Comments on The Pensive Quill: The Buggerhood

The Knitter, you are right on this. They should be...

2009-11-15T12:35:36.129Z

The Knitter, you are right on this. They should be forced back at every turn. Thanks for a comprehensive comment

It wasn't just CLERGY SEXUAL TERRORISM that we...

2009-11-15T10:39:11.576Z

It wasn't just CLERGY SEXUAL TERRORISM that went on in the Institutions; the physical brutality was a major part of life for the children, family denigration, child labour, malnutrition, ill-health. Indeed it can be said that if children were found lice-ridden, suffering from scabs and bruising and were obviously being subjected to violence they would have been consigned to the Institutions .... yet in one Industrial School [Newtownforbes] the Medical Inspector for Industrial Schools found the children in the infirmary to suffering from ALL of the above!

And of course the fightback against the Ryan Report has begun ... two weeks ago (25th October) on RTE's Miriam Meets two nuns, one of them the famous Sister Ollie, sorry Stan repeated her mantra that she didn't know anything about the abuse of children ... the other nun said the Ryan Report was 'unbelievable'.

The RC Church should be removed from any involvement with vulnerable communities ... children, the elderly, the sick, people with disabilities.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6vzIGpcCGGc

It is just unfortunate that an institution we hold...

2009-05-29T10:04:24.847+01:00

It is just unfortunate that an institution we hold in respect becomes tangled in its own web of deceit. As a Roman Catholic I don’t hold the faith responsible though would have to question my own faith if I did not view the actions as criminal and destructive to the sanctity of human life.
It is and we are a product of a society of religious taboo as these things do not happen and that is a general old attitude.
These are the actions of twisted evil people and their identities should be made available to society.
The Christian Brothers should do all they can to rid their society of those they know are a severe problem.
Like I said I don’t view this as a religious problem though in this case it is undeniable that those trusted used the religious institution for their own deprived actions without concern for those the terrorized or for their so called faith.

Kafkaite, fair enough points there. I didn't mean ...

2009-05-29T08:08:35.603+01:00

Kafkaite, fair enough points there. I didn't mean to suggest that the vow of celibacy was the only trigger for these physical and sexual attacks, as you rightly point out, it is a wider problem. I suspect though that the vow of celibacy added fuel to this particular situation, insofar as sexual repression will eventually out itself in some form. But I agree with you that ultimately like most physical or sexual abuse, it is opportunistic and based on power. So I'd have to retract the bit where I said 'turned many of them in sexual predators', as this is not true. It was written quickly.

I'm not suggesting that there is a correlation between the national cultural ethos of the Christian Brothers and this other despicable indefensible behaviour. But if like me you had a huge respect for their work in the area of nation-building and Gaelic culture, it's hard not to regret that an organisation like that could end up being involved in a national scandal like this.

I was certainly not condemning all fathers. I am one myself. That point was made to show how prevalent and widespread this problem is. While it is right that the members of the religious orders be condemned, we should always remember that this problem is bigger than the religious orders. I think we both agree on that. And again I would concede your point about the involvement of many fathers in this type of behaviour negates my erroneous point about celibacy per se being the trigger.

There is no 'roundabout defense' in anything I have said, as far as I am concerned, or at least if someone can find one I expel them from using it!

I watched Questions and Answers the other night and a man named Michael spoke on the programme. There will be no easy solutions to helping people who suffered like him through this. The only thing that I can think of is (a) bringing the perpetrators before a court where possible, (b) bringing the whole thing into the public domain as this report has done, and in some way this is helping victims feel that a great wrong is being recognised (c) force the religious orders to contribute more to any victim support mechanisms that come into being, and (d) provide pychological support where it is needed.

We also probably need to recognise that none of this will take the pain or suffering away completely.

I see no correlation between the theology and inde...

2009-05-29T06:49:01.477+01:00

I see no correlation between the theology and indeed the work done by Christian Brothers in preserving Gaelic ways and I am sure there are those within the brotherhood still help their communities.
To water it down to a few rotten brothers one would have to be blindly devout to the religious order.
The notion that the vow of celibacy has some corrupting power is absurd as you are avoiding the facts. These crimes were opportunistic and over a span of three generations extremely well organized. Obviously the good brothers held fast their faith to the order and for sixty years let the actions of the evil brothers continue?
Are we to believe institutionalized crime is separate from society? In this case yes, for the reason that it makes Catholicism evil.
When it comes to matters of our faith we turn tail and run after all we wouldn’t want to offend God by siding with victims of religious institutional crime.
It would be nice to sweep the past away fortunately the information age is something that is both good and evil.
“ I am positive all people who engaged in a bit a bother would love to say, I was celibate your honour and a member of a religious order can we just pay some restitution and forget it ever happened.”

If we are being honest, most people really cant care for other people's children in any meaningful way... the bond is not there. I hear parents talking about other people's weans all the time. To put young people into an environment with people who had taken a vow of celibacy, a vow that turned many of them into twisted sexual predators, and to hope that somehow the children were going to be well-cared for, was in itself a crazy decision. If evidence can be gathered, then they should be punished just like everyone else. I think we should put an end to this whole financial compensation thing... it's ugly.

Celibacy does not change people into “child predators” blaming a vow does not excuse the severity of the crimes, it is not just an embarrassment or blemish on a church but a reflection on society as a whole.

“But I'm not going to get into any witch-hunts where everyone gets condemned because of the actions of a minority, even if the minority is fairly numeric. If we are going to start condemning 'buggerhoods' then we might as well start with 'fatherhoods', because in comparison to the Christian Brothers, fathers are responsible for a lot more misery on this planet than anyone else when it comes to sexual aggression.”

I am curious what is the difference if it was one predator and one victim or in this case 15000 plus victims and an unknown number of predators along with those who had knowledge of the crimes.

Blaming Fatherhoods seems to defeat the celibacy theory.
“But I'm not going to get into any witch-hunts where everyone gets condemned because of the actions of a minority, even if the minority is fairly numeric.”
I think you just condemned the vast majority of Fathers and unlike your defense of the Brothers you did not mention there are many great Fathers and Mothers?

I mention mothers as not all of the victims are male and the issue of crimes against children being both genders we tend to overlook that fact.

Being a Roman Catholic I am not attacking the system of belief, if the church is protecting its own order and image then it is contradicting the very foundation of its belief system.

You appear to view culture, politics and religion as grounds for roundabout defense. With this social disease it is the individual(s) who prey upon the weak regardless of what their occupation is, it is a worldwide problem.
This case spans a period of sixty years and the fact it is a religious order one has to draw a conclusion that it was condoned and sweep aside.

If we refuse to support the victims then we are just as guilty as those who committed the crimes.
Religion is to save souls not destroy them?

I haven't had a chance to browse through the Ryan ...

2009-05-28T23:55:30.226+01:00

I haven't had a chance to browse through the Ryan report yet, and I'm not sure if I will get a chance. This is a subject area that just leaves me shaking my head in disbelief. I had no dealings with the Christian Brothers, apart from the fact that they produced the best Irish language grammar books and had a strong sense of Irish nationhood. In a sense they probably were the modern equivalent of the Franciscans of medieval Ireland, who played a strong role in defending the Gaelic way of life against the Anglo Saxon.

But this report, and earlier revelations have probably condemned the Christian Brothers to extinction anyway. If we are being honest, most people really cant care for other people's children in any meaningful way... the bond is not there. I hear parents talking about other people's weans all the time. To put young people into an environment with people who had taken a vow of celibacy, a vow that turned many of them into twisted sexual predators, and to hope that somehow the children were going to be well-cared for, was in itself a crazy decision. If evidence can be gathered, then they should be punished just like everyone else. I think we should put an end to this whole financial compensation thing... it's ugly.

But I'm not going to get into any witch-hunts where everyone gets condemned because of the actions of a minority, even if the minority is fairly numeric. If we are going to start condemning 'buggerhoods' then we might as well start with 'fatherhoods', because in comparison to the Christian Brothers, fathers are responsible for a lot more misery on this planet than anyone else when it comes to sexual aggression.

Tempting though it is to line everyone up and riddle them with the quill, my own approach is to (a) try to punish those responsible (b) force the orders to totally change their practices in line with everyone else (c) learn the lessons and move on. Some victims will not be able to move on, and they need as much support as possible. That is the horrible legacy of this period.

It is a frightening issue even with a so called in...

2009-05-27T13:04:52.818+01:00

It is a frightening issue even with a so called inquiry how many victims will not come forward out of shame and guilt.
The idea that the Church is still protecting the guilty along with the Government is more disturbing.
Perhaps they need an eleventh commandment: Though shalt not terrorize and torture children.
I think this qualifies as far more than the soft term "child abuse" more like child destruction?