Comments on The Pensive Quill: Pointless

You presume im SF or somehow support them. Wrong.

2013-04-06T21:54:07.058+01:00

You presume im SF or somehow support them. Wrong.

You're all touts

2013-04-06T21:52:16.892+01:00

You're all touts

Damn straight!

2013-04-06T20:36:24.703+01:00

Damn straight!

The next time the shinners mention talking to what...

2013-04-06T20:16:36.579+01:00

The next time the shinners mention talking to what they refer to as 'dissidents' an apt response would be....

'Are they seeking to negotiate a return to Republicanism?...If so they'd need to ditch their leadership first.'

Larry, sup with a very long spoon. If they lie it...

2013-04-06T13:05:55.272+01:00

Larry,

sup with a very long spoon. If they lie it will for an advantage. If they don't lie it will be for an advantage. Credibility? Nah.

Larry, the last thing the prisoners need is to st...

2013-04-06T12:57:52.461+01:00

Larry,

the last thing the prisoners need is to start looking like the Irrelevant Left which for so long suffocated any initiative due to an inflexible insistence on its own brand of socialism being dominant. And in the midst of those endless sectarian squabbles those involved ccouldn't see it while those outside it dismissed it as they would two bald men fighting over a comb.

Doubtless, there are sensitivites involved and if it means handling it delicately so be it, but I think prisoners can benefit from a wider discussion of it as it should give them an insight into into how matters are perceived.

Nuala,

all can have their say in the matter so it is not as if those seeking the issue of contention aired want to suppress a different view of it. However it is handled there can be no reverting to Shinner form and imposing the 'hush' rule on people. Activism always benefits from people knowing more rather than less.

If the prisoners need to squabble incomprehensibly...

2013-04-06T12:38:48.151+01:00

If the prisoners need to squabble incomprehensibly to most of us on the outside, I do feel for their families. Wives and kids getting on with life alone whilst trudging up and down to a jail. Most will probably be on the dole too no doubt making it even worse.

Is there no way to just let the prisoners 'bitch' away there and do something constructive for their families?

Michaelhenry 'RNU need some good PR that talk...

2013-04-06T11:31:19.709+01:00

Michaelhenry

'RNU need some good PR that talking'

SF is being wrapped in cotton wool by the media here. For everyone else it's like the North Korea media blackout.

Mackers

Getting SF to take a lie detector test is worthless. Even if they passed it they've been fibbing through their teeth so long it's way to late for them to become credible.

Mackers, Exactly Mackers. Having your say rightly ...

2013-04-06T10:58:17.756+01:00

Mackers,
Exactly Mackers. Having your say rightly or wrongly can make you decidedly unpopular but I can live with that. I can live with it a damn sight more than I could with shutting up just to keep in favour.

Nuala, more likely that some will try to depict y...

2013-04-06T09:50:02.795+01:00

Nuala,

more likely that some will try to depict you as all wrong. But one of the great satisfactions in life is having your say. If we think something is being handled wrongly we can comment on it. It seems to me that there are some things about the prison being handled wrongly. I know I am not alone in thinking this. I believe the sentiment is pretty widespread. It needs addressed. If we are about protecting prisoners' rights as we say then we have to protect the prisoner from Clonard. It's as simple as that. I don't see how it can be otherwise.

Mackers, Sometimes you feel that saying what you b...

2013-04-06T09:33:07.793+01:00

Mackers,
Sometimes you feel that saying what you believe to be right can sometimes make you appear all wrong.
I think the powers that be wil playl this this out their own way irrespective of what people like us think.

Michaelhenry, they could as easily talk to a PR...

2013-04-06T09:10:17.728+01:00

Michaelhenry,

they could as easily talk to a PR agency who would not try to shaft them. Although, I think you are right in that SF have taken the first round because of inadequate PR by RNU in its response to Kelly.

Moreover, given that RNU is a republican group with much enmity from the past and present existing between it and SF I doubt if the common ground is there. RNU should be offering talks with SF as part of an exercise in persuading former comrades not to implement Tory cuts or welfare reform. It should not in my view be responding to an agenda shaped by SF and only there to give SF an advantage. SF now has the initiative not RNU.

