Comments on The Pensive Quill: Struggle for Political Recognition will Continue.

Tain Bo, It just adds a dark side to the republic...

2011-12-17T10:10:15.010Z

Tain Bo,

It just adds a dark side to the republican struggle which with each passing year is eclipsing whatever bright side it laid claim to. What was done to the families of the disappeared and the hunger strikers reveals a dimension to the struggle that any shred of decency would recoil at.

Anthony, That would raise a question as to what r...

2011-12-15T21:48:48.003Z

Anthony,

That would raise a question as to what role the person or persons hold today within the reformed republican movement (silent enforcers?)

Tain Bo, ‘it would not be a far stretch of the im...

2011-12-15T21:18:42.733Z

Tain Bo,

‘it would not be a far stretch of the imagination to suggest that some low level informers may have met their end as a cover up protecting the more senior spies within the PRM.’

I would say this is a certainty.

I guess an element of sadism and perverse pleasure was derived by the architect of the disappeared. A person would need to be cruel beyond reason to carry on torturing those families for decades on end.

Anthony, I am inclined to agree with you on this ...

2011-12-12T19:14:56.484Z

Anthony,

I am inclined to agree with you on this more so on the serious effort to prevent it that may have well spared other families the same fate.

“I think since the Scap outing there is now a greater acceptance that people were tortured by the IRA. I believe there were serious efforts to prevent it but it happened nonetheless.”

The point you make about Scap could also have a correlation on the subject it would not be a far stretch of the imagination to suggest that some low level informers may have met their end as a cover up protecting the more senior spies within the PRM.

I cannot find any reason for inflicting this form of punishment on the families of the disappeared. The issue has more questions than answers.
The only logical reason I could see is the psychological fear factor aimed mainly at the nationalist people and perhaps more so at the members of PIRA/INLA.

As I stated I can understand the position of executing spies/informers I am curious as to what level of information the disappeared could have passed on that would warrant their double punishment.
Punishing the families leans towards the sociopathic there is no justification for that.

Anthony, I have been mulling over the issue and w...

2011-12-03T22:10:55.858Z

Anthony,

I have been mulling over the issue and will have more free time tomorrow to try to put a reply together. It is a very touchy subject but as I said most people like to avoid the idea of torture existing.
I could mention Castlereagh and the torture of both republicans and loyalists… and probably get a response.
The subject of the disappeared much like the subject of the Shankill Butchers I am not so sure people want to look further into things like that.

Tain Bo, Good point about torture. Extreme sport ...

2011-12-02T17:29:02.343Z

Tain Bo,
Good point about torture.

Extreme sport is exactly how water boarding sounds. How they make something so vile sound so innocuous.

I think since the Scap outing there is now a greater acceptance that people were tortured by the IRA. I believe there were serious efforts to prevent it but it happened nonetheless.

Found your take on the disappeared worth further consideration. I think the reason you provide for it is accurate. Most of us take the view that they did it for other reasons, avoiding scandals etc. But your argument makes a sense. It does take a particular type of ruthlessness, never used in the service of anything good, which would keep a family tormented for years. And those capable of that type of ruthlessness would be capable of and willing to apply it in other situations.

Alfie, I would assume in the heat of battle ethic...

2011-11-30T20:22:24.500Z

Alfie,

I would assume in the heat of battle ethics morals codes of conduct and decorum would be replaced with the built in instinct all humans share self-preservation.

On the subject of torture we could bunker down for lengthy debate on its practice and use the world over. It is both an industry and a science so to speak as it employs “interrogators” the term is palatable to society as few want to believe torture still exists in our modern world.

The term “water-boarding” sounds like one of those new extreme sports rather than the scientifically established method of inducing the fear of drowning. Torture from the simple to the more sophisticated has a dual role. One it is used to extract information from enemies of a State and two it sends a disturbing subliminal message to society that if you challenge the status quo you could end up on the wrong side of a desk.

I would be foolish and in a clear state of denial, if I said republicans did not use torture. I would assume the disappeared may well have been “interrogated” before being executed.
I can only speculate on the horrific reasoning for disposing of the bodies other than to strike fear within the nationalist community by saying not only shall we execute you but we shall inflict the most severe mental anguish on your family by holding a dead body hostage in a secret grave.
I can understand and accept their position on executing “informers” though to torture families and deny them the right to bury their loved ones is a sadistically sick punishment I can find no reason to inflict that mental torture on families.

