Comments on The Pensive Quill: Wasted Youth

The right moment to leave the provos was in 1986 w...

2011-09-02T22:21:43.213+01:00

The right moment to leave the provos was in 1986 when they entered Leinster House and went down the path of constitutional politics.

Saint?MaryHedgehog, Larry, I'm not walking aw...

2011-08-29T15:44:45.908+01:00

Saint?MaryHedgehog, Larry,

I'm not walking away from the blog altogether. This blog is a valuable asset. One of the very few places I know where one kind find serious and intelligent discussion about the state of the republican movement across a broad spectrum of opinion.

It is just that having stated my case on this subject I don't really see the need to repeat myself.

Regards,

Rory

Rory u don't walk away Just stand your ground ...

2011-08-25T10:41:56.136+01:00

Rory u don't walk away Just stand your ground as you have. dont agree with all of what you state but this is uncensored blog (a rarity non censorship these days)

The word traitor is aptly used in what you wrote here and i agree with it all.
'They are traitors. They betrayed Bobby Sands and the blanketmen, they betrayed the heros of the armed struggle of the 70s, 80s and 90s and the dead generations behind them.'
Some may say it be too emotive and living in the past to state that but it is the truth. To those who want to shape a better future - well the future is always built on the past so the past is always living with us in the present... hence it stands what you wrote. Stands like a terrible monument reminding all and sundry the cost and for what... The great thing about being old is you really dont give a flying f..k anymore about taking care with what you state to appease others/not rock the boat. Well the boat is sinking and when the boat is sinking it dont matter who be in it there has to be cohesiveness... I think though the boat has sunk to unprecedented depths and apathy has won.

The Provisional IRA: From Insurrection to Parliame...

2011-08-24T11:55:01.705+01:00

The Provisional IRA: From Insurrection to Parliament

OH...what's the title of Tommy's book?

2011-08-24T11:43:38.331+01:00

OH...what's the title of Tommy's book?

A.M. 'Have you read the Tommy McKearney book?...

2011-08-24T11:42:46.878+01:00

A.M.

'Have you read the Tommy McKearney book? He makes a similar argument. It is a very good book. Traditional republicanism is a standalone phenomenon. It ebbs and flows in response to the mood generated by the grievances. What sustains it is its own culture rather than what takes place around it to which it often seems impervious'.

Think republicanism/the left is in a very lonely place just now.

Rory

you don't have an enemy here. Just trying to bellows the debate a tad.

Larry, ‘Emmet said himself, the people were not a...

2011-08-24T07:33:54.134+01:00

Larry,

‘Emmet said himself, the people were not agitating for freedom and a republic, they were agitating for a resolution of their grievances’

Have you read the Tommy McKearney book? He makes a similar argument. It is a very good book. Traditional republicanism is a standalone phenomenon. It ebbs and flows in response to the mood generated by the grievances. What sustains it is its own culture rather than what takes place around it to which it often seems impervious.

The alternative to SF was always something Left. But SF never fitted the bill. Even today they don’t. For certain the party leadership will shaft socialism every bit as quickly as they shafted republicanism. If you look at the North they already have.

Larry, Anthony, I am going to walk away from this...

2011-08-24T03:27:29.679+01:00

Larry, Anthony,

I am going to walk away from this one.

I think the term is letting go with love.

The fact remains that the IRSP is still here, organised on a 32 county basis.

We are stll here, still relevant and we are getting stronger.

What other republicans and republican groups do and think is their own business.

Rory

Talking of graffiti and 'place' being appr...

2011-08-23T19:42:10.953+01:00

Talking of graffiti and 'place' being appropriate'

'The Attempted Murder of Irish Republicanism That Was Left For Dead by Some Hairy c**t and His Mate- Now in a Vegetative State Who the Doctors Say Might Just Pull Through'

GET THAT ON A WALL AT STORMONT.

AM 'The death of Irish republicanism' Th...

2011-08-23T15:24:48.996+01:00

AM

'The death of Irish republicanism'

Think I prefer the title...

'The Attempted Murder of Irish Republicanism That Was Left For Dead by Some Hairy c**t and His Mate- Now in a Vegetative State Who the Doctors Say Might Just Pull Through'

Defiantly give that a read.

Ruairi Just trying to stimulate and feel-out the ...

2011-08-23T13:49:42.349+01:00

Ruairi

Just trying to stimulate and feel-out the debate. A weakened, fraction of a provo re-run isn't much use to anyone. Are any lessons ever learned? Regardless of those involved not being criminals, what else is relevant?

A.M.

Only threw in the O'Leary article as a stimulus, in 'todays' world. You gave a political response, no one else did. Is that indicative of republicanism's dilema?

Is it the case that violence was necessary in 1798, and it is therefore necessary today, is that the rationale?

