Comments on The Pensive Quill: New Human Rights: Sausages & Beer for Bigots

John, A state that does not permit divorce is in ...

2012-07-24T18:45:21.510+01:00

John,

A state that does not permit divorce is in fact maintaining forced marriages. People not priests will decide who they marry and to whom they shall remain married. The non married are going to tell the married what to do in their marriage! LOL.

‘The trouble with David Quinn is he believes in de facto marriage for homosexuals, provided they are not referred to as 'marriages'. He has already conceded the argument.’

I doubt if he believes in it at all. He knows the way society is moving and if Catholicism is to maintain any influence has to move with it to some extent.

‘What will really impact is if the State should try to impose its version on the Church.’

And what would the Church do if as you say it is filled with rogues and ne’r do wells?

‘what the State does now, is of little consequence.’

I think you have that back to front. What the Church does now is of little consequence. Funny auld geezers in pointy hats and frocks are hardly going to be taken seriously.

‘It is only natural that a neo-pagan people have neo-pagan morals, which will be expressed and acclaimed, much to the detriment of Irish Society.’

Paganism was the source of many ideas for Christianity. They had the zombie trick too.

An opinion that can be vented and if people want to share it they should be free. For those who wish to dissent from it, the same freedom applies.

‘I totally disagree with your assertion that the Irish people want freedom.’

They clearly want freedom from the type of ideas expressed by you, the freedom to divorce, freedom from republican violence, freedom to use contraception inter alia.

‘If they did, they would demand Britain leave, and would organize a Thirty Two County Republic. Anything less is bullsh*t!’

And the freedom not to listen to bibleshit, or to you telling them what and only what they can be free from.

Neanderthal McCausland calls for creation of new b...

2012-07-21T15:36:31.399+01:00

Neanderthal McCausland calls for creation of new ban

From Helen McClafferty: Has It Really Taken Over ...

2012-07-17T13:46:31.332+01:00

From Helen McClafferty:

Has It Really Taken Over 200 Years for the Orange Order to Realise They Have Been “Used Throughout History” by Damian Herron, NI Chair, Free Gerry McGeough Campaign.

Bigoted Orange Boots want to tramp through the streets of our capital city Dublin? Will they acknowledge their role in creating division and conflict? Do they want to “move forward together” while Republican prisoners are being brutalised in Maghaberry prison? Has it really taken over 200 years for the Orange Order to realise they have been “used throughout history” by others?

The Orange Order has not been “used throughout history” as Drew Nelson states. It has allowed itself to be used as the cesspit of bigotry and sectarianism. Their history is one of anti-Catholic bigoted sectarianism and triumphalism. How many members of the Orange Order were involved in sectarian murders?

He did not acknowledge the brutality of the RUC and British soldiers against the people of the Garvaghy Road who were battered senseless so that Orange Boots could be forced through a Nationalist area. He did not acknowledge the deaths as a result of Orange Order intransigence at the height of the Drumcree dispute.

Apparently they wish to move forward with the Irish Government and are “here today to show their support for that commitment”. What commitment have the Orange Order made to the Irish Government? Have they committed to reroute their triumphalist parades away from areas where they are not wanted? Will they commit to recognising those who suffered at the hands of Orange Order members who joined the UDR?

We are not “moving forward” while Gerry McGeough lies in Maghaberry prison. If the Orange Order are genuine about “moving forward” let them make a commitment to seek justice for Gerry McGeough and his family. Let them commit to seeking justice for all those Irish people who have suffered as a result of their bigoted sectarianism. Let them call on the British Government to implement in full the Weston Park Accord as agreed in 2001 and let them call for the immediate release of Gerry McGeough.

It is the Orange bigots and Unionist politicians who need to take “giant steps” and prove their desire to move forward towards a genuine peace. Gerry McGeough’s incarceration is a direct result of the Orange State that still exists within the occupied counties of Ireland. While Gerry McGeough lies in prison, we are not “moving forward”. Let’s not forget the others who are imprisoned in Ireland without trial in 2012 because of British and Unionist oppression towards our people.

This is the same bigot who has been trying to co...

2012-07-17T13:27:53.344+01:00

This is the same bigot who has been trying to con people into thinking the earth was created 6000 years ago. Here he is trying to sell a different brand of snake oil around the Orange dance outside a Catholic church

Naked sectarian hatred with Orange banner to boot

2012-07-16T12:42:58.323+01:00

Naked sectarian hatred with Orange banner to boot

'The Irish people do want freedom. They choose...

2012-07-15T10:28:57.537+01:00

'The Irish people do want freedom. They choose what it is they want to be free from and won’t be denied that choice by others making the choice for them.'

Freedom from a disgraceful RC church and from understandable but non-the-less futile republican violence maybe? And if support for embarassing turncoat SF is the best tool for the job, then so be it. Might that be a reasonable evaluation?

AM, The trouble with David Quinn is he believes i...

2012-07-14T21:17:53.871+01:00

AM,

The trouble with David Quinn is he believes in de facto marriage for homosexuals, provided they are not referred to as ‘marriages’. He has already conceded the argument.

The real issue here is that there have been (at least) two understandings of what marriage is for many years, that of an indissoluble life-long union between a man and a woman, and that of the State that permits divorce and other evils. What will really impact is if the State should try to impose its version on the Church.

Provided it doesn’t do that, which it will never succeed in, then, what the State does now, is of little consequence. It is only natural that a neo-pagan people have neo-pagan morals, which will be expressed and acclaimed, much to the detriment of Irish Society.

I totally disagree with your assertion that the Irish people want freedom. If they did, they would demand Britain leave, and would organize a Thirty Two County Republic. Anything less is bullsh*t!

John, While I don’t agree with his argument I th...

2012-07-14T18:18:26.792+01:00

John,

While I don’t agree with his argument I thought he acquitted himself well. His argument is lost anyway whatever his view on gay partnerships. The tides are shifting in favour of a human rights rather than a religious view of the matter. I think he tried to couch his argument in terms of rights. And I think he gave his opponents something to think about.

At the end of the day nobody is being forced into marriage. There is a difference of opinion on the matter and society will settle it for us. Can’t see any other way to approach the matter. If society does not decide who shall? And if you don’t want to marry a man you don’t have to. And if you do you can.

‘I found it very depressing viewing altogether.’

I found it uplifting. It was a good exchange. We need exposed to more debates like that. Could you imagine the reception it would have provoked had Iris Robinson been arguing the case rather than David Quinn?

The Irish people do want freedom. They choose what it is they want to be free from and won’t be denied that choice by others making the choice for them.

John, I am sure there are decent people in the KK...

2012-07-14T18:03:54.119+01:00

John,

I am sure there are decent people in the KKK. Don't ask me to name any as I don't know any. I have never met an organisation yet that didn't have some decent people in it. I have met many decent screws over the years even though they belong to a profession where you start at the bottom and wrok your way down.

To presume that the 'goodness' or 'badness' of an institution somehow transfers into the personalities of each member would be a mistake. That would mean every organisation with a good cause would be made up of good people. How we have learned that is not so to our cost.

People join organisations for a range of reasons. As we have seen only too sharply with the Provos it is not always for ideological causes. Some go along to get along. And ultimately what we also found with the Provos is that many people would rather be wrong than isolated.

Nuala,

I grew up seeing all that myself. Took more beatings as a kid because of that mentality. I have a strong dislike for the Orange Order but don’t let that rule out different experiences that I have had of individual members. I think Brian Kennaway is one example of a senior Orange Order figure who is not some raving bigot, is intellectually very capable, has taken many principled positions against the Order, even wrote a book deeply critical of it.

Fionnuala, AM, 'I don't see any differenc...

2012-07-14T16:36:53.061+01:00

Fionnuala, AM,

'I don't see any difference between them and the Klu Klux Klan, are we asked to believe there are decent people in that organisation?'

I second that question.

Would you, AM seriously contend that there are decent people in the KKK? (Although I understand that the KKK is now much more inclusive than the Orange Order is.)

AM, 'There was an interesting debate on this ...

2012-07-14T16:29:11.291+01:00

AM,

'There was an interesting debate on this topic on Prime Time the other evening between David Quinn and Monnine Griffith. Worth watching.'

Just watched it. David Quinn was as weak and ineffectual as he normally is. The fact that he supports 'gay partnerships' and 'gay adoption' means that he has lost before the argument is begun.

He did land one good blow though, when he reminded her of how much they value 'difference' just to be told when it comes to parenting it is of no consequence.

I found it very depressing viewing altogether. The old adage about the best when corrupted becomes the worst springs to mind. It certainly applies to the moral collapse of the Irish nation. No wonder they have no interest in freedom when they are so quick to follow the latest slavish moral degradation.

Mackers, I knew some of them to, half the street ...

2012-07-14T16:19:35.319+01:00

Mackers,
I knew some of them to, half the street I grew up in seemingly belonged to some branch of the orange order.
They tolerated us until it was time to wear the sash and then they were barely recognisable.
No doubt over tea and biscuits they could facilitate the odd fenian rant, but it doesn't change them.
Never heard any of their intellects speaking out or condemning the random and at times unspeakably vicious murder of innocent Catholics.
I have yet to hear them condemn their slip-up outside St Annes Cathedral,, maybe such incidents are too petty to strike at the heart of their intellectual life.
Too busy spinning a load of lies and deceit around their yearly festivity of hatred.

Nuala, as I said I know some of them. Some are hi...

2012-07-14T15:57:09.858+01:00

Nuala,

as I said I know some of them. Some are highly intelligent and have been in rows with the organisation over the years. They certainly don't see things as I do but that's the heart of intellectual life. They are quite relaxed with criticisms of them and the Order. Not all of them are of the Dawson Bailie mentality

Mackers, I don't agree with that. I don't...

