Comments on The Pensive Quill: This Is Not Rome

Alfie, that is the problem. The 96th Internation...

2011-08-01T18:43:29.778+01:00

Alfie,

that is the problem. The 96th International is hardly going to address it! So we are left with it.

Anthony, "I thought old lefties like you did...

2011-08-01T12:35:45.357+01:00

Anthony,

"I thought old lefties like you did not trust the UN!!"

I suppose I shouldn't, but what else is there? NATO?!?

Alfie, ‘I think self-proclaimed states should be ...

2011-08-01T07:49:05.946+01:00

Alfie,

‘I think self-proclaimed states should be recognised by the UN … ‘

I thought old lefties like you did not trust the UN!!

Anthony, "But should every self proclaimed n...

2011-07-29T12:28:09.811+01:00

Anthony,

"But should every self proclaimed nation have a state?"

No. I think self-proclaimed states should be recognised by the UN on a case-by-case basis using criteria such as constitutional status, population size, national homogeneity and viability. Twenty Elvis impersonators living in someone's back yard who wanted to establish Elvisland there should obviously not be recognised!

Alfie, ‘But should every minority culture be acco...

2011-07-29T09:50:30.575+01:00

Alfie,

‘But should every minority culture be accommodated with its own statelet?’

No. But should every self proclaimed nation have a state?

I think a state is an indispensable mechanism of political organisation. I don’t think a nation is. It so happens that there is a utilitarian overlapping of nations and states. The history of nationalism has been both radical and reactionary. Borders are not always natural. Political power has often defined them (our own for example). Do people have the right to dissent from the nation? Should there be obligatory nationalism? Should democracy be trumped by nationalism? These are the sort of questions that have drifted through my mind over the years as I have pondered the matter. At some point nation states are likely to be a thing of the past as human society evolves other structures to organise themselves and people self-identify in different ways. Whether this is a good or bad thing it seems to me it will happen. I always tend to ask what is the most humane and rights driven way for society to organise itself rather than arbitrarily impose or depose the nation.

‘The Irish people may have accepted the existence of Northern Ireland, but that doesn't change the fact that it was illegitimately established.’

But the fact that it was such established does not, as you have previously argued, address the facts on the ground of where we are now. ‘Writing in 1954 on the very question of the divided country John V. Kelleher suggested that a political problem is rarely solved by those who ‘tend to see it as it first existed and not as time and society continually refashion it … the history of the problem is nearly irrelevant to its solution.…’

While I am quoting from my own 2008 article here, it struck me before that it in some ways resembled the logic you have outlined.

Anthony, "I think there was much more to uni...

2011-07-26T12:26:22.828+01:00

Anthony,

"I think there was much more to unionists opposition than the Catholic Church. Unionists had every good reason not to want to go into a united Ireland where the Church had a say but even without that malign Church power Unionists had a cultural identity that can not be reduced to religion."

But should every minority culture be accommodated with its own statelet? Unionists accounted for about a quarter of the population on this island at the beginning of the 20th century. They did not desire an independent state of their own, merely a British-controlled statelet where they could be in the majority. Why should they be accommodated, especially since Ireland had been recognised and governed as a distinct country for centuries and since there was no credible border in this country between between nationalists and unionists? It must also be said that a British state already existed across the water where people who considered themselves British could live if they did not want to be in a minority in another country. As Larry pointed out, the Irish and most people of other nationalities are happy to live and work as members of a minority community in countries all over the world such as the USA, Australia and even Britain itself. They do not demand their own self-governing enclaves that are attached to their countries of origin. I wonder how the British government would react if, in 50 years time, the Pakistani community in the UK wanted to create Pakistani-controlled statelets in the areas where Pakistanis are in the majority. I imagine the British would put forward the same sort of arguments against such a scenario as Irish nationalists have put forward against Northern Ireland.

The right of self-determination should not be used by large, powerful states to expand their borders at the expense of smaller, weaker ones. The Irish people may have accepted the existence of Northern Ireland, but that doesn't change the fact that it was illegitimately established.

Ranger1640 ‘ if you speak to many Protestants/Un...

2011-07-26T12:22:37.278+01:00

Ranger1640

‘ if you speak to many Protestants/Unionists/Loyalists. You will find that they are more socialist than capitalist, and are therefore not against a socialist republic per se.’

A tiny minority of them in my view. I don’t think there are too many socialists these days if by socialist we mean something approximating what Scargill stood for.

