Comments on The Pensive Quill: Rendezvous in Rome

Rendezvous in Rome John, ‘It is an infallible mar...

2012-06-13T17:37:33.381+01:00

Rendezvous in Rome
John,

‘It is an infallible mark of the diabolically possessed anti-Catholic that they will always attack the Blessed Virgin, the Blessed Sacrament and the Papacy.’

That sounds diabolically possessed to me.

I think SMH a very intelligent and capable woman who won’t defer to religious opinion. She just won't accept her lowly place as ordained by the men of god. Perhaps it is that which annoys you.

AM, 'I don’t believe SMH is into Catholic bash...

2012-06-07T21:24:21.010+01:00

AM,
'I don’t believe SMH is into Catholic bashing in the way that you would be into gay bashing.'

You think? I quote SMH?;
"I feel at times like i could smash a thousand statues of the Virgin Mary with one hand lolol"

It is an infallible mark of the diabolically possessed anti-Catholic that they will always attack the Blessed Virgin, the Blessed Sacrament and the Papacy.

Three things that SMH? Cannot contain herself over.

If her latest rants are not Catholic bashing then there is no such thing.

John, it is very much a question science can answ...

2012-05-30T21:38:25.494+01:00

John,

it is very much a question science can answer. The notion of needing a time machine is hardly a serious proposition. There are so many ways of determining the age of something and understanding geological history without Dr Who. There is no serious Catholic theologian I know of who in the light of evidence available today entertains the notion of a 'young earth.' Only the crazed creationists do that. However, