Comments on The Pensive Quill: Imagine This

Alfie, ‘But that begs the question: what should b...

2011-04-16T06:41:33.714+01:00

Alfie,

‘But that begs the question: what should be done about armed republicans? Should they be prosecuted?’

People like me never argue for that. It is a matter of conscientious objection given our history. But society will find a way of addressing the issue and it will of course involve prosecutions. And we cannot argue the case that society has no rights and that only those who subscribe to the physical force tradition have rights. That they who know better than every body else will determine what everybody else’s rights are. When the SDLP or Irish government call for republicans to be locked up I am and have long been, philosophical about it. I have lived with that all my days and expect it. When people who were part of it, ordered it for years, told all and sundry that the penalty for informing was death and then pretend they had little or no part in it – when they call for it I find it unpalatable. I was in jail cells from I was 16 years old. As much as I oppose what armed republicans do, that long experience leaves me seeing imprisoned republicans in a vastly different light from how others see them.

John ‘Sometimes it is good to be in a minority, h...

2011-03-31T08:21:32.884+01:00

John

‘Sometimes it is good to be in a minority, hated or otherwise.’

Agreed. Doesn’t make you right however.

‘Is there ever much ‘appetite for war’?

Rarely amongst the rational. Who is to decide that it should be waged?

Alfie says: ‘But don't people have a right to accept partition if they choose?’

You say: ‘No, unless they are traitors to their country.’

Why should they be made to suffer obligatory nationalism anymore than obligatory religion? People should be free to hold whatever ideas they wish. In the context referred to by Alfie they are only traitors to your idea not their country.

“In the name of God and of the dead generations from which she receives her old tradition of nationhood, Ireland, through us, summons her children to her flag and strikes for her freedom.”

In the name of the Flying Spaghetti Monster – that can never be a justification for war.

‘In the words of the martyr, Terence MacSwiney’

Mysticism to me. Does not persuade me in the slightest.

Alfie 'Personally, I think that a majority in...

2011-03-27T12:32:40.439+01:00

Alfie

'Personally, I think that a majority in the Republic would vote for a united Ireland, but most people here would rather tolerate partition than have a war to end it.'

And as 'the people' alone, not elites should have the right to wage war, there is no republican outcome to the problem of partition.

John

We will always pick the question we want asked so that it will give us the answer we want to hear.
Someone could legitimately propose that the GFA referendum question could have been ‘do you accept partition’ if the only means of getting rid of it are violent ones? I think the result would have been a resounding yes. People knew what they were voting for in the referendum.

‘It is an illegal statelet, and it should be destroyed?’

Any more so than an “illegitimate” child?

It is a legal statelet. We might not like it. It might be unjust and everything else but many legal things are.

‘the island as a whole should have the right to determine its future.’

And what if the island as a whole decides it does not want to be united?

‘the Real IRA or the Continuity IRA continue to act as our conscience and remind us that freedom is there if we want it.’

But it is a conscience that holds it is fair enough to risk another Omagh and fly in the face of the wishes of the vast bulk of Irish people. So they don’t operate as my conscience because my conscience tells me something different.

Using the term Northern Ireland is not something I would get worked up over.

Helen, Your history is certainly interesting. You...

2011-03-11T09:33:57.052Z

Helen,

Your history is certainly interesting. You have certainly experienced the same challenges and frustrations that many others have.

John, 'RSF has a pacifist president' Is ...

2011-02-26T22:49:54.244Z

John,

'RSF has a pacifist president'

Is this true?

All of this began in 1986 with the recognition of ...

2011-02-26T10:34:04.948Z

All of this began in 1986 with the recognition of Leinster House.Adams has been able to divide his opponents,much like the English have always done.RSF has a pacifist president,the other groups are just as disorganized,the Provisionals did what the English could not do since 1916.Adams & McGuiness have earned their thirty pieces of silver.It is a shame.

Anthony, "I agree armed republicans are n...

2011-02-26T01:05:55.804Z
Anthony,

"I agree armed republicans are not criminals. But that does not make them any more right in their actions than criminals, just different. People have a greater right to life than armed republicans have to kill them."

But that begs the question: what should be done about armed republicans? Should they be prosecuted?

Alfie I agree armed republicans are not criminal...

2011-02-25T13:41:28.895Z
Alfie

I agree armed republicans are not criminals. But that does not make them any more right in their actions than criminals, just different. People have a greater right to life than armed republicans have to kill them.

‘I am inclined to think that the 1916 rising was justified, but only if those who staged it had a legitimate expectation that it could succeed.’

Always a requirement for a just war theory.

As for the Rising I neither disown it nor claim it. In the end it really has no bearing on how I think. I guess I was about 16, in prison, reflecting on a summer’s evening, when the penny dropped that there were motivations at play other than the Rising.

Alfie, 'I apologise for implying that. It was ...

2011-02-14T00:18:11.857Z
Alfie,
'I apologise for implying that. It was arrogant and presumptuous of me. Sometimes I write before I think.'

It's okay Alfie. Been there, done that! It's a very sensitive issue we're debating here, so it's not surprising that some posts can get a bit 'heated' at times, especially when posters have so much passion about the subject matter.

Alfie, It is a simple work, that codifies the thi...

2011-02-13T22:44:13.045Z
Alfie,

It is a simple work, that codifies the thinking of the men of 1916.This work gives the justification, for resistance unencumbered by surveys and and mendacious 'agreements', which seek to pacify Ireland while it remains unfree.

Why re-invent the wheel when the principles have already been established, which give us all the justification we need?

A nation that rejects this is a dead nation. History would indicate that Ireland will not be allowed to committ suicide by rejecting its freedom. I suppose it is a logical pssibllity though, that Ireland will reject these principles and die. If that happens it will be a tragedy of the highest order.

I believe with all our Irish martyrs that this will never happen.

http://www.gutenberg.org/files/13132/13132-h/13132-h.htm

John, 'Did you get a moment to read Terenc...

2011-02-13T18:38:37.537Z
John,

'Did you get a moment to read Terence MacSwiney's "Principles of Freedom"?'

Unfortunately, I don't have the time to read the whole thing at the moment; however, I did read the passage that you quoted and I'm not really convinced. MacSwiney seems to value the idea of an Irish nation more than the will of the people in Ireland. He also talks about inalienable rights, but he doesn't seem to respect the right of the Irish people to reject republicanism. If people don't have a choice, how is that genuine republicanism? To my mind, it is the exact opposite.

Alfie, Did you get a moment to read Terence MacSw...

2011-02-13T16:20:13.330Z
Alfie,

Did you get a moment to read Terence MacSwiney's "Principles of Freedom"?

I would be interested to read what you ar anyone else think of them.

If you didn't see it, this is the link:

http://www.gutenberg.org/files/13132/13132-h/13132-h.htm

PS Am I the only one having trouble getting into this the PQ Site and posting messages?

Helen, "I got the feeling in some of your...

2011-02-12T23:48:46.294Z
Helen,

"I got the feeling in some of your posts, Alfie, you think I'm just another 'yank' who doesn't know their arse from their elbow and I just want to 'egg on armed struggle.’"

I apologise for implying that. It was arrogant and presumptuous of me. Sometimes I write before I think.

Alfie, 'I consider myself a republican; I am a...

2011-02-12T14:50:55.637Z
Alfie,
'I consider myself a republican; I am against partition; I oppose the state of Northern Ireland and the PSNI. However, I also believe that, unless the circumstances are exceptional, republicans should not go to war without some sort of mandate. Given my family connections to the Old IRA and the Provos, I am uneasy about opposing armed republicanism, but without mass support and any chance of success, I don't see any other option'.

Thanks for your honesty here Alfie. I know I may sound like a broken record with regard to the McGeough case, but his attempt to work through the political process failed him. He was arrested for running as an Independent candidate on an anti-psni platform and almost four years later he’s still waiting for the verdict of his diplock court trial that could find him in prison for 20 years on alleged 38 year old troubles related charges? So to me it's a Catch 22. You're damned if you do and your damned if you don't. That tells me the Brits have it well tied up in their favor, ever since the GFA and the amendment to articles 2 and 3.

There appears to be very little support for armed struggle anymore, and yet there doesn't appear to be much support for a republican candidate who challenges PSF? So what is the answer?

I got the feeling in some of your posts, Alfie, you think I'm just another 'yank' who doesn't know their arse from their elbow and I just want to 'egg on armed struggle.’ Not so. I've been involved a long time with civil and human rights issues around the world, and I lived illegally for 3 years in Derry in the early 80's when Derry was a partially bombed out city. I wanted to find out first hand what the 'troubles' were really about, as I couldn't rely on the U.S. media to give an unbiased account of the situation over there.