‘it has always been the malevolent influence of the roman catholic church in the Irish state, that has kept the majority of Protestants/Unionists/Loyalists from supporting a United Ireland.’

While there is no doubt about a malevolent Church I think it was only one strand in the unionist makeup. Many northern nationalists found aspects of Protestantism deeply dangerous. Sure, I don’t doubt that the Vatican issued many evil decrees but was it any more evil than Paisleyism?

‘If Enda gets to grip with the roman catholic church, and a total separation of church and state. You will find that the 90 odd years of republican violence against the north was a complete and utter waste of time.’

We hardly need that to draw the same conclusion. Just look at Stormont for evidence to fill your eyes with

‘How ironic the answer to a United Ireland was there all the time within the grasp of the Irish state itself, remove the power and influence of the roman catholic church and you had no impediment to Irish Unity.’

I find this a big oversimplification.

‘How an individual interacts with their god is their personal choice, not the prescriptive malevolent roman catholic way.’

Very true.

'I look at them worshipping statures....' ...

2011-07-26T11:58:15.561+01:00

'I look at them worshipping statures....'

The dumbest comment on the Quill yet!

Ranger1640/36th Ulster ‘I did not say it would b...

2011-07-26T10:52:58.579+01:00

Ranger1640/36th Ulster

‘I did not say it would be easy but given the right legislation and actions on that legislation in the south, and you might fined a softening of positions. ‘

Begs the question of how British the Unionists actually feel or believe themselves to be.

‘Who would want to go there anyway? It will be full of paedophile priests!!!’

You will find few here who disagree with that.

‘However it was better for us to say where we where, than in the puppet state of Rome.’

I think there was much more to unionists opposition than the Catholic Church. Unionists had every good reason not to want to go into a united Ireland where the Church had a say but even without that malign Church power Unionists had a cultural identity that can not be reduced to religion.

‘That said if we thought we would get a secular state with a guarantee, you just might well find that there are more
Protestants/Unionists/Loyalists than you think easy to convince.’

But they were happy enough to live in a state that for long challenged secularism to the point that it would close parks and chain up swings on a Sunday. There is nothing particularly secular about unionism.

‘The pious Adams is an issue

But he has done more to consolidate partition than any previous Northern nationalist leader.

‘Just shows you persuasion is better than coercion.’

It doesn’t really. While it is true as a general rule this is not the case to prove it on.

@ ranger1640 What Larry said answers part of your ...

2011-07-26T09:39:24.587+01:00

@ ranger1640 What Larry said answers part of your question for me as follows: 'There-in is the fundamental problem. Unionists in the North refuse to see themselves as an Irish minority or Irish AT ALL.' (larry)
An Aboriginal elder many years ago told me something in conversation that i have never forgotten... He said:
"They practised on your people then they came for us"
And just as deep was a very old Aboriginal woman who walked up to me at a Aboriginal special get together i was invited to. She took me aside and told me she wanted me to know something. She told of a story passed down through her tribe/clan in generations around the campfire. Oral lessons/history passed on to the young ones. As a girl she learnt of Irish men who were beaten and denigrated until (i quote here here exact description) "beaten and mocked until they were half insane"
This Aboriginal elder then hugged me and said: "What i want you to know sister, is our people understood their pain yes we did" It was deep, deep profound stuff... And i am not ashamed to say i cried me guts out on the way home for her people & ours.
One can only work with what is left after extensive genocidal practices on any Indigenous culture...
To conclude - let the Aboriginal people of Australia have their cultural rights, land rights and all rights. God knows so much was decimated and so much suffering/sorrow be on them to this very day... Much of Australia stands with them for their rights.
Let the Irish have their rights on their land. Those who resist these innate rights perpetuate fragmentation ='s the madness and wounds continue. Like i said we can only build up on what is left of what was taken. NB Clean up the Vatican next stop Sort the OO headcase shop! That is it.

Ranger1640, you don’t need to be a Protestant/u...

2011-07-26T09:35:35.302+01:00

Ranger1640,

you don’t need to be a Protestant/unionist/loyalist to fail to comprehend the obedience on the nationalist/republican side to the superstitions of the Catholic Church. I look at them worshipping statures, making holy water and thinking god is a wafer and think to myself are people so gullible. All those idiots flocking to a tree stump must embarrass all but the demented Catholics. I know Catholics who wince at the thought of it. Having said that, Protestantism is no more persuasive. All that evangelical stuff must be as embarrassing to many Protestants as miraculous tree stumps are to many Catholics.