Emmet said himself, the people were not agitating for freedom and a republic, they were agitating for a resolution of their grievances; land, and the discriminatory and exclusion practices of the Ascendancy and London administrations. The Brits failure do deal with it effectively and early intensified the anger. The Brits seem to have learned something in relation to that. Even if they are still messing in other countries business.

Dissidents are seen today as hell bent on trouble-making. Up to them to alter the perception, they are not too good at that or their 'war' so far.

Tain Bo

'You post here perpetuating the subject(s) regarding Irish republicanism so why make a statement that you participate in?'

Debate, interest are my answer. My observation is that like monarchy, republicanism is outdated in Ireland. In the physical force tradition of our history. Not relevant. DEAD AS HECHTAR. Just my own prediction, as I don't see any one or any group salvaging it. Nor do I see a population craving it, SF is close enough for the majority, it meets their safe, careful modern needs.

There is also a serious lack of grievances for a modern day Emmet to feed off. Attempts to manufacture them, unimaginatively or otherwise, isn't cutting it.
In my own, personal opinion. Happy to be corrected.

Ruairi Joseph, there were enough old ones who ins...

2011-08-23T08:03:37.999+01:00

Ruairi Joseph,

there were enough old ones who insisted it could be won as well and who would get angry if it was suggested otherwise. But there were people to be found among the older lot who did believe it could not be won whereas all the younger element coming in seemed to think it was a foregone conclusion. That was how I saw the spread at the time

Larry I think you're missing my point. To be ...

2011-08-23T05:39:11.690+01:00

Larry

I think you're missing my point. To be fair, I haven't mentioned 1798, Tone, Connolly or 1916, that was your hypothesis.

I think what may move seemingly compassionate human beings, to resort to political violence, can't simply be demonised and brushed aside, as you attempt to do, or dismissed as anything other than what has went before. This is my point. As out of touch as political violence may or may not be in today's context, nevertheless the fact that it is indeed political, is a reality I am able to accept.

If it is true what AM points out, that the only Republicans it would seem, who didn't realise that the war could not be won, were those young people engaged in it, why are those still engaged in armed actions, just a few years later, any less deicated in your eyes.

You make many logical points most obvious, but a backward glance over human history if I dare, without again being expelled from 2011, would suggest that logic is not always foremost in the minds of our species, with regards to principles or the inevitability of resulting political conflict.

Ruairi, It used to seem strange to listen to peop...

2011-08-22T20:53:02.920+01:00

Ruairi,

It used to seem strange to listen to people just into jail explain how the war would be won. I recall leaving the prison in 1992 and listening to them still arguing that there would be no ceasefire when it seemed obvious that there would be. Yet, it is the view they claimed to hold. Out in early 1993 talking to young volunteers they seemed convinced that the war would be won. I found it hard to take in. Even when they were backing the peace process they were claiming it would lead to a Brit withdrawal otherwise the IRA would go back to war. Strange, I know.

Williams was in the IRA and involved in that operation not long after the launch of the S Campaign which the IRA leadership certainly thought was a serious effort to get the Brits to withdraw. Williams’ own comment ‘The road for freedom is paved with suffering, hardships and torture, carry on my gallant and brave comrades until that certain day’ suggest he believed in more than being in the IRA for the sake of resisting. The shooting of the cop in 1942 was an event that overtook them. But in general I am not aware of anything that would lead me to believe that he did not think the IRA was going to fail in its efforts to put the Brits out and bring about that certain day.

Larry,

O’Leary is not behind the door but is he right about anything. Other than the inefficient use of resources does he say anything agreeable? The greed driven society he opts for, disguised as efficiency, will simply widen the gap. If we privatise the health service and use insurance, how long do you think it will be before the likes of him kick up about the government paying the insurance for the poor? He is into union bashing. Work in a place without a union and watch what get driven down and up, wages and profit in that order.

Larry “The book The GFA The Death of Irish Republi...

2011-08-22T20:30:03.770+01:00

Larry
“The book The GFA The Death of Irish Republicanism, was very aptly titled. Why perpetuate failure? Maybe the Irish people are as free as they require.”

The book title is subjective and deliberate and incorrect. This era of Irish republicanism is far from dead it has mutated and changed direction which is not uncommon.

You post here perpetuating the subject(s) regarding Irish republicanism so why make a statement that you participate in?

Ruairi 'Getting modern, getting real and gett...

2011-08-22T13:31:24.438+01:00

Ruairi

'Getting modern, getting real and getting a relevant programe is what's required'. I'm not sure what you mean by this, but it does sound familiar.'

Leaving history in the books for a while/change. Will a united Ireland change peoples quality of life? In a modern British isles, European and global context will it make a positive or negative difference? Do you know? Is that question relevant or is the united Ireland the only consideration? Or are we fighting battles that our predecessors lost long long ago?