Armed activity by any republican group is strategically futile and should stop immediately. Is it going to stop because SF talk to RNU? Not a chance. If RNU called for armed actions to stop would it be listened to? Apart from a few it won't. And as useless as armed republican actions are, the Tory cuts do much more harm to the people of the North than the spluttering attempts at armed activity.

This offer of dialogue is all for the optics. I think dialogue is essential. Lines of communication should be open all the time and should be cobweb like, stretching in every direction everywhere and reaching everywhere. But dialogue is so important that its integrity should not be compromised by a sham exercise like this.

And as I suggested in the article, let SF get past the polygraph first before even considering talking to them.

Nuala, I think the crux of Mick3's point, if ...

2013-04-06T09:03:56.162+01:00

Nuala,

I think the crux of Mick3's point, if I understand it, is the lack of cohesion aided by the fragmentation. Prisons operated as single functional units whether we were in the Crum, Kesh, Armagh or Magilligan. Now they don't.

The experience of the Clonard man you refer to was wrong. It leads to elitism, which no group it seems has a monopoly on, and then rivalries outside where people take umbrage and might therefore grow lukewarm about supporting the prisoners of the groups seen as culpable.

This to me is disastrous for protecting the rights of all prisoners. To people like me who have great difficulty in differentiating between the groups in jail, a prisoner is a prisoner. The he said/she said arguments around republican theology don't interest me. All the prisoners should be backed when they are seeking rights.

Fair play to you for not getting dispirited by it all.

Mick3 Groups were made up based on the prison they...

2013-04-06T08:11:37.214+01:00

Mick3
Groups were made up based on the prison they were in ?
Never heard that before. What does it even mean.
People still belonged and aligned with their own particular group irrespective of what prison they were in. In Armagh one O/C ran the gaol and people from a variety of groups fell in with that. We all got on, granted we did not have the problems prisoners are faced with today which is why we admire the stance. But that does not mean that life long Republicans can be ignored or worse still their families ignored in the visiting area. What happened to a Clonard man last year was abhorrent and no one has ever even offered an explanation as to why it happened.

AM- RNU need some good PR that talking to Sinn Fe...

2013-04-06T00:37:21.477+01:00

AM-

RNU need some good PR that talking
to Sinn Fein would give them-they are going to contest the next local elections in the six and throwing shite balloon's at Alliance HQ no longer cuts it-makes them look like the flag protesters-

RNU is playing a tactically weak hand. It is makin...

2013-04-05T21:54:29.570+01:00

RNU is playing a tactically weak hand. It is making it look as if it needs the dialogue more than SF.

Mick3 posting on an earlier article probably summe...

2013-04-05T20:09:32.616+01:00

Mick3 posting on an earlier article probably summed up a lot of feeling:

On the subject of what to do to help, I think the problem is very much an organizational one- had they been represented poperly I think more could have been done to further their cause.

In days past pow groups were made up based on the prison they were in;
today its based on the wing. Some groups cover some on one wing, some on both wings, some say they cover "independent pows" without much elaboration on who they are....etc. Could you imagine the h-block campaign being run like this?

@Ardoyne Republican, the way that the UTV piece wa...

2013-04-05T18:58:04.884+01:00

@Ardoyne Republican, the way that the UTV piece was constructed basically said as much..just wanted to clarify in the context of this discussion...very cynically crafted piece of journalism but not surprising in the current climate I have to admit. A face to face televised debate in the future between Ciaran C. and Declan K. would provide a more level playing field and eliminate the potential for media manipulated favouritism. However, without being over critical the former gave a much more honest appraisal than the latter and the fact that Ciaran C. wasn't sheckled by the constraints of Whitehall was clearly evident and refreshing to hear! PSF have the advantage of having the media on their side, not because of their brand of self styled Republicanism but more because of their perceived 'value' to the British establishment in maintaining the Stormont partitionist status quo. Hence why they will only meet with dissidents on their terms and discuss issues within the parameters of the pseudo peace process.
p.s. look forward to reading the RNU document in the very near future!

Ardoyne Republican, Barney probably did the coalf...

2013-04-05T18:40:04.575+01:00

Ardoyne Republican,

Barney probably did the coalface work and the editing was down to somebody else. I think what people will remember from the programme is that the Shinners are offering to talk to the republicans. The next interest will be stimulated by the nature of the response.

