...

2011-05-01T23:05:56.836+01:00
John,

"But the anti-Libyan forces are stirred up and controlled by the CIA."

The rebels are not anti-Libya; they are anti-Gaddafi. From what I've seen, heard and read of them, they were inspired by the recent revolutions in other Arab countries and decided to rise up against the repressive, antidemocratic regime in their own country. I don't think the rebels needed any stirring up from the CIA, nor have I seen evidence that this took place, though the US may now be supplying them with weapons. But wasn't Gaddafi claiming a few weeks ago that the rebels were actually foreign Al-Qaeda fighters and local youths high on hallucinogenic drugs?

Human Rights Watch has documented the use of cluster bombs in Misrata by Gaddafi's forces. Perhaps over a thousand civilians were killed by his brutal counterinsurgency and I am certain that if the West had not acted before his forces reached Benghazi, Gaddafi would have killed thousands more.

"Why pick on Libya with all the hundreds of similar cases? If you want to see a country that is even worse, look to ‘Israel’ where European Jews are wiping out an indigenous population, in breach of all law."

If there are worse situations in other countries - including Israel/Palestine - where mass slaughter of civilians is taking place or is imminent, then I think the UN should intervene if it can.

"So you don’t like Farrakhan. ... I prefer to go by what is said, rather than attack the person saying it."

Indeed, you are right; I shouldn't have insulted Farrakhan. It's just that a lot of what he says seems crazy to me. His remarks on Libya contained a lot of rhetoric, but little in the way of facts to back it up. It is true that Gaddafi has invested some of the oil revenues back into Libya, but much of the country, especially the east, remains impoverished. It must also be said that Gaddafi used a significant proportion of these revenues to enrich himself and his family. More importantly though, Gaddafi established a corrupt, repressive dictatorship in Libya. His security forces arrest, torture and sometimes assassinate dissidents. So the people of Libya have good reasons to be "dissatisfied".

"See Terence MacSwiney’s ‘Principles of Freedom’ where the first chapter answers this. It is very short and and very important."

OK, I will read it.

Alfie, ‘… there are independent news organisation...

2011-05-01T00:35:26.328+01:00
Alfie,

‘… there are independent news organisations and journalists on the ground in Libya who have seen and documented the carnage.’

But the anti-Libyan forces are stirred up and controlled by the CIA. Why pick on Libya with all the hundreds of similar cases? If you want to see a country that is even worse, look to ‘Israel’ where European Jews are wiping out an indigenous population, in breach of all law.

"Do you remember when St Patrick’s day was brought forward a week, so as to bomb Iraq on schedule?"

‘Unfortunately, I was ill at the time, so I don't remember anything about that. A Google search revealed nothing - could you tell me more?’

The treacherous cabal, of Adams and McGuinness and co, were feted in New York a week early to enable the US to bomb Iraq on schedule.

"I’m with Louis Farrakhan on this one."

You're siding with a rabidly anti-Semitic, egotistical loon. Then again, you are defending Gaddafi...'

Yes. So you don’t like Farrakhan. But I hope you listened to him. Not sure of the relevance of him being supposedly ‘anti-Semitic’? Either what he is saying is true or false. I prefer to go by what is said, rather than attack the person saying it.

‘What does the term 'Irish freedom' mean for you, John?’

See Terence MacSwiney’s ‘Principles of Freedom’ where the first chapter answers this. It is very short and and very important.

http://www.gutenberg.org/files/13132/13132-h/13132-h.htm

John, "Do you remember Saddam’s ‘weapons ...

2011-04-28T12:50:45.183+01:00
John,

"Do you remember Saddam’s ‘weapons of mass destruction’?"

Of course, but there are independent news organisations and journalists on the ground in Libya who have seen and documented the carnage. Robert Fisk and Patrick Cockburn are against the intervention, but they do not deny the brutality Gaddafi has visited on his own people.

"Do you remember when St Patrick’s day was brought forward a week, so as to bomb Iraq on schedule?"

Unfortunately, I was ill at the time, so I don't remember anything about that. A Google search revealed nothing - could you tell me more?

"Why do you believe reports from a few self-interested nations about Libya, when Russian satellites contradict their lies?"

I believe respected, independent newspapers like The Guardian and The Irish Times rather than a UFO website and a discredited Russian news station that provide no evidence whatsoever to support their claims. I mean, Russia Today is a pro-Kremlin version of Fox News.

"I’m with Louis Farrakhan on this one."

