Comments on The Pensive Quill: Rights Watch Report on Marian Price

Sean Bres I intended to only return to give you f...

2013-04-19T20:48:00.545+01:00

Sean Bres
I intended to only return to give you feedback on the proposed accusation meeting for want of a better title.
But I feel this thread is going to keep going and going so not to divert from what I said I will feed back on the out come.

Marty How very noble of you! I don't think.

2013-04-19T20:35:25.335+01:00

Marty
How very noble of you! I don't think.

Sean Bres. You have done your best to be the voice...

2013-04-19T16:48:46.605+01:00

Sean Bres.
You have done your best to be the voice of reason here and it is very decent of you!
When I asked on a post last night was it best to point out the unsavoury or stay quiet I was being genuine?
The majority of us who work on the campaign for Marian are tight knit and focused. People who know me know this isn't my thing but sometimes you have to take a step down, but none of this is remotely reflective of Marian's campaign.
We have remained consistent so far and will continue to do so.
I will only return to this thread to feed back on how things progress or regress. Which ever!

I dont know what your question is Nuala but if it ...

2013-04-19T16:26:51.780+01:00

I dont know what your question is Nuala but if it is to do with your last post regarding that night at queens I,ve already answered that twice but like the orginal post you may not have read them either,as for the war I,ll take a Gerry on that.

Marty, Answer it then?

2013-04-19T16:00:39.071+01:00

Marty,
Answer it then?

That reminds me of Martybroy Mc Guinness where wer...

2013-04-19T15:51:50.365+01:00

That reminds me of Martybroy Mc Guinness where were during the war rant.!

As a reader of this thread, someone not involved i...

2013-04-19T15:51:15.191+01:00

As a reader of this thread, someone not involved in the campaign beyond supporting it and knowing none of you's personally I wouldn't say anyone has made an eejit of themselves - to be fair to Nuala it seems there's more to the situation than meets the eye in a lot of what's being said and it looks like Marty you've been caught in the cross-fire to an extent. What I would say Nuala is Marty hasn't suggested at all you were engaging in pettiness or trying to undermine or derail the conversation but has simply tried to defend his position that habeas corpus may be an avenue worth at least considering regardless of what the feeling was five months ago given the clear lack of progress in the period since. I hope you's argue like this all the time and as such this spat won't affect you's going forward once you's make amends cause it sounds like you's are good friends and, plainly from the discussions I've been involved in with ye's, very similar politically. It would be a shame for that friendship to suffer from this argument where confusion seems to play as big a part as any actual differences in opinion.

As for whatever's going on between Nuala and Pauline as a neutral observer it seems more likely there are wires crossed somewhere - seemingly in relation to goings on outside of this particular thread whether that be personality clashes or back-stabbing internal to the campaign or whatever and not necessarily involving the contributors on here. Unfortunately it's being played out here to the bitter end for all the world to see when it could easily have been put to the side given the conversation had seemingly moved on this morning back towards the discussion on habeas corpus. That's the only sensible way to resolve this now, put it to the side and sort it out face-to-face next time you's meet where hopefully it can be put behind ye's and forgot about. Sounds to me like everyone has good intentions here but other things have slipped into the conversation which are causing conflict regardless of who's responsible

It is not my intention to police this row. Big boy...

2013-04-19T15:48:25.226+01:00

It is not my intention to police this row. Big boys and big girls rules. But it seems it has become a bad tempered spat at the end of which I am none the wiser. Perhaps if people take a step back and make the approach again it will allow the issue to settle down a bit. Can't say I find a lot wrong with the decision for some of the parties to talk about the matter. It seems to me it can only be for the good.

Nuala Thanks Will make contact early next week t...

2013-04-19T15:47:01.382+01:00

Nuala

Thanks

Will make contact early next week to make the necessary arangements.

Pauline

Pauline , You know where you can contact me, my pa...

2013-04-19T15:40:16.132+01:00

Pauline ,
You know where you can contact me, my partner and the other people who are aware of this. So yes make the contact.

Marty, You have changed your tune but then what is...

2013-04-19T15:37:46.864+01:00

Marty,
You have changed your tune but then what is it different day different friend?
I was annoyed by the fact you could not stand up for yourself in a public debate but then decided to proceed yet again here. I suppose away and wise up would have been a better response. Wonder what they used you for during the war?
The difference between me and you and the people you indulge with I don't have to prove myself to anyone.

Nuala I have just discussed the content of this t...

2013-04-19T14:24:15.590+01:00

Nuala

I have just discussed the content of this thread with my husband at great length. We are both in agreement that given the serious nature of the accusations made and your reluctance to substantiate that we may need to take you up on your offer to make contact. Would you and if you choose the 'we' be prepared to meet up so that you can substantiate the allegations you continue to make on this public forum? Pauline

Nuala in the early 70,s was there a shortage of bi...

2013-04-19T13:39:10.756+01:00

Nuala in the early 70,s was there a shortage of bin lids round your way and were you used as a substitute it seems to me you may have remained one. your comments re that my post has annoyed you,well you must be easily annoyed,your comment about "me talking a great fight and staying mute" on the night of the queens meeting is a lie,I attended that meeting in no other guise than someone concerned with Marians plight as I,ve already stated the explanation from Peter Corrigan imo was accepted,however with the passage of time Five months and the recent release of this British rights watch report by Christopher Stanley and his recommendation that habeas corpus be tried as a legal device has again thrown that idea up as a possibility, I thought it was worthy of debate, you on the other hand have engaged in nothing angry accusations,which in my case are lies and I repeat lies, I find Marians plight like all the other pows situation far to serious to engage in silliness,I think by all your posts on this thread the readers can make up their own minds who the eejit really is.

Apologies my last post didn't go up in full. ...

2013-04-19T13:16:00.016+01:00

Apologies my last post didn't go up in full.

Nuala

Your latest accusation "pseudoynms were being used to convey personal spiteful behaviour and deviousness" please elaborate because if I’m not mistaken you are suggesting someone on this thread is responsible. Who when and where?

You continue to bring the make-up of the campaign in to question no one else has mentioned it in anyway. Last night you metaphorically opened a laundry basket and scattered it all over this forum. I dismissed the comments as again I don't give credibility or credence to groundless accusations and as I’ve already stated this isn't the forum to spout off about internal campaign issues past or present. What I do expect though is for the accuser to afford me a shred of evidence or to at least explain their reasoning.

I stood in Derry and said it ,at the GPO and said it, in front of a large march in Belfast and said it and I sat in Coalisland last year and said it. The point I’m making is I don't go behind the door to say it and when necessary I put in print and stand over it.

Again are you suggesting that someone on this thread including myself would ask questions under another guise? Nuala you continue cast aspersions over good people and myself, at this point I feel your behaviour to be nothing short of sinister. I am confident that your aim maybe to impress onlookers however I suspect your actions will serves mostly to suppress support for the campaign.

In the majority of your posts you mention “we” I have no problem debating with more than one but could it be that the 'we' are merely the makers of internet hand grenades leaving you to throw them and then sink in the aftermath with no support? If the “we” you mention support these accusations and your airing of laundry then why haven't they publicly stated so?

Once upon a time I was unwittingly in the position you're in now. At the request of others I proceeded to rectify things publicly, things that were considered unhelpful. I not only bore brunt of those beyond correction but I then later discovered that the same people sending me to do this work were in fact people who stood up for no-one and stood over nothing. I'm not suggesting these people were malicious they just failed to remember that support is a two way street.

I mean this in all sincerity, could it be that you are being used?

Anthony exactly a cara .we must not lose sight of ...

2013-04-19T13:06:10.929+01:00

Anthony exactly a cara .we must not lose sight of the fact that Marian remains ,interned ,held by secretive evidence which initself is an insult to the principles of democracy,if only it was a matter of ransom then the dues would have been gathered and paid long ago.we have petitioned,marched,gathered and some have prayed all to no avail, legal minds suggest a course of action others disagree,who is right,who knows a cara,but the difference between a successful person and a failure is not one has better abilities but the courage that one has to bet on ones ideas,to take a calculated risk-and to act...Andre Malaraux

Marty, all options need to be explored. Marian...

2013-04-19T12:01:09.242+01:00

Marty,

all options need to be explored. Marian's solicitor has a view on it which Nuala thinks is the argument that has been most impressive to date. We should only be swayed by the best argument. At the same time that view has been questioned and others, some with a legal background, think a habeus corpus is the way to go. I simply don't know. But as Sean Bres suggests Marian is not out yet and all options to get her out have to be considered. Not every new idea is a good idea but as the maxim goes, do what we have always done and we get what we have always got.

Totally agree Anthony if habeas corpus as a legal ...

2013-04-19T11:40:27.715+01:00

Totally agree Anthony if habeas corpus as a legal device was a hindrance rather than a help it should be dumped,but while it remains an option and as I gather it so to speak,Marians case cannot proceed to the European courts until all legal avenues have been explored,including habeas corpus, it seems to me if people like Br watches Christopher Stanley and P Drinnan think its an option then it seems to me only logical to explore such options sin é

Marty, 'What followed' 'such distracti...

2013-04-19T11:06:26.729+01:00

Marty,
'What followed' 'such distractions' I sincerely hope that is in no way directed at me! If it is then you are making yourself look and sound ridiculous.
You know I would never engage in pettiness, especially when I have no time and even less interest in those who were writings under their protective and malicious pseudoynms.
If you are saying I did stoop to derailing a thread then that's a sizeable turnaround to what you have written about me on other pages in this blog! So which version do we go with?
I have heard this habeas corpus stuff being bandied about for as far back as I can remember.
Personally I would not even have ventured to tackle Marian's solicitor than night in Queens I would not have had the faintest notion.
As campaigners we went on the night to hear the best way forward and the legal aspect which we heard was so wrong challenged. To reiterate it never happened im my opinion Marian's solicitor put across by far the stronger case. Which is fair dues no big deal. As Mackers said two legal minds having a difference of opinion.
Where your post annoyed me and it did, was, you and all the others who talked such a great fight stayed mute.
Then, when I pointed that out and the odds start to stack the cavalry are sent for! Thankfully in this case not a load of the usual manufactured back up but back up all the same.
Again, you know perfectly well I do not engage myself in silliness so why are you?

Nuala Your latest accusation "pseudoynms we...

2013-04-19T10:50:43.100+01:00

Nuala

Your latest accusation "pseudoynms were being used to convey personal spiteful behaviour and deviousness" please elaborate because if i'm not mistaken you are suggesting someone in this thread is responsible. Who when and where.

You continue to bring the makeup of the camapign ito question no one else has mentioned it in anyway. Last nigt you metaphorically opened a laundry basket and scattered it all over this forum. I dismissed the comments as again I don't give credibilty or credence to baseles accusations.

Agian are you now suggesting on top of your many accusations that I am embroiled in this further

That seems to me to be the issue here Anthony. If ...

2013-04-19T10:08:56.573+01:00

That seems to me to be the issue here Anthony. If Marian or her team were to apply for a writ of habeas corpus then what becomes the other legal processes being followed should it fail? Would failure of a habeas corpus application result in total failure for the entire legal campaign? Perhaps this is why her solicitors are reluctant to pursue this option other than as a last resort. As itsjustmacker said earlier the likelihood is that MI5 could intervene surreptitiously, as was the case in the proposed Finucane inquiry, and scupper the entire process - especially if they knew this would prove destructive for the case in its totality. So if what Nuala's saying is that this should be very carefully considered as the consequences for failure could make the situation worse then that's a very valid point. Of course no-one on here would overlook that but maybe it is nearing the point were last resorts are required which is why habeas corpus should at least be on the table for discussion.

But it would be terrible to gamble everything and come up just short and to end up with nothing.