After 3 years, I went back to the USA more committed to getting the truth out about the troubles, British injustice and the security forces collusion with loyalist paramilitary groups. After what I saw and experienced, while living in the north those 3 years, I made a promise to myself that I would continue to campaign for “Brits Out” and the reunification of Ireland, until I was no longer able to do so. If I feel that way, can you imagine how republicans living under British and Unionist repression their entire lives feel?

Alfie to quote Tombstone Hartley in war there can ...

2011-02-12T08:45:24.911Z
Alfie to quote Tombstone Hartley in war there can only be one principal and that is to win,Churchill was prepared to use every and any means to destroy Hitler and that included the use of posion gas which was banned by the Geneva convention, war mo cara is not a gentlemans game,and as we all know the rulebook gets torn up,the british goverment could have stoped the war in the north east of Ireland many many years earlier if they wanted ,their agents were in control of all the warring factions including pira,they through Tony bLIAR admitted that they pursued a dirty war here and when those who make the rules,break the rules ,then there is no rules, or as we used to sing OH Britinia britinia waves the rules!Helen before our Mickeyboy rares up at you mo cara dont refer to prefidious Albion or the land of the dummy tits as "the mainland" Ireland is a nation on her own, mind you we are well stuffed with dummy tits, I have a big clock on the wall here showing the back of an armed brit heading home the legends say SLÁN ABHAILE ....TIME TO GO..

Helen, Think the author of that article is well ...

2011-02-12T08:25:21.715Z
Helen,

Think the author of that article is well wide of the mark (even though it's well over ten years old), I can't see the two community levels coming even anywhere near level for the forseeable future it just doesn't take in the mass emigration of young nationalists, which of course will have a knock on effect on future birth rates and to be blunt the fenians aren't having as many weeans as they once did.
I think that this is what this whole 'peace process' amounts to, keeping a lid on it until the numbers in the sectarian headcount are right. What happens if and when they ever do remains to be seen. At the minute I'd say the unionists would feel the union is well and truly safe

Marty, "when the british army and their a...

2011-02-12T02:52:52.819Z
Marty,

"when the british army and their agents deliberately kill civilians,which was part and parcel of Kitsons plan, then its well within the rights of the PIRA/INLA to target the people who would be in a position to infulence their goverment"

It is true that loyalists and British soldiers killed civilians first, but that doesn't make it right; that doesn't give republicans carte blanche. We cannot target noncombatants lest we are prepared for noncombatants in our own community to be targets also. Similarly, the IRA cannot torture suspected informers unless it is prepared to countenance the torture of its own volunteers by British forces. I have no experience of war, but I'd like to think that certain basic principles apply.

marty, John McGirr, Gerry thanks everyone for thei...

2011-02-12T01:23:58.689Z
marty, John McGirr,
Gerry thanks everyone for their support. As for Gerry buying, marty, I'm not sure that will happen LOL! However, I'll be happy to send over a few American dollars to buy you all a pint if he goes free!

Simon, "Also the GFA recognises the right...

2011-02-12T01:20:09.995Z
Simon,

"Also the GFA recognises the right to peacefully campaign and work for re-unification. So even if most people want to maintain partition and all that goes with it, anybody who wants to can work to persuade them otherwise."

I think you might have misunderstood my position. I consider myself a republican; I am against partition; I oppose the state of Northern Ireland and the PSNI. However, I also believe that, unless the circumstances are exceptional, republicans should not go to war without some sort of mandate. Given my family connections to the Old IRA and the Provos, I am uneasy about opposing armed republicanism, but without mass support and any chance of success, I don't see any other option.

marty, 'when the british army and their agents...

2011-02-12T01:05:01.148Z
marty,
'when the british army and their agents deliberately kill civilians,which was part and parcel of Kitsons plan, then its well within the rights of the PIRA/INLA to target the people who would be in a position to infulence their goverment and that my friend is always the powerfull and the wealthy'

If my memory serves me correctly marty, it wasn't until the Ra took the war to the 'mainland' that the Brits sat up and took notice and decided it was time to 'talk to political SF again'. My take on that was as long British citizens outside of the north of Ireland were not bothered by the troubles who really cared? Once it disrupted their lives on the mainland...it was another story wasn't it?