You're siding with a rabidly anti-Semitic, egotistical loon. Then again, you are defending Gaddafi...

"Gadhafi is not an enemy of Ireland, unlike some of those opposing him."

But he is undoubtedly a brutal enemy of the people of Libya.

"I will never understand Irishmen (and women, for my pc friends) who want to pursue wars against small nations abroad and think it wrong to fight for their own freedom."

What does the term 'Irish freedom' mean for you, John? Is it the ability of the people to make their own decisions or is it forcing another war on this country regardless of the people's wishes? I don't think you'll ever be happy until the Irish people are doing what they're told by your "allies".

Alfie, ‘If the situation in Syria gets worse and ...

2011-04-27T21:08:37.718+01:00
Alfie,

‘If the situation in Syria gets worse and the government there are killing thousands of civilians and threatening to raze cities, then then the West (or preferably the UN) ought to intervene if it can.’

Do you remember Saddam’s ‘weapons of mass destruction’? Do you remember when St Patrick’s day was brought forward a week, so as to bomb Iraq on schedule? Why do you believe reports from a few self-interested nations about Libya, when Russian satellites contradict their lies?

http://www.ufo-blogger.com/2011/03/libya-war-us-invading-libya-for-oil.html

‘I believe the UN should have intervened in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict long ago. Israel's brutal war on Gaza should have been stopped by force if necessary.’

But of course that will never happen, ‘Israel’ is not bound by international laws.

I’m with Louis Farrakhan on this one. Listen to the same link and he exposes the lies about Gadhafi and the real intentions of those in their illegal military exploits.

Gadhafi is not an enemy of Ireland, unlike some of those opposing him. I will never understand Irishmen (and women, for my pc friends) who want to pursue wars against small nations abroad and think it wrong to fight for their own freedom. (Oh, I forgot, we are free here, so says MH.) Victory to the oppressed nations, victory for a free Ireland, victory to Gadhafi!

John, "What about Syria, do you want your...

2011-04-27T14:20:48.082+01:00
John,

"What about Syria, do you want your allies to bomb them too?"

If the situation in Syria gets worse and the government there are killing thousands of civilians and threatening to raze cities, then then the West (or preferably the UN) ought to intervene if it can.

"Or why not bomb the Jewish State to prevent its further holocaust of the Palestinian people?"

I believe the UN should have intervened in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict long ago. Israel's brutal war on Gaza should have been stopped by force if necessary.

Re late-term abortions:

"Obama not only supports this, but says that children born can be left to die."

I'm not a big fan of Obama, but my understanding is that, like Anthony, he only supports late-term abortions where the physical health of the mother is seriously at risk. When he was a state senator in Illinois, he opposed so-called "born alive" legislation, which would have extended the law's protection to any aborted foetus that shows any sign of life, even if doctors are certain that it cannot survive. Obama stated that he would have supported legislation if it were framed in a way that did not pose a threat to abortion rights granted by the Supreme Court's Roe v. Wade decision. In any event, one could argue that protection already existed for viable foetuses in Illinois law, for it has long stated that if an abortion is performed when the foetus is deemed to be viable, the doctor must:

1)Choose the method of abortion least likely to harm the foetus.
2)Have in attendance a second doctor who can immediately take over care of the child if it's born alive.
3)Use every available means to keep any born-alive child living and healthy.

Source: Factcheck.org

Nevertheless, I find late-term abortions of viable foetuses immoral. There would have to be a serious physical risk to the mother's life for me to condone one; even then, I think every effort must be made to save the foetus.

"Saddam Hussein was murdered by a kangaroo court set up by a puppet state established and supervised by war criminals. Ronan Kerr was executed for being a member of a British paramilitary police force. No comparison."

Firstly, that "puppet state" is immeasurably more democratic and representative than Saddam's brutal regime, though I think hanging him was wrong. Secondly, Ronan Kerr and the police force of which he was a member have far more support amongst the nationalist and republican communities in the North than your "allies". But you don't care for such profane notions as democracy, do you?

Alfie, ‘How far the Libyan intervention should go...

2011-04-26T22:34:34.118+01:00
Alfie,

‘How far the Libyan intervention should go is another matter. I am inclined to think that the best outcome for Libya would be actively assisting the rebels in removing Gaddafi and his regime.’

What about Syria, do you want your allies to bomb them too? Or why not bomb the Jewish State to prevent its further holocaust of the Palestinian people? At least Gaddafi helped the Irish Nation in its time of need.

