Comments on The Pensive Quill: The Veil Must be Opposed

John, ‘Here is the justification of moderate veil...

2012-07-06T07:41:19.576+01:00

John,

‘Here is the justification of moderate veiling “ ... For if a woman will not veil herself, then she should cut off her hair; but if it is disgraceful for a woman to be shorn or shaven, let her wear a veil ... “
’
Religious bunkum. Why would any woman listen to such Corinthians crap?

‘At the very least, a woman should have her head covered at Mass.’

And we should have the morality police in the pews to beat her with sticks just in case she doesn’t perform.

‘this is to reject Christian tradition for the sterile barrenness of feminism.’

And?

Ha Nuala got ya.thats why coffins have six handles...

2012-06-27T19:48:04.387+01:00

Ha Nuala got ya.thats why coffins have six handles,one down all down,its a democratic way to go,

Marty, Yes! you have to go first, otherwise Marie...

2012-06-27T19:31:38.875+01:00

Marty,
Yes! you have to go first, otherwise Marie cannot atone for your sins that's the religious aspect, the secular and customary one being her life is worthless if you are no longer living.

Ironically it would prove beneficial for the mistresses, they would just have to show up on the day with the insurance policies.

Here Nuala this burning alive of the wife ..er.......

2012-06-27T14:43:13.780+01:00

Here Nuala this burning alive of the wife ..er.... is it compulsory that the hubbie has to be brown bread first?.kinda taken to that idea..as for being stoned ..well hon let me tell you about the 60,s....Marie left a note on the tellie for me ......its not working I,m off....plugged it in turned it on ,f##kin nothing wrong with it...daft woman...

Marty, In India they were burnt alive! According ...

2012-06-27T14:05:52.557+01:00

Marty,
In India they were burnt alive!
According to Indan custom a widow has not any real value after her husband is gone, therefore her place should be beside him on the funeral pyre.
While it is argued that a lot of these deaths were voluntary, in most instances the women were drugged and tied beside their husbands corpse.

The Brits did eventually ban this practice in the early 20th century, however much to their shame they over-turned former bans and allowed it to take place under-regulation.

Recently a friend told me she had watched a documentary about a women being stoned in Afghanistan.
Apparently, and rightly so, the British target audience was appallled by the horror of the women's fate which they said was direct result of Taliban law.
Stoning and stoning women in Afghanistan has been a custom for centuries. It does not have any particular legal or religious jurisdication.
What I find so incredible is the fact that in our so-called civilised west, women are just as likely to endure the same fate and the light sentences handed down to the abuser i.e. murderer guarantee its acceptance.

Mayam, This is a brilliant article, but I don'...

2012-06-27T10:50:36.337+01:00

Mayam,
This is a brilliant article, but I don't know how far I would go with the argument that these vile practices are essentially religious.
Suttee or the pyre as I said pre-dates religion. Many of the vile practices which still prevail in Africa pre-date the Christian /Islam religions in that country, althought one of the worst female gential mutiliation is almost totally religion driven.
Widows in Africa actually endure a somewhat worse fate than the pyre as once the hubby goes their lives are made a living hell.
Scold's bridle, stoning and all the other women hating practices were carried out in equal measure amongst the secular as the religious.
Foot binding in China is more of a cultural-status tradition as was their one child policy with preference to male children.

I just believe the duration of oppression against women is a testimony to its acceptability into all cultures and creeds irrespective of culture or creed.
Religion may have reinforced its acceptability and gave it the holy seal, but I believe it would have florished totally unabated with or without the help of the holy men and women.

Nuala didnt they burn women alive here a while bac...

2012-06-27T10:29:35.211+01:00

Nuala didnt they burn women alive here a while back! in India at least the waited untill they were dead, I,m getting burnt when I fall off my perch in keeping with republican tradition.

@ Fionnuala Vrindavan aka the City of Widows (Indi...

2012-06-27T10:01:25.234+01:00

@ Fionnuala Vrindavan aka the City of Widows (India) as it is commonly known is a dumping ground for unwanted female sector of humanity – widowed women No-one wants them. It is just horrendous.... They eke out an existence together.... Anytime i get self pity on me i only got to think of women all over the world who suffer so profoundly... makes our lives look so beautiful in comparison...