No matter who talks to who the end result will be a SF line that the party has tried and failed to bring about an end to PFR. Because if physical force is to end it is unlikely to result from anything SF has to say. On this Barney Rowan would make a more persuasive case himself to republicans. His argument would come without the baggage that SF would bring to the table.

@Fenian, the interview with Ciaran Cunningham of R...

2013-04-05T17:53:08.086+01:00

@Fenian, the interview with Ciaran Cunningham of RNU took place a number of days prior to the interview with Declan Kearney chara. Ciaran's interview took place when after RNU launched it's new policy document; Revolutionary Republicanism...

Rowan obviously took out and broadcast on air the words he wanted to use chara and as ever, the murky world of journalism continues...

Having said all of the above, RNU are very confident in their political analysis/direction and don't 'fear'a debate with anyone about our way forward for Republicanism..

I would hasten to add that in the context of this...

2013-04-05T16:11:54.904+01:00

I would hasten to add that in the context of this discussion it would be interesting to know if Ciaran C. was aware of what Declan Kearney had actually said in his part of the programme before he gave his response on behalf of RNU to the question of speaking to PSF.. If not then in a sense I feel he may well have been unwittingly dupped into answering YES..as with everything in the murky world of Norn Iron politics the devil is in the detail!

I happened to see this section of UTV Live the oth...

2013-04-05T15:23:01.590+01:00

I happened to see this section of UTV Live the other night & I felt it was completely orchestrated in PSF's favour and to undermine dissidents by the focus on militant Republicanism. Also, the way that the document produced by RNU was deliberately torn to shreds, coupled with the polished reponse from Declan Kearney the programme was clearly geared to make 'dissident' republicanism void of ideology and therefore completely dependant upon militant action to get it's point accross. Furthermore, by getting Ciaran C. to say that he would speak to PSF, added the credibility that PSF were still the best option open for Republicans, even though Declan Kearney clearly said that he would speak with dissidents within the parameters of the Peace Process. I have already given my opinion on current forms of militancy on another thread so will not repeat here. However, the media focus should not ONLY be about dissident armed groups, discontent among grass roots Republicanism is much wider and covers a whole range of issues, from Ballymurphy to 'shoot to kill' etc etc. Throughout our history, militancy has always been an act of last resort in the same way as Hunger Strike has been in the jails. By tarring ALL anti GFA'ers with the same brush creates the impression that we are all void of ideas and the only option available is the militant root. That could not be further from the truth, but until a unified way forward is sought then this perception of anti GFA'ers 'throwing their toys out of the pram' will persist...

Larry, So many people are of the same opinion as y...

2013-04-05T14:15:42.381+01:00

Larry,
So many people are of the same opinion as yourself.
Apart from the overall issue of financial support there is the vulnerability factor. People want to support prisoners they just don't know what to do on this rightly called ' worthy issue'

Fionnuala If there was more info and less confusi...

2013-04-05T13:17:02.094+01:00

Fionnuala

If there was more info and less confusion i think people would be more than happy to contribute to prisoners welfare. I don't know if there's an independent transparent outfit that a few bob can be given to. If not perhaps it's the way to go? It's not appealing to donate to one of a zillion factions whilst not having a clue WTF is going on. But general prisoner welfare is a worthy issue and a 'cover-all' possibility for ex jailbirds and the general public alike without the necessity of 'allegiance' to any group as such.

Roll on May 1st....hoping to learn something new!

Dixie, It is for all our sakes. Most people who h...

2013-04-05T12:06:59.786+01:00

Dixie,
It is for all our sakes. Most people who have raised the issue on this blog I believe have done so out of genuine concern.
Why would we want to be judgemental in relation to the Republican prisoners? Of course there are dynamics that we are not aware of but that does not man we cannot be concerned about the overall issue.
An incident in the prison last year caused grave concern in Clonard and whilst I believe a lot of people were genuine in their condemnation it also gave the mud slingers an opening to justify not supporting a cause that they never supported anyway.
So many people want to do so much more for Republican prisoners a show of unity, at least amongst those we know to be genuine Republican prisoners could provide a way.