‘I would agree with you and Anthony about late-term abortions.’

I think any sane person must reject this. Obama not only supports this, but says that children born can be left to die. Maybe we should be bombing the USA!

‘Surely if Saddam Hussein was murdered, then Ronan Kerr was too?’

Saddam Hussein was murdered by a kangaroo court set up by a puppet state established and supervised by war criminals. Ronan Kerr was executed for being a member of a British paramilitary police force. No comparison.

AM, ‘Which is what I find abhorrent about it.’ So...

2011-04-26T22:10:14.082+01:00
AM,

‘Which is what I find abhorrent about it.’
So at agree that late-term abortions are no different to infanticide.
‘She later took her won life and I never got the chance to speak to her again which was upsetting for its own reasons.’
Sorry to hear that.

Mackers just watched the Easter parade on tv last ...

2011-04-26T12:33:03.194+01:00
Mackers
just watched the Easter parade on tv last night and the threats to everyone.....everyone not in the graveyard in Derry it seems.
Near loughed til i cried. Jim Carey couldn't have written that script. GAA PSNI SF RC church it was great listening. They may be all dodgy enough but these dissidents keep landing in jail. Hard to take it serious.

How thew hell did this thread end up on abortion again?

Physical force nationalism is over, your assertion that revolutionaries are social climbers with bombs has been proven here too many times already.Why give ones life to secure something for Cowan or Adams in the future. LUNACY.

Alfie, religion it seems is just pick and choose....

2011-04-25T18:47:20.088+01:00
Alfie,

religion it seems is just pick and choose. None of them seem to adhere to 'Thou Shalt not kill.' They always find some get out clause.

John, "I guess they would use something o...

2011-04-25T16:51:51.580+01:00
John,

"I guess they would use something of the justification that Alfie's friends are using in trying to kill Gaddafi or that they did when they murdered Saddam Hussein."

Great. Next you'll be calling me an imperialist or a West Brit. I oppose US/UK interventions in foreign countries, such as those in Afghanistan and Iraq, unless there is a serious, pressing humanitarian crisis in the country in question. I believe there was/is such a crisis in Libya and that Gaddafi's vicious counterinsurgency gave adequate justification for intervention. On the other hand, there was no pressing humanitarian crisis in Iraq eight years ago that required an invasion of that country. Despite the atrocities Saddam Hussein had committed in the past, he was not then attacking his own people in the manner that Gaddafi has been doing in Libya for the last couple of months. When a tyrant is killing civilians in large numbers and shelling towns and cities, the international community must act; however, to intervene in a sovereign state in the absence of a humanitarian crisis risks starting a deadly conflict. This, I think, is the crucial difference between Iraq in 2003 and Libya today.

How far the Libyan intervention should go is another matter. I am inclined to think that the best outcome for Libya would be actively assisting the rebels in removing Gaddafi and his regime.

PS. Though I do not have a major ethical objection to abortions carried out in the first 20 weeks of a pregnancy (because there is compelling evidence that the foetus is unconscious and cannot feel pain for at least the first 24 weeks), I would agree with you and Anthony about late-term abortions. However, I find it strange that you approve of the killings of Ronan Kerr and George Tiller, but you describe the execution of Saddam Hussein as murder. Surely if Saddam Hussein was murdered, then Ronan Kerr was too?

John 'It is allowed in more cases than that....

2011-04-25T16:12:29.963+01:00
John

'It is allowed in more cases than that.'

Which is what I find abhorrent about it. In 1986 I fell out with a friend who supported termination at any stage. She fell out with me because I quizzed her about it. I found her view so intolerable. She later took her won life and I never got the chance to speak to her again which was upsetting for its own reasons.

'I have never seen it as religious, which you seem to.'

I see a lot of it as religious crankiness. There is never in my view a religious reason for doing or not doing anything. I am a secularist who finds it disturbing. Those involved in targeting doctors seem to be religious cranks. I don't know of any that are not.

'Adams and McGuinness can be seen as potential legitimate targets'

Maybe by yourself but by very few others.

'I wouldn’t necessarily agree with carrying it out though, in the current climate.'

Deferring to opinion polls?

A ‘Doctor’ such as George Tiller is in no way innocent.

Tiller's death was nothing short of murder. Juries and committees had time and again found in his favour.

I guess we disagree on the death penalty.

For sure.

AM, ‘Partial birth abortion should be permissible...