I don't go to battle re-enactments, but there's an ex Irish Army guy at University who participates in them all over Europe and Ireland. Each to his own. They have their place for enthusiasts. I lived through the troubles, i don't need a re-enactment. He was in the south the entire troubles though only 15 miles away from Derry, he's more intrigued by the siege of Magdaburg than the battle of the Bogside.

I don't think many wish to return to De Valera's 1930's poverty riddled 'celtic wonderland'. For me, this is 2011. What's done is done and to be honest, talk of Tone Pearse and Connolly and 1798 and 1916 is ok and i'm proud of my history. But in relation to the here and now and the Irish population it's all one big yawn.
zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

It's not the solution. Is the fact what I'm saying sounds familiar but you don't know what I mean possibly part of the problem?

Maybe it's our refusal to face reality? Or an inability to accept it?

The book The GFA The Death of Irish Republicanism, was very aptly titled. Why perpetuate failure? Maybe the Irish people are as free as they require.

Larry 'There have been many changes over the ...

2011-08-22T05:26:11.439+01:00

Larry

'There have been many changes over the decades and centuries other than a line on the map of Ireland'

Of course this is the case, the point being made, is what I believe to be the modivation behind young peoples decisions today, to continue with armed struggle. To dismiss them as 'a few misguided wnabes who were born too late trying to get their 15 minutes of fame' simply isn't good enough. Yes a lot has changed, things continully change, other things never do.

'Getting modern, getting real and getting a relevant programe is what's required'. I'm not sure what you mean by this, but it does sound familiar.

Ruairi J

Rory, ‘They may have tarnished republican sociali...

2011-08-21T18:55:16.955+01:00

Rory,

‘They may have tarnished republican socialism at the time.’

I don’t think the party ever recovered from it. That the party steeped in the ethos of Connolly is so marginalised in today’s economic climate - when growing numbers of people must seriously be thinking that capitalism is incapable of solving the problem and that an alternative to it is needed – is in part a result of that fractious feuding. I know today’s leadership has made huge strides in eradicating the feud mentality but I think it has come with a price: the projection of the party as a serious socialist alternative.

‘Our aim is a 32 county socialist republic, plain and simple.’

But without strategic structure it is a flag blowing in the wind.

‘I admit the remark about rallying under the banner of the starry plough was a bit over the top but I was a bit emotional at the time.’

It happens.

‘Socialism is not a religion, it is an economic and political
philosophy, based on the principal that all people are equal and
entitled to an equal share of the wealth of the nation.’

But that is said almost religiously. How to convince people is the problem.

I am familiar with your quote from Connolly but it does not alter the fact that North and South we have a right wing neo liberal agenda that seems to think punishing the poorest is the cure for economic woes. The only opposition worth talking about seems to be in the South.

Larry, I know there has been some discussion abou...

2011-08-21T16:57:12.624+01:00

Larry,

I know there has been some discussion about the motives behind the protests in the jails. I don’t know whether this is the result of factionalism with one group blaming another. But I do know from experience that the screws if left unchecked will brutalise prisoners and violate their rights. It is what screws do. There may well be no alternative to imprisonment but society must always ask itself when it builds prisons how prisoners can be protected from the violence of prison staff. During the blanket protest assaults were a daily occurrence. I believe I am not overstating the case to say there were thousands of assaults by screws against prisoners during the period. How many screws were ever charged?

‘As for pedestals...some of us used to call those engaged in 'rangs' on the H-Block wings "plastic people", but only between ourselves,dangerous to openly question.’

And they abandoned everything they ever said or held to, reinforcing their plasticity. In our wings it was ‘Marxism’ whereas on the mixed wings it was religion, all of it to be abandoned with gusto once the adherents got a new god to worship. A way to maintain control and out the day in.

Put the 17, 18 + 1900s back in the history book. [...

2011-08-21T15:45:13.146+01:00

Put the 17, 18 + 1900s back in the history book. [ for a moment ] If you want some topical debate look no further than Michael O'Leary's comments in todays press. Like or loath him, he's not behind the door on issues that are topical and relevant.

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/oleary-ill-quit-ireland-if-they-raise-income-tax-2853865.htmlyou

Rory 'I admit the remark about rallying under...

2011-08-21T15:19:59.036+01:00

Rory

'I admit the remark about rallying under the banner of the starry plough was a bit over the top but I was a bit emotional at the time'.

No crime in empathy, it shows 'humanoid' charachteristics and helps rule up the possible presence of sociopathic tendencies.

Tho when I read it I cringed. Thought you might have been half lit from the previous night or something.