I am not saying the volunteers who took part in the executions derived any sadistic pleasure from it as they were following orders. I would question the logic of the leadership who issued the order to further humiliate the executed by disposing of them in secret graves.

Torture comes in many forms but its formula all equates to the same thing regardless if it is a screw putting a sly boot into a prisoner or a government silencing detractors it is a part of human history and will continue to be so as I said it is both an industry and a science.

Every time I click on the Quill, the first thing I read is the quote by Carl Jung.

Perhaps when we face our conscience we are looking at our greatest friend and foe and the one thing we really have little control over the human mind.

I will attempt to answer the rest of your post later today or tomorrow.

Tain Bo, that seems a good way to look at it

2011-11-30T16:05:32.223Z

Tain Bo,

that seems a good way to look at it

Anthony, I would be concerned if things didn’t ge...

2011-11-30T15:46:17.431Z

Anthony,

I would be concerned if things didn’t get a bit rowdy now and again. That would go against the one freedom we have self-thought.

Tain Bo, It has been a bit loud but that happens ...

2011-11-30T10:05:50.923Z

Tain Bo,

It has been a bit loud but that happens and better to be loud than not heard at all. I think as Nuala points out the regulars here tend to know when to pull back. For the most part if sharp exchanges don’t take place on obituaries I am fairly relaxed about it.

Alfie,

I am just reading through Michael Walzer’s 1977 work on just and unjust wars. He addresses some of the issues raised by you. I think the moral questions always need asked. It keeps people thinking even if they do not always act accordingly.

Nuala,

The social control you talk about is very real. We tend to forget about it when we move out as we don’t feel it breathing down our necks. But as a former prisoner was saying to me last night the issues raised by you on social control and the marginalisation of alternative opinion are forever present on the ground in those areas. He says it is impossible to live there and not see it.

I also think we can never avoid what you call the 'airey fairy' notions of how war is fought. Wars in my view should always be made harder to justify rather than easier.

Nula, I catch your drift as we have been down the...

2011-11-29T20:31:57.292Z

Nula,

I catch your drift as we have been down the same street before with Larry. In fairness to Anthony it is his blog and accordingly he should step in when he feels people are over stepping boundaries.

I don’t object to Alfie adding his view on the posts though I do consider it unfair that he singled you out. I didn’t consider it a slanging match and took nothing personal when Larry pointed out my literacy problems and other sarcastic remarks that have nothing to with the issue.

I hold fast on my own principle I cannot separate my support for the prison struggle then and can see no difference in it now as it is the same issue. I bowed out of questioning Larry as I know that he won’t answer or elaborate his position or when he does it is fused with inconsistency and sarcasm.

As for the argument of peace and stability being the wish of the majority it is extremely trendy today. The irony and weakness of that argument is that the exact same majority wished for the same thing but dared not speak out against the then “normality” of Para-military rule.
Hypocrisy is the rule of thumb and the peace accord is fancy window dressing for the politicians.

All I can say to that “Mr. Robinson and Mr. Adams tear down those walls.”
Hardly a sign of progress when two communities are still separated by incorrectly named “peace walls” if things like that are normal then who am I to disagree with the “new status quo” which looks identical to the old status quo.

Tain Bo, I would like to think that, in any war, ...

2011-11-29T20:30:25.445Z

Tain Bo,

I would like to think that, in any war, the immoral conduct of one's enemy is never reason enough to abandon one's own principles. Incidentally, I have fewer moral problems with executing captured soldiers as I have with torturing them. I am inclined to believe that there is never any justification for torture. This judgment is based on my own experiences of physical and pyschological pain. Pain, in my view, is the worst thing in the world and so the goal of human beings ought to be to minimize pain as much as possible. So the claims that republicans tortured people are very troubling for me.

My great-grandfather fought for the IRA in the War of Independence and he found it hard to admit to my father that he had killed anybody. He would just say that he had men in his sights and that he fired at them. The idea that he had taken human life seemed for him to hard to bear. That said, I do believe his cause was worthy and his war justified.

Alfie, The ambush at Kilmicheal is controversial ...

2011-11-29T18:00:48.999Z

Alfie,

The ambush at Kilmicheal is controversial and was at the time even more so as the British could not believe or accept that the well-staged military ambush wiped out two lorry loads of what was then considered their most elite forces.
I don’t think their outrage was anything less than shock that elite war hardened veterans of World War 1 were “decimated” by a band of irregular fighters. Not that every soldier in the convoy had served time at the front.