The Brits have near-perfected their legal system to deal with eventualities such as the imprisonment of Marian Price. What's certain is that even if some legal loop-hole can be found to secure Marian's release they will change whatever law needs changing to make sure the next unfortunate person to find themselves in this situation cannot avail of the same device. This is how the British have always worked; legalise the illegal. Marian's imprisonment is illegal, by the time it takes to prove it - if it's ever proved - the damage will have been done. God help that poor woman and good luck to all of you who are part of the campaign team

Marty, if a habeus corpus application were to sec...

2013-04-19T08:20:07.186+01:00

Marty,

if a habeus corpus application were to secure her release there would be every reason to go for it. It was one of the legal devices frequently used against the military junta in Argentina when people were being disappeared.

If on the other hand it makes it more difficult to secure her release than it would be a dubious legal strategy.

What I glean from this discussion is that there seems to be a difference of opinion between lawyers on the usefulness of such an application. But a difference of opinion is healthy and there is no reason for anyone to be bound by a lawyer's view on the matter. It is only legal advice, honestly offered, not a judicial decree. The lawyers themselves will tell you that.

Clearly there is room for a diversity of views on the matter and it is important that the question be raised. I think the Rights Watch report is a positive development and thanks to Pauline for sending us the link.

Itsjustmackers a cara exactly the recommendation f...

2013-04-19T07:40:41.248+01:00

Itsjustmackers a cara exactly the recommendation from Christopher Stanley of British Rights Watch,the author of the original post here,who has recommended just that line of action,I merely flagged up this point, it has been tossed around for a while now with people like Padrágin Drinnan and others suggesting that this habeas corpus device was worth a try in the courts,what followed was nothing whatsoever to do with this Br report or my agreement with the suggestion,such distractions may indeed stifle the messenger and even the debate but as you rightly say the message remains and "nothing to be lost,all to be gained"thanks again to Pauline for posting this report unlike others I thought it was relevant to Marian,s situation and worth READING!

Sean I couldn't make the event in Coalisland s...

2013-04-19T01:03:25.218+01:00

Sean I couldn't make the event in Coalisland so that wasn't me. I can assure you there will be no fall out. This is merely an exchange of views and a keenness to establish a few facts surrounding some of the comments made. I personally don't believe internal issues should be broadcast on a public forum and i'm not aware of any personal issue as this is certainly not personal on my part.

Aine There was no attempt to derail the thread in anyway. Yes I agree the recommendation of filing for a writ of habeas corpus is valid but on this thread when valid points had been raised it kept going back to the fact that it had been discussed at an earlier stage despite the new recommendation. I maybe didn't make myself clear but my comment wasn't made to derail or stymie debate it was an attempt to put it back on track. I posted the report therefore to purposely derail the thread would make no sense.
The comment that followed led me to question the accusations made. As the accusations were made on this forum I felt it best to keep it on the forum as there was no other communication in respect of these comments.
You also mention how “it's not very constructive for those of us who are public faces in campaigns to engage in what could be seen to be pettiness” I refer to your comment “Debate is always healthy.”
As my knowledge on the subject is limited do you know anything about Habeas Corpus?

SeanBres, There are no internal disputes amongst t...

2013-04-19T00:31:55.983+01:00

SeanBres,
There are no internal disputes amongst those currently running the campaign for Marian.
What had unfolded on this thread actually began quite a while ago and on a different thread. I and others picked up on the fact that pseudoynms were being used to convey personal spiteful behaviour and deviousness and these windups were being passed off as legitimate posts. It was nipped but sadly continues to fester but the campaign remains intact.

Its imperative that whoever is next visiting Maria...

2013-04-19T00:13:06.268+01:00

Its imperative that whoever is next visiting Marian , That she be made aware that she, as the prisoner , "although Interned illegally" , has the right to apply for "Habeas corpus" herself, she must consult her solicitor and inform him that she wants to apply for it.

Who knows what the outcome would be, we can all but hope and pray it would bring her release.

Nothing to be lost, plenty to be gained.