2011-04-25T15:53:39.839+01:00
AM,

‘Partial birth abortion should be permissible where the life of the mother is at risk. Outside of that I find it abhorrent. It is however carried out in very limited cases.’

It is allowed in more cases than that;

“The Act was amended in 1990 by the HFE Act 1990. The effect was that the Infant Life Preservation Act was decoupled from the Abortion Act thus allowing abortion to full term for disability, life of the mother and health of the mother.“

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abortion_in_the_United_Kingdom

‘I briefly read up on it prior to replying and saw some opponents quoting the bible so immediately switched off. The secular arguments against are so much more persuasive.’

I agree, I have never seen it as religious, which you seem to.

‘I find it awful that anyone would want to see abortion doctors killed.’

Adams and McGuinness can be seen as potential legitimate targets, I wouldn’t necessarily agree with carrying it out though, in the current climate.

A ‘Doctor’ such as George Tiller is in no way innocent.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Tiller

‘Fair play to you for being upfront about it but I find it dangerous and disturbing.’

I find abortion, particularly when indistinguishable from infanticide, dangerous and disturbing. He should have been in gaol, not cutting up partially born babies, to finance his lavish lifestyle.

‘I wouldn't even advocate killing clerics who are paedophiles’

I would. I guess we disagree on the death penalty.

John It is in many countries. (Even the 1967 Act ...

2011-04-25T15:36:29.713+01:00
John

It is in many countries. (Even the 1967 Act as amended allows it in some circumstances/.

Partial birth abortion should be permissible where the life of the mother is at risk. Outside of that I find it abhorrent. It is however carried out in very limited cases.

The notion of doing it as birth control is very disturbing. There is so much else available for birth control.

I briefly read up on it prior to replying and saw some opponents quoting the bible so immediately switched off. The secular arguments against are so much more persuasive.

I find it awful that anyone would want to see abortion doctors killed. I didn't force you into the admission. It was something you volunteered. Fair play to you for being upfront about it but I find it dangerous and disturbing.

I wouldn't even advocate killing clerics who are paedophiles

AM, "'If a child can be killed up to, an...

2011-04-25T14:22:41.157+01:00
AM,

"'If a child can be killed up to, and including during their birth, what changes that it is wrong to kill them a few seconds later?'"

'Abortion is not permitted a few seconds short of the 9 month period.'

It is in many countries. (Even the 1967 Act as amended allows it in some circumstances).

Here is a typical definition:

"What is partial-birth abortion?
Partial-birth abortion is a specific medical procedure which induces a late-term (second or third trimester) abortion. It is also known as intact dilation and extraction, or D&X abortion. In a partial-birth abortion, the woman's cervix is dilated, and the fetus is vaginally delivered to the point that its head is exposed. The doctor then has the option of performing one of several procedures on the fetus with the intent of aborting it. The term partial-birth abortion has come into common usage since 2003, largely because "intact D&X" can also refer to a non-abortive method of removing a miscarried fetus from its mother, and therefore does not always imply abortion. The term is opposed by some pro-choice groups, however, due to its employment of the word "birth" to describe the procedure."

The few doctors targeted have tended to be those who carried out these late-term assassinations.

Should abortion doctors be legitimate targets?

Yes.

Comments on The Pensive Quill: Bombing Omagh

John & Alfie, Thought you might find this fro...

John McGirr, "But those who recognise him as...

Robert, 'The problem with your enemy's en...

John ‘So at agree that late-term abortions are no...

John McGirr, "Gadhafi is not an enemy of Ire...

John, ‘What about Syria, do you want your allies ...

Alfie ‘If the situation in Syria gets worse and ...

Alfie, we live in a world where good motives alon...

Anthony, But don't you think that Gaddafi had...

Alfie ‘What do you think of the intervention in L...

John, the same thing was said about Solidarity, ...

John, "But the anti-Libyan forces are sti...

Alfie, ‘… there are independent news organisation...

John, "Do you remember Saddam’s ‘weapons ...

Alfie, ‘If the situation in Syria gets worse and ...

John, "What about Syria, do you want your...

Alfie, ‘How far the Libyan intervention should go...

AM, ‘Which is what I find abhorrent about it.’ So...

Mackers just watched the Easter parade on tv last ...

Alfie, religion it seems is just pick and choose....

John, "I guess they would use something o...

John 'It is allowed in more cases than that....

AM, ‘Partial birth abortion should be permissible...

John It is in many countries. (Even the 1967 Act ...

AM, "'If a child can be killed up to, an...