2012-07-14T15:50:58.261+01:00

Mackers,
I don't agree with that. I don't see any difference between them and the Klu Klux Klan, are we asked to believe there are decent people in that organisation?
For the most they are underpinned and driven by hatred.
Maybe there are few of the less intelligant who have joined up to blow a whistle or bang a drum, but they are in the minority and decidely out of step.

John, they are even bigoted on this as well. Ther...

2012-07-14T12:08:59.502+01:00

John,

they are even bigoted on this as well. There was an interesting debate on this topic on Prime Time the other evening between David Quinn and Monnine Griffith. Worth watching.

Ryan would not have agreed a while ago. But orange...

2012-07-14T11:35:35.009+01:00

Ryan
would not have agreed a while ago. But orange/PSNI tinkering and SF uselessness combined with the existense of hostlity between the communities I saw on tv this last few days; I recon your 3 yrs could be generous.
A Nazareen or a town centre took out of it now and the huns will think its christmas all over again.

They might be a shower of bigots, but I would take...

2012-07-14T11:28:35.866+01:00

They might be a shower of bigots, but I would take my hat off to them on this issue:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-18827235

Larry Hughes-"The PSNI and Orange Order seem ...

2012-07-14T03:05:36.590+01:00

Larry Hughes-"The PSNI and Orange Order seem intent on starting things again. Maybe they just don't have anything else to live for? Or maybe they miss the plentiful overpaid jobs? Pitty about them!"
I just could not agree more. I think state forces are actually getting a little bored of the peace process. I give the entire peace farce 3 more years. The boredom, mixed with the state repression along with the recession is undoubtedly going to collapse this farce sooner rather than later.

Nuala, many of them ask the same question of the ...

2012-07-13T23:38:18.271+01:00

Nuala,

many of them ask the same question of the IRA. People have a variety of motives for joining organisations. Every organisation has decent people. Who would recommend that anyone join the prison service? Yet time out of number we have met decent screws. Even during the blanket they were to be found. I try not to lose sight of people. Organisations can depersonalise and dehumanise people and I find it beneficial to look beyond that. But I don't think we should make the mistake of reading the organisation off from some of the people we know within it. Decent people in an organisation don't make it decent.

Mackers, If you were a decent person why would you...

2012-07-13T23:29:20.644+01:00

Mackers,
If you were a decent person why would you associate yourself with them.
I had the misfortune to encounter them at three different locations yesterday and I can only say 'orange culture' must now be a euphemism for raw sectarian hatred brcause that was the only thing on display.

Not really John. I find them institutionally a big...

2012-07-13T21:53:37.423+01:00

Not really John. I find them institutionally a bigoted organisation that uses religion to prosecute hate. But I know there are people in it who are decent and far from your typical hater of all things Catholic. Some of them have a real religious passion but don't express it with hate. They speak about Christ pretty much as you do and think he is a god. They won't be found marching through Ardoyne. Then you have the others who love it only because it does march through Ardoyne.

AM, I have never viewed the Orange Order as a rel...

2012-07-13T20:59:28.875+01:00

AM,

I have never viewed the Orange Order as a religious organization. It never really occurred to me that it was, but maybe I have only ever seen there hatred. You seem to be aware of another side to them that has escaped me.

Well personally I don't think people's tra...

2012-07-13T20:43:24.886+01:00

Well personally I don't think people's tradition should be messed with. The Orange Order have a wonderful tradition of marching from church services back to burned down Orange Halls. Long may it continue!

John, I think they are ‘institutionally intoleran...

2012-07-13T20:20:58.936+01:00

John,

I think they are ‘institutionally intolerant of Catholics.’ In a sense that is like the Catholic Church being institutionally intolerant of gays.

They do dissent and often are sanctioned for it. Although I don’t see how you could have a problem with that given that you label dissent from Catholic teaching as heresy.

I know religious types can hate each other so I tend to take that as a given but like yourself it is their supremacism that annoys me. If they wanted to walk past my house simply out of religious observation I would not batt an eyelid but they can’t make me abide by their religious opinion.

I guess there are non believers marching past Ardoyne just for the sheer hell of lording it over the residents.

AM, 'I think as an institution it is very bigo...

2012-07-13T20:02:03.278+01:00

AM,
'I think as an institution it is very bigoted but I don't believe everybody in it is a bigot.'

Well, shall we just agree that they are, at the very least, institutionally intolerant of Catholics?

Should anyone dissent on an individual basis, they would best not let it be known to their 'worshipful brethren' or they would likely get ejected.

I imagine there are probably some negro-friendly members of the KKK, but I wouldn't recommend their joining it.

BTW, it is not so much their anti-Catholicism that annoys me, it is that they go out of their way to offend Catholics. A lot of Protestant groups are anti-Catholic etc but most don't feel the need to tramp over the Ardoyne and anywhere else they can offend the most, (save insofar as they have dual membership).