Larry,

‘wouldn't it be great if the pope and his cardinals were arrested on their travels like Pinochet?’

And who demanded Pinochet’s release? Ratzinger is said to have been behind the Vatican diplomacy to have him freed when he was arrested in Britain for killing Spanish civilians.

‘Never rated Kenny and thought he was going to bite the dust in the FG leadership battle.’

I used to think he had no chance of ever making Taoiseach. But things have turned around for him. Once he won the internal battle circumstances were fortuitous for him. While I doubt if us ‘disillusioned Fenians’ would ever vote FG, we can’t blind ourselves to what happens in front of our eyes. And on putting it up to the Vatican he was sound.

Ranger 1640 'I take it by that, that you wou...

2011-07-25T12:23:46.518+01:00

Ranger 1640

'I take it by that, that you would be in favour of retuning all planter lands back to the Irish'.

There-in is the fundamental problem. Unionists in the North refuse to see themselves as an Irish minority or Irish AT ALL.

More akin to Nazis, zionists and Boers. Irish in the UK, America and Australia obey the laws of that country, work and pay tax in them. If you are so determined to be anything but Irish, bugger-off.

If Henry 8th had remained Catholic Ireland would still have been colonised and your mankie mob would have found another excuse for theft and an easy time.

By the way...i saw on tv recently the yanks dropped a 2000lb lazer guided smart bomb on US Special forces and the northern alliance in Afghanistan, by mistake. When asked for a comment, a US military spokesman said 'bombs go wrong'

Imagin the RIRA sayin that over Omagh.... just a thought on other facets of hypocrasy.

ranger1640, "Saint Mary, In your post you sa...

2011-07-24T19:08:43.283+01:00

ranger1640,

"Saint Mary, In your post you said "We don't forget our history/suffering/losses". I take it by that, that you would be in favour of retuning all planter lands back to the Irish."

Maybe she was simply referring to the fact that Britain occupied Ireland for centuries without the consent of the indigenous people whom it oppressed for much of the occupation. Just a thought...

Larry, ‘Adams looked like a cowed wee mongrel do...

2011-07-24T17:33:53.489+01:00

Larry,

‘Adams looked like a cowed wee mongrel dog afraid to look up during the Kenny speech about the Vatican, and no bloody wonder!!’

I sensed he was very uncomfortable. He more resembles a bishop than anyone else in the Dail. Ironic on a day that saw Kenny pushing a republican sentiment.

‘Voting for Enda Kenny might be no bad thing!’

Certainly before I would ever vote for the former bishop of West Belfast. But there is so much else in the mix that it would be impossible to cast a vote the way of FG. But if he was never right on anything else he certainly got this right.

SMH,

Kenny was right but it was long overdue. What is encouraging is the amount of Irish clergy backing him. I thought they would have opted for the ostrich strategy which as we can see from this discussion has happened. Demented Catholics will evade and avoid whereas the thinking Catholics try to tackle the issues raised by Enda Kenny. But diversionary tactics have lost their value because Irish society is doing what you said – nailing the evil bastards down. Squeezing the pus means we will have to put up with a putrid clerical smell for a while but it will be worth it if it protects children from priests.

Saint Mary, In your post you said "We don'...

2011-07-24T15:33:57.944+01:00

Saint Mary, In your post you said "We don't forget our history/suffering/losses". I take it by that, that you would be in favour of retuning all planter lands back to the Irish.

Would you be in favour to of America being handed back to the native Americans.

Interestingly I see by your profile you live in Australia. Why don't you start and make a stand and give the bit of Australia you inhabit back to the native Australians? After all you by your presence there off the back of English oppression of the native Australians. You are therefore by default oppressing their self determination and their right to their native land. Or does it only apply to Ireland????

Alfie, it is more figurative than literal but cap...

2011-07-24T13:31:21.451+01:00

Alfie,

it is more figurative than literal but captures the attitude of the Church to women. Aquinas, I have read defined them as defective men deficient in body and soul. But he believed in celestial fairies and called them angels.

John, "Can anyone substantiate this? When di...

2011-07-24T13:10:09.588+01:00

John,

"Can anyone substantiate this? When did women not have souls?"

I was actually wondering about that myself. Then again, considering that demons, apparations, miracles, etc. are all part of the Catholic faith, the idea of women not having souls might just be daft enough to have been part of it too. I have much more respect for my father's brand of theism. He believes in God, but he doesn't buy into any hocus-pocus.