@ JJ you are quoting scriptures that were written ...

2012-06-27T10:00:50.979+01:00

@ JJ you are quoting scriptures that were written at a particular time in history where veiling and so on was commonplace & not hooked into an agenda of oppression on women like it is now. It is not relevant whether one wears a mantilla or a sombrero when worshipping God. That is just externals. Last time i checked Christian scriptures God was solely interested in what is in a persons heart, mind, spirit. I note the quote you gave is from catholicplanet.com Well my information is from FirefortheVatican.com Donations to saint?maryhedgehog Only substantial monetary donations are accepted Cash preferred. :-)

@ marty There is only one pertinent use of the bur...

2012-06-27T10:00:28.663+01:00

@ marty There is only one pertinent use of the burqa & niqab for me where it would be fairly useful – feeling fugly? fat, pimply, mad and bloated. Just throw the garb on and head into town knowing people can only see yer eyes glowing with rage lookin out. A kickarse infidel on the move You could always put a message on the burqa – like a billboard. The chador is quite nifty too A great cover up with just your face looming out at the world.

Re Bahar writing in – the poor wee girl... what a ...

2012-06-27T09:59:53.728+01:00

Re Bahar writing in – the poor wee girl... what a living hell has been put on her & with no exit in sight... That is what enrages & sickens me to the gut... That being birthed into this wretched madness of an oppressive religion the escape route is nearly nil... Even in women’s refuges (i have worked in one) you know that some will return to this hell because the family blood ties are so strong... They go back knowing brutality, denigration and possibly death awaits them if they step out of line again. Even accessing help will be punished severely...

Re ‘The veil, more than anything else, symbolises this bleak reality.’
I never thought of it like that but yes it does send out the message loud and clear I am subjugated or dedicated by or to religion and must obey the dictates of how I dress/live. Conversely though for some who wear it they do so willingly. One cannot generalise – make such a sweeping overview statement as it may not be true for all.

Re: ‘You’ve also all heard Australia’s senior Islamic cleric, Sheik Taj Aldin al-Hilali comparing unveiled women to ‘uncovered meat’ implying that they invite rape and sexual assault.’
Yes that walking talking lump of a human being is revered by young men who are being brainwashed with heinous notions of what women are. Makes it easy then to enforce rules and regulations on women. Also makes rape of the girl or woman – always the females fault. It is all a misogynistic self serving agenda plotted carefully on females from the womb to the tomb.

Re: ‘We have to state loud and clear that sexual apartheid has no place in the 21st century; enough is enough.’
I agree the veiling of children is abuse of rights of the child as it is grooming them to subjugation – normalising subjugation – ensuring no resistance forms although it always will. But by the time the resistance occurs the fear is cemented in there of repercussions. Confusion between the right to religious freedom versus universal rights of all human beings to live as they choose as pointed out.

I am not so sure however one can demand a ban on adults wearing the garb. It is their right if they are convicted to do so to wear this just like a monk wears robes, a sexworker wears next to nothing, a businessman wears a suit and on it goes. I personally feel sad seeing women believing that wearing this garb is a spiritual act of devotion rather than a brainwash number but then i feel sad seeing young women hawking their forks in bondage gear on the streets of cities. It is all denigration and subjugation of the female.

Some Muslim woman are happy with wearing burqa and some sexworkers (mind u not many) state happiness with their lifestyle....

Marty, Women's status in these countries is a...

2012-06-26T23:14:56.691+01:00

Marty,
Women's status in these countries is a much more determining factor than religion.
Women being burned on the funeral pires in India is arguably tied in with certain religious codes but the predominant factors are secular.
Women are burned because they are considered worthless if they are without a man.
The majority of these practices pre-date religion, although the holy men were only too happy to avail of the 'God made man in his own image'
I remember reading about how the Brits claimed to help quash some of these 'out-dated practices in India'
Which is like saying it's ok to punch kick or beat a woman to death in our partially, secular, civilised Western society just stop the infidels from doing like-wise.