Ballot+armalite has run it's course. Socialism too some argue. Capitalism is a chronic mess, but people prefer the waves of boom and bust to one size fits all and our lumpen proletariate are very well off. Possibly why there's no rioting or looting here?

Ruairi There have been many changes over the deca...

2011-08-21T15:12:21.890+01:00

Ruairi

There have been many changes over the decades and centuries other than a line on the map of Ireland.

It's not the Gaelic elite who are zipping off to Spain. Working class people have property there these days.

Grievances and conditions are unrecogniseable from the time of Tone and Emmet and even the 1916 rebellion.

Some argue the reason the 1950's campaign failed was because the welfare state had 'kicked in' and northern Catholics were better off than their Southern counterparts.

If we're going to fall back on centuries old excuses and stratagies and slogans, are we any different than orangeism?

Is it a case that if every citizen was given a million pounds, the removal of the border would still be an over-riding issue?

It doesn't inspire. The hungerstrikers starved for principles, but any I knew are in Stormont now. Nuf said.

Getting modern, getting real and getting a relevant programe is what's required. The only thing people see in socialist and republican rhetoric is a few paddy's with guns desperately looking an excuse. How do you address that? By harping on about past defeats and gripes?

AM I'm really not convinced that many young p...

2011-08-21T07:39:27.768+01:00

AM

I'm really not convinced that many young people joined the Provisional's campaign, after it had been fought for 20 long years (with British casualties steadily declining) who could really have believed that the British would be removed by such a campaign. So why did they join?

Consider the example of Tom Williams. When the IRA of that time paid out the RUC, could Williams have thought for a minute, that this endeavour in which he was involved, would help 'put the Brits out'

Human nature does not change.

Larry

Seems to me, people are more likely unwilling, rather than unable to understand, that what motivates young people today to engage in armed action, for right or wrong, is exactly the thing that has motivated for generations, regardless of how it's dressed up.

Ruairi Joseph

Anthony, The fractiousness, fueding and militaris...

2011-08-20T23:41:45.150+01:00

Anthony,

The fractiousness, fueding and militarism are all in the past. They may have tarnished republican socialism at the time but I think it is fair to say that the IRSP was constantly on the back foot from day one due to attacks from other republican groups. This certainly contributed in a big way to all three of these problems.

Our aim is a 32 county socialist republic, plain and simple.

I do not as I said in my first comment expect everyone to agree with us and would expect a range of parties to exist in that republic.

I admit the remark about rallying under the banner of the starry plough was a bit over the top but I was a bit emotional at the time. Most republican groups use that flag anyway, it is not exclusive to us. But it is, and always has been the flag of Republican Socialism.

Socialism is not a religion, it is an economic and political philosophy, based on the principal that all people are equal and entitled to an equal share of the wealth of the nation.

I will finish with a quote from James Connolly that I think was proven true when the Free State was established.

"If you remove the English army tomorrow and hoist the green flag over Dublin Castle, unless you set about the organisation of the Socialist Republic your efforts would be in vain. England would still rule you. She would rule you through her capitalists, through her landlords, through her financiers, through the whole array of commercial and individualist institutions she has planted in this country and watered with the tears of our mothers and the blood of our martyrs."

Rory

Mick, One of the reasons the traitor term gets th...

2011-08-20T19:35:17.462+01:00

Mick,

One of the reasons the traitor term gets thrown around is because it is part of republican tradition to label as traitors those who settle for treaties with the British that do nothing to end British involvement in the country. This is what made McGuinness sound so absurd when he called republicans traitors. It had all the appearance of the puma calling the swan black. I am sure many good people signed up to the Treaty forces in the 1920s but they all got labelled traitor. Look at the republican song ‘take it down from the mast Irish traitors.’ In the case of SF, they used the term against the SDLP and Sticks so for their republican critics today the gander can sup its own sauce.

It seems a very harsh term and I see little point in using it. It contributes nothing to debate but if that is how people feel about it then they can put it out and stand over it if they are able to.

‘I just do not believe the vanguard party is a viable vehicle today.’

I think it has helped destroy socialism.

Rory,

‘Other groups claim to be socialist, claim to be republican, yet none have our dialectic, our history, our tradition.’

But the fractiousness within the RSM, the constant feuding, the militarism all denuded the movement of a radical face. Republican socialism was tarnished by it.

‘I have to believe that sooner or later all republicans will rally under the banner of the starry plough and drive those Brits out of Ireland once and for all.’
But why do you have to believe it? It is not a religion. You say this, somebody else says CIRA is the way forward, everybody claiming their own group or sect has the true answer.

It would be very hard to argue that there is anything republican left within the Provos. The Brits got the outcome they had favoured since the collapse of Stormont. But that does not mean that the rivals to the Provos provide any republican answers regardless of their republican credentials.