Marty, I think it would be hard to find fault wit...

2011-07-24T12:45:08.745+01:00

Marty,

I think it would be hard to find fault with that interpretation of the confessional. I think when we reach the understanding that there is nothing essentially good about clergy then we are able to see the uses that things are put to. They would use the confessional for the same reasons that the SB would use torture.

Anthony would you not agree that to the catholic c...

2011-07-24T11:19:40.785+01:00

Anthony would you not agree that to the catholic church the confession box was a superb way of gathering information on those you wish to control and to paedo,s it its a perfect way to find vunerable kids and their families,bet sb were jealous,

Tiarna, Kenny was surprisingly strong on it alrig...

2011-07-24T08:06:58.047+01:00

Tiarna,

Kenny was surprisingly strong on it alright. The conservative Catholics have been stung. The thinking amongst them are seeking to make intellectual arguments while the demented are blaming gays.

‘Some priests are already vowing to defend an abuser of children in the event that they (a colleague) confess to child abuse in the confessional box and the priest who hears the confession will not disclose that child abuse to an Garda.’

They can do the time then. Let’s see how principled they are in the cell. Very few will ever do time in defence of it. Who would march in support of them? They are not after all providing a public service, merely performing a private members’ ritual.

‘For years Confessions have likely been an enabler for repeat offenders.’

Without doubt.

@ Ranger1640 RE 'As a Protestant/Unionist/Loya...

2011-07-24T00:56:26.267+01:00

@ Ranger1640 RE 'As a Protestant/Unionist/Loyalist, I can never comprehend the obedience of the nationalist/republican to the superstitions and control of the roman catholic church.'

As an Ex Catholic Irish woman I will never comprehend the futile, stuck in a rut, loyalist mentality which is by default a confused, seperatist entity. NB A grand day in Ireland will also be the end of your Hate Marches. The shit flows both ways. Proddie orgs under the banner of Christian beliefs also have their ship of fools/criminals/atrocities.
I understand Catholic nationalists and would stand with them not your lot if the need arose. We don't forget our history/suffering/losses ='s Native Irish we are NOT brainwashed, regurgitated 21st century planters grappling with an identity crisis.

'A Fine Gael Taoiseach is not the type of pers...

2011-07-24T00:03:43.285+01:00

'A Fine Gael Taoiseach is not the type of person who expects to be lauded by republicans. Enda Kenny has managed that.'

Has a Republican lauded Enda Kenny? Who? Where?

'A lowly woman, a second class citizen, who no...

2011-07-23T23:04:13.669+01:00

'A lowly woman, a second class citizen, who not so long ago didn’t even have a soul....'

Can anyone substantiate this? When did women not have souls?

Opportunity knocks and Gift horse and mouth, comes...

2011-07-23T20:27:53.750+01:00

Opportunity knocks and Gift horse and mouth, comes to mind here.

Seems the years of Sinn Fein indoctrination are making some on here sceptical.

I did not say it would be easy but given the right legislation and actions on that legislation in the south, and you might fined a softening of positions. I know there are difficulties, not lest with the ownership of the infrastructure of schools and hospitals. But that can be the price the roman catholic church pays to the Irish state for their so far unpunished crimes. And what I know of the church of Rome influence over the young and money are more important than getting into a their so called heaven.
Who would want to go there anyway? It will be full of paedophile priests!!!

We know that the UK government especially a Labour government would have us down the road tomorrow. However it was better for us to say where we where, than in the puppet state of Rome.

That said if we thought we would get a secular state with a guarantee, you just might will find that there are more Protestants/Unionists/Loyalists than you think easy to convince.

If I and others are saying this then the ball is well and truly in Enda's court.

I'm not saying it will be easy or tomorrow, but with the right effort and legislation you know the United Ireland project might just get the kick start and momentum you did not expect.

If I maybe so bold as to point out a few home truths. The pious Adams is an issue, but he will not be the omnipotent one forever. The other issue is the state of the Irish economy. whether it is robust enough to take the North on is questionable, but this is not an overnight project and by the time the Irish economy is in a better place you just never know.

Just shows you persuasion is better than coercion.

As my Dublin friend aid, "Coming from such a ...

2011-07-23T18:50:37.049+01:00

As my Dublin friend aid, "Coming from such a hideous crawling altar-licking catholic all his hyprocritical life; they must be really down is he is kicking them"
So, I wouldn't rush to make a hero out of him.