It is a bit on the hypocrite side as prior to the ambush the British forces delivered summary execution at Croke Park to non-combatants as indiscriminate reprisals against civilians.

I mention the Croke Park massacre with reason at such close quarters I wonder under the pandemonium how long would it have taken for each of the cold blooded murderers to hear and obey the order to ceasefire.
The same could be applied at the ambush sight as it was extremely close quarters. Did the second lorry of the convoy yell out we surrender and even if they did, could the ambushers hear it over the din of the fighting.
The most appalling act of cold blooded murder was carried out when one of the two surviving soldiers sought help at a house if I recall correctly although badly wounded and clearly no threat to anyone he was executed by the IRA and dumped in a bog.

The aftermath leading to some very unorthodox tactics of taking unfortunate civilian hostages in convoys, more reprisals against civilians not to mention martial law and a complete change in strategy against the IRA.
The shockwave sent through the mighty British to the extent that they feared for the prime minister barricading Downing Street which must have been an unusual sight for the locals.

We only have to look at Derry and bloody Sunday clearly the white flags of surrender meant nothing to the blood thirsty Para’s.

Tain Bo, My understanding is that it was the IRA&...

2011-11-29T15:36:48.058Z

Tain Bo,

My understanding is that it was the IRA's policy during the War of Independence to release Crown forces who surrendered to them or to exchange them for captured volunteers. I mean, isn't that why there was such controversy over what happened during the Kilmichael ambush?

You have,nt seen the half of it Nuala,wait tlll th...

2011-11-29T15:13:28.097Z

You have,nt seen the half of it Nuala,wait tlll the boyos from Thatcher house start implementing their tory master,s cuts here and try telling us if it wasnt for them and Peter the punt things would be a lot worse.

Tain Bo, I think we all know at this stage we hav...

2011-11-29T12:25:35.273Z

Tain Bo,
I think we all know at this stage we have remain with in the guidelines of acceptablity dictated by the 'Quill'
At times Larry likes to crank it up a bit to generate a certain reponse and sometimes some of us oblige.

Sinn Fein could not exist in it's present from if it were not for the thought dictates and social control.
Referring back to Alfies comment that people have a will for normalisation.
How can we ever experience anything remotely like that when we are so controlled.
Where I live it is scarey. Sinn Fein have this area sealed tighter than a drum. Not for the peoples benefit but to ensure nothing unfolds unless they give the nod.
Sinn Fein control all community activity i.e. housing allocation, community job allocation. To the extent, they actually demanded a worker in West Belfast be removed from his job as he was allegedly linked to 'dissident activity'
No Republican even on their worst day could ever have envisaged what we were sold here and people call this normalisation.

Alfie, You have as much entitlement as the rest o...

2011-11-29T11:37:53.351Z

Alfie,
You have as much entitlement as the rest of us to point something out which you think is in bad taste or deviates from the thread of the discussion.
However I don't think I did. I think Larry set the tone and I responded, more grounded and reasonable people could probably rise about such comments unfortuantely I cannot.
Alfie, political status is a status which is accorded to prisoners of war. It is not conditional on an act or dictated by some airy fairy belief of how war should be conducted.
The Brits blew the heart out of Germany during the second world war and they were accorded political status, even the ones who were reponsible for the horrific deaths of thousands of innocent civilians.
If you read the Irish Jurist political status on line. You will read that, beginning with ODonovan Rossa, Irish Republican prisoners have had to battle through the most dehumanising conditions accorded to any group of prisoners by any enemy for their political recognition.
It was hard fought and won by Billy McKee in the early 70's only to be snatched away during the new think criminalisation and normalisation policies. It was hard fought for in 81 and we are all only too aware of the eventual outcome of that one.

You are right normalisation is what people want, but we never got it. Instead we got a papering over the cracks exercise and now the cracks are becoming all too apparent.
Normalisation in the North of Ireland is based on the theory, tell the people things are normal for long enough and eventually they will believe it. Just as the criminalisation policy was succesfully based on the theory tell people these politcal dissenters are criminals and they will believe it.
A few Irish street signs and a shared puppet government did not bring about normalisation, sadly Maghaberry is proof of that one.

Nuala, Perhaps it was not my place to make a comm...

2011-11-28T19:26:39.033Z

Nuala,

Perhaps it was not my place to make a comment about the tone of the discussion, but, by the same token, I'm not sure if calling Larry a tosser and suggesting that he is a drunken free-loader actually adds anything to a debate on republican prisoners' rights.