JJ that sounds a bit like ;Girl for a boy,boy fo...

2012-06-26T18:36:35.387+01:00

JJ that sounds a bit like ;Girl for a boy,boy for a man and a goat for pleasure ...

John, it's not his head the altarboy needs to...

2012-06-26T17:39:55.469+01:00

John,

it's not his head the altarboy needs to cover!

Every error is an exaggeration of a truth. Islam i...

2012-06-26T16:31:37.550+01:00

Every error is an exaggeration of a truth. Islam is closer to the truth than most today, but goes too far.

Here is the justification of moderate veiling.

"But I want you to understand that the head of every man is Christ, the head of a woman is her husband, and the head of Christ is God. Any man who prays or prophesies with his head covered dishonors his head, but any woman who prays or prophesies with her head unveiled dishonors her head—it is the same as if her head were shaven. For if a woman will not veil herself, then she should cut off her hair; but if it is disgraceful for a woman to be shorn or shaven, let her wear a veil.
"For a man ought not to cover his head, since he is the image and glory of God; but woman is the glory of man. (For man was not made from woman, but woman from man. Neither was man created for woman, but woman for man.) That is why a woman ought to have a veil on her head, because of the angels....If any one is disposed to be contentious, we recognize no other practice, nor do the churches of God." (1 Corinthians 11:3-10,16)

At the very least, a woman should have her head covered at Mass. To refuse to do this is to reject Christian tradition for the sterile barrenness of feminism.

http://www.catholicplanet.com/women/headcovering.htm

Would you include" that masked man" the ...

2012-06-26T14:34:36.230+01:00

Would you include" that masked man" the lone ranger in your list of personae non gratae in the teaching of your chilblains a cara,but I agree with your points,other than a dodgy fashion statement women and men should have the freedom to wear or not anything they chose rather than have such garments imposed upon them,hinduism and its caste system is worthy of mention as well here,people by nature of their birth are marked as "unclean" ffs.

The cultural/religious pressure to wear these thin...

2012-06-26T13:50:46.221+01:00

The cultural/religious pressure to wear these things is clearly immense but it is a side of the debate the veilers often want to be hidden in the hope that veining will be seen as a voluntary act. The element of coercion should always be brought out into the open.

At the same time the liberal in me balks at the notion of saying to women you cannot wear them. As a general rule people should be allowed to wear what they want. The right to wear a Ku Klux Klan hood should be no stronger or weaker than the right to wear a veil.

Should people be allowed to cover up in public? This is more tricky but I don't feel that in general they should be. If someone is allowed to veil up in public then the same right to mask/hood up should avail. I know that I would not permit my children to be taught in school by a masked man or woman.

I accept the premises of Maryam’s argument but I withhold assent on the conclusions she draws. She is a great public speaker by the way. I was enthralled by her at the World Atheist Convention in Dublin last year. I have cooperated with her on and off over the past six years and find her a remarkable activist

In this modern society The Women of this world sho...

2012-06-26T13:21:33.114+01:00

In this modern society The Women of this world should have equal rights, but, If women of the Muslim faith are told to wear the veil, then they have right to refuse, A lot of young Muslim women are dressing in modern clothing all over Europe. The mullahs and Jihad clerics need to get a grip on themselves , spouting crap , ffs has no one told these people who live in the 1st century , ITS THE 21st CENTURY. Our own catholic church used to be the same, Women could not enter the chapel without there head being covered, Time to get on in life. I say, support those Muslim women who do not wish to wear the veil.

Another case of someone,s opinion ruining peoples ...

2012-06-26T11:15:35.531+01:00

Another case of someone,s opinion ruining peoples lives, veils ,burkas and the rest unless worn by consent or a fashion statement(I know I know but theres no accounting for taste)all religion for far to long has dominated and ruined the lives of so many for so long now,its well past the time that these throwbacks to the time of a flat earth and burning bushes were left behind,it seems to me that both "christianity and muslim sect" are building up another head of steam to slaughter each other all over again and all in the name of god or allah or some other dickhead!