MartyDownUnder: Thank you so much for sharing that...

2011-02-12T00:58:54.553Z
MartyDownUnder:
Thank you so much for sharing that article in The Independent with me. Very informative. However, according to the author he states that 'expert opinion suggests that catholics will not overtake the Protestants for three decades or more?" Since the article was written in 1994 does that means there wouldn't be another all 32 county vote for a re-united Ireland until 2024? Not cool!

Alfie you need to turn your statement around mo ca...

2011-02-11T22:35:49.037Z
Alfie you need to turn your statement around mo cara when the british army and their agents deliberately kill civilians,which was part and parcel of Kitsons plan, then its well within the rights of the PIRA/INLA to target the people who would be in a position to infulence their goverment and that my friend is always the powerfull and the wealthy!

marty, Much as I don't want to, I must be rea...

2011-02-11T22:14:08.038Z
marty,

Much as I don't want to, I must be realistic. The judge at that trial will not find Gerry 'not-guilty.'

'Guilty' was always a foregone conclusion with that English masonic judge.

Please God that I am wrong, but I don't think so.

Alfie- The main reason Garrett Fitzgerald signed t...

2011-02-11T20:49:12.428Z
Alfie- The main reason Garrett Fitzgerald signed the Anglo-Irish Agreement was because his government was afraid Sinn Fein would outstrip the SDLP in terms of votes. It was looking that way. That's why I have to laugh when people say the SDLP brought Sinn Fein in from the cold. The ceasefires helped Sinn Fein internationally but the Anglo-Irish Agreement did what Fitzgerald planned- bolstered the SDLP.

Alfie- to tell you the truth I think the St. Andre...

2011-02-11T20:43:55.958Z
Alfie- to tell you the truth I think the St. Andrew's Agreement changed too much of the GFA. The triple lock veto allows either the DUP or Sinn Fein or whoever holds 50% plus one of the unionist/nationalist vote to veto any decision. Since Sinn Fein want change they are less likely to veto any progressive legislation than the DUP who want to maintain the status quo.

However I support devolution as a concept as it allows a shift in sovereignty albeit small from Westminster to this part of Ireland. Local people making local decisions, accountable to the rest of the people.

I am unsure if devolution will entrench partition or will allow further change. On the one hand all Ireland cooperation is less in the news and there seems to be less talk of a united Ireland from Sinn Fein. I don't mean they ignore the issue I just wish they were more pro-active.

I don't think there is a barrier to supporting the GFA as it was and wanting something else to happen if you had the choice. I think most people would change some aspect of the agreement if they had the chance. I am aware it was a compromise but changes to it happen all the time, without referendums. As for countries who support it I am unsure who does, who doesn't and who doesn't care.

Also the GFA recognises the right to peacefully campaign and work for re-unification. So even if most people want to maintain partition and all that goes with it, anybody who wants to can work to persuade them otherwise.

Comments on The Pensive Quill: Imagine This

Alfie, ‘But that begs the question: what should b...

John ‘Sometimes it is good to be in a minority, h...

Alfie 'Personally, I think that a majority in...

Helen, Your history is certainly interesting. You...

John, 'RSF has a pacifist president' Is ...

All of this began in 1986 with the recognition of ...

Anthony, "I agree armed republicans are n...

Alfie I agree armed republicans are not criminal...

Alfie, 'I apologise for implying that. It was ...

Alfie, It is a simple work, that codifies the thi...

John, 'Did you get a moment to read Terenc...

Alfie, Did you get a moment to read Terence MacSw...

Helen, "I got the feeling in some of your...

Alfie, 'I consider myself a republican; I am a...

Alfie to quote Tombstone Hartley in war there can ...

Helen, Think the author of that article is well ...

Marty, "when the british army and their a...

marty, John McGirr, Gerry thanks everyone for thei...

Simon, "Also the GFA recognises the right...

marty, 'when the british army and their agents...

MartyDownUnder: Thank you so much for sharing that...

Alfie you need to turn your statement around mo ca...

marty, Much as I don't want to, I must be rea...

Alfie- The main reason Garrett Fitzgerald signed t...

Alfie- to tell you the truth I think the St. Andre...