I don't find it hypocritical of independent human rights activists to demand decent treatment for prisoners, but it is hypocritical of armed republicans to demand rights that they would not accord to their enemies.

To be sure, British security forces behaved appallingly at times during the conflict, but that does not give republicans the right to do likewise.

Moreover, you complain about normalisation, but isn't that what most Irish people want? Armed campaigns are deeply unpopular and totally ineffective, so, yes, I do wonder why armed resistance continues.

Larry, Thanks for the offer but me and the telly ...

2011-11-28T19:24:38.870Z

Larry,

Thanks for the offer but me and the telly fell out ages ago but an aul bowl a stew I wouldn’t turn my nose up at.

Alfie, I assumed you were talking about combatant...

2011-11-28T19:20:41.020Z

Alfie,

I assumed you were talking about combatants and summary execution.
I pondered on the question would the PRM have taken British prisoners.
We shall never know I assume if they had the facilities I would like to believe they would have.

Nuala, There is no slanging match I believe when ...

2011-11-28T18:58:21.352Z

Nuala,

There is no slanging match I believe when words get a bit heated we tend to lose focus on the issue and concentrate on the subjective which is understandable.
I also believe that fear of the thought police and the new regime that has reinforced British rule has been more than effective in silencing people (in more ways than one) displaying support for the dissident prisoners comes with the label of war mongers and anti-peace.

Objecting to State violence is unacceptable to the PRM as they actively assist and promote the occupation forces to hunt down and dismantle any dissident activity regardless if it is peaceful or militant.

I believe PSF have an open agenda against their former comrades in arms as they view the dissidents not as a threat to peace in Northern Ireland but as a threat to their dominance in all things republican.

I cannot see any reason for the party that gained its political legs from the prison struggle and now use the term peace conveniently to distance the party from the violence that brought them the respectability and position cannot or will not use their position to expedite and insure a peaceful resolution to the prison issue.

Alfie Fionnuala sometimes reads like Catherin Lync...

2011-11-28T14:35:11.025Z

Alfie
Fionnuala sometimes reads like Catherin Lynch single lady...but she boxes and moves more like Rinty Monaghan. All in the best possible taste.

Alfie, Who is engaged in the slanging match? A fra...

2011-11-27T22:57:03.062Z

Alfie,
Who is engaged in the slanging match? A frank exchange maybe but hardly a slanging match.
You say you support the rights of prisoners to be treated decently but at the same time you find it hypocritical.
Prisoners of war are just that irrespective of the alleged political offence.
There were plenty of RUC/PSNI and British soldiers who murdered, tortured and mutilated innocent civilians and they did not even see the inside of a court let alone a prison.
There has been a massive campaign on going here since 1976 which has been underpinned by the policy of normalisation and criminalisation.
I seriously cannot believe the amount of people who have bought into this.
And then you wonder why armed resistance continues.

Tain Bo, My gut instinct is to sympathise with ar...

2011-11-27T21:25:30.144Z

Tain Bo,

My gut instinct is to sympathise with armed republicanism and to oppose the British presence in the North. However, given that the vast majority of the people on this island are more opposed to armed republican campaigns than to the British presence itself, not to mention the fact that such campaigns are very unlikely to succeed even with popular support, I cannot in good conscience support them. That does not mean I am under any illusions about the British record. The facts of the matter are that the RUC beat civil rights marchers off the streets and turned a blind eye to loyalists burning nationalists out of their homes. Indeed, there are allegations that some RUC/B Specials were themselves involved in the pogroms as well. Then when the British Army did become involved, regiments such as the Paras ran a reign of terror in the areas they patrolled, regularly assaulting and sometimes killing civilians. As Liam O'Ruairc points out, a majority of those killed by state forces were unarmed civilians. Then there was collusion with loyalist paramilitaries and torture of republican prisoners. So pardon me if I retch every time I read the Sindo brigade portraying the British security forces as doe-eyed pacifists and the IRA as sectarian baby-killers.

Tain Bo. BBC2 11pm The Plantations of Ulster docum...

2011-11-27T18:59:16.824Z

Tain Bo.
BBC2 11pm The Plantations of Ulster documentary. You can watch it in my house with surround sound and a feed of stew. All courtessy of FF and the IMF. Studies going well.

Fionnuala
play nice now...meow!