Comments on The Pensive Quill: Viva Espana

Robert, which means the Orange Order do not supp...

2010-10-09T09:33:33.528+01:00

Robert,

which means the Orange Order do not support civil liberties at all. The point I was trying to get to and to where your comment has led us. It defends the idea that it is somehow just to trample over nationalists, whose civil liberties it vehemently opposed when it backed internment.

Should the loyalists who killed Eileen Doherty been interned without trial prior to killing her? Most definitely not. It is that mentality that republicans oppose Robert. And it would have meant we did not oppose internment but only the manner in which it was applied. Moreover, I have no memory of the Orange Order calling for loyalists like Eileen Doherty's killers to be interned. In fact if I am right such people were welcome into the ranks of the Order. Was Basher Bates of the Shankill Butchers a member?

But you know all this already Robert. And given your willingness to discuss and explore, it might be you who in the future makes a decision to move away from where you are now.

Anthony, "Civil liberties amongst other thin...

2010-10-08T21:31:14.273+01:00

Anthony,

"Civil liberties amongst other things amount to the freedom not to be imprisoned without trial."

The freedom not to be imprisoned without trial to my mind is superceded by the right to life and the responsibility of government to protect life. Had those who murdered Eileen Doherty on the Ormeau Rd been interned prior to her killing would you experience any reservations? That as I see it was the basis of support for internment. You may have never considered this but it may be an abuse, as you see it, that you and those dearest to you may depend on in the future.

Robert, My point is that we as a society place li...

2010-10-08T15:04:30.211+01:00

Robert,

My point is that we as a society place limits on civil liberties. If you think about it, the laws against nudity and sex in public are rather arbitrary; the people engaging in such acts are not directly infringing the rights of others, their crime merely being one of offending our societal notions of common decency. Still I support the laws against these behaviours because I think a society has a right to set its own cultural norms and that these norms can prevent conflict and anarchy, though I also believe that the laws which outline these norms should not be unduly restrictive and that any limits on personal freedom ought to be moderate and sensible. I view marches and parades from the same mindset: allow them to take place in proper public spaces like town centres, but prevent them from passing through residential areas. That seems sensible to me. I would say the same thing about republican, civil rights or gay pride marches as I would about the Orange Order ones.

Robert, regardless of what they allowed themselv...

2010-10-08T10:57:52.956+01:00

Robert,

regardless of what they allowed themselves to believe they supported the violation of the civil liberties of people against whom there was no evidence, who were brought before no court, and who had no recourse to a justice system that operated on the civil liberty principle of innocent until proven guilty. Civil liberties amongst other things amount to the freedom not to be imprisoned without trial. The Orange Order supported the systematic and systemic abuse of civil liberties.

Anthony, "Which means the Orange Order and U...

2010-10-08T00:06:00.124+01:00

Anthony,

"Which means the Orange Order and Unionism supported the wide spread abuse of civil liberties."

I think what they were supporting was the internment of those, who they were informed and believed, were responsible for terrorism. A parallel would be those who supported the invasion of Iraq on the basis of government information regarding WMD.

Alfie, "Would you tolerate a man masturbatin...

2010-10-07T23:44:00.796+01:00

Alfie,

"Would you tolerate a man masturbating in the street outside your house? Would you support the right to have sex in public toilets and parks?"

We appear to have gone off on a tangent. The toleration I refered to was in regard to groups we may not like but they or their behaviour do not constitute an illegality. I have'nt encountered anyone advocating either of the above as civil liberties.

Robert, Which means the Orange Order and Unionis...

2010-10-06T13:54:19.412+01:00

Robert,

Which means the Orange Order and Unionism supported the wide spread abuse of civil liberties.

Robert, I too support civil liberties, but I belie...

2010-10-02T21:37:21.599+01:00

Robert, I too support civil liberties, but I believe that there should be sensible limits on them. That is why I think that marches and parades should be obliged to process through the centre of towns and villages, and that they should not be allowed through residential areas, at least not without residents' consent. I have yet to encounter a convincing explanation why the historical route of an Orange march is such an essential part of it that the march cannot be rerouted to avoid residential areas.

"The urge may be to ban but the victory is to tolerate."

Would you tolerate a man masturbating in the street outside your house? Would you support the right to have sex in public toilets and parks?

Alfie, "I don't think banning a nude gay...

2010-10-02T18:17:28.778+01:00

Alfie,

"I don't think banning a nude gay pride parade through Robert's estate would be either!"

I think you have wrongly concluded that I would support the banning of a gay pride parade in my area on the basis of my dislike of homosexual practises. My opinions and beliefs do not provide a basis upon which the celebration of others sexual orientation or life choices should be banned, curtailed or removed to designated areas. There may be a historical or tradional reason why they want to process through my area. Their nudity may even have a cultural significance to them but is offensive to me. That Alfie, is the pain of living in a increasingly diverse and multi cultural society. The urge may be to ban but the victory is to tolerate.

Anthony, "Can find no evidence of Martin Smy...

2010-10-02T00:03:40.785+01:00

Anthony,

"Can find no evidence of Martin Smyth using the 12th to denounce internment."

Unionism in general would have supported internment as you will be aware - perhaps more the rationale than the horlicks that it became.

It would indeed, Marty!

2010-09-25T21:35:40.179+01:00

It would indeed, Marty!

Alfie a cara from a civil liberty point of view,I ...

2010-09-25T20:38:52.184+01:00

Alfie a cara from a civil liberty point of view,I believe that the orange should march as often ,for as long as they wish ,but do so in their own residential back yards,as a matter of fact I,d bet if they did they may end pissing of their own communities,a naked gay parade in early December would be worth watching dont ya think!

Maybe I'm alone on this, but I don't consi...

2010-09-25T19:43:15.687+01:00

Maybe I'm alone on this, but I don't consider preventing Orange marches through residential areas to be a significant denial of civil liberties. Similarly, I don't think banning a nude gay pride parade through Robert's estate would be either! There are many minor circumscriptions of personal freedom in our society that we put up with in order that things may run smoothly. Allowing marches and parades - especially contentious ones - to be held only in the centre of towns and cities and not routed through residential areas seems to me a sensible and modest circumscription.

I kinda think you are right. But Robert has told u...

2010-09-25T12:21:42.406+01:00

I kinda think you are right. But Robert has told us about the Orange Order merely standing up for civil liberties and that no liberty is lost if you defend the liberties of your opponent. If internment is not a denial of civil liberties ....
What was the position of the Orange Order in relation to the suppression of these civil liberties? I guess they sought them suppresed. Can find no evidence of Martin Smyth using the 12th to denounce internment

I kinda think that used to be orange marches for i...

2010-09-25T11:32:09.512+01:00

I kinda think that used to be orange marches for interment Anthony !

Robert, I take your point about supporting civil...

2010-09-25T10:10:50.714+01:00

Robert,

I take your point about supporting civil liberties. I am just having difficulty finding these Orange marches against internment!!

Anthony, "Why the Koran any more than the Bi...

2010-09-23T21:35:25.456+01:00

Anthony,

"Why the Koran any more than the Bible? Why burn any book?"

It would never occur to me to destroy a book on account of disagreeing with it's content. My point was more in support of civil liberties than the burning of sacred texts.

Fionnuala, "I was merely pointing out, that ...

2010-09-20T22:27:29.970+01:00

Fionnuala,

"I was merely pointing out, that long before you ever walked those roads they belonged to the native Irish."

The people wanting to walk those roads are not native?

"Viva Espana": Robert, 'If Muslims...

2010-09-18T19:56:53.392+01:00

"Viva Espana":

Robert,

'If Muslims wanted to burn it, especially the Koran.'

Why the Koran any more than the Bible? Why burn any book?

On the Cooley event, while it is easy to make the case from where I am now not faced with it, I will confidently say that if the residents of Cooley did not want us to parade through their estate because they held us responsible for the death of Tom Oliver and therefore felt genuinely aggrieved I for one would not go. I would attend in a private capacity and not part of a general assembly. Same reason I would not go to an event to commemorate Thomas Begley on the Shankill. I would find an alternative venue to remember him.

Nationalist resentment at Orange marches long preceded Gerry Adams.

Marty,

You are too funny to be domineering!

Robert, at last we have something in common, I hav...

2010-09-18T15:02:17.355+01:00

Robert, at last we have something in common, I have always had to work for anything I have as well.

Having said that, you have to admit that this place, 'here' the North, was very much a Protestant State for a Protestant people.

I mentioned the plantation in response to your argument, that once upon a time, sparsely populated districts were the preserve of orange marches and it was the demographic shift that caused the problems (paraphrasing)

I was merely pointing out, that long before you ever walked those roads they belonged to the native Irish.

2010-09-18T00:36:16.480+01:00

This comment has been removed by the author.

Fionnuala, "Practially everything you have &...

2010-09-18T00:36:13.602+01:00

Fionnuala,

"Practially everything you have 'here' was given to you curtesy of the plantation"

Practically evertything I have I worked for - nothing was handed to me on the basis of my religion or nationality.

Robert, you are planters and that is what makes su...

2010-09-17T11:15:01.107+01:00

Robert, you are planters and that is what makes such a nonsense of you traditional route argument.

Marty, "thats the sands of time." &quo...

2010-09-17T01:14:49.718+01:00

Marty,

"thats the sands of time."

"Don't let the sands of time get into your lunchbox"

Fionnuala, Thank you for enlightening me to what ...

2010-09-17T01:06:35.290+01:00

Fionnuala,

Thank you for enlightening me to what the crux of the matter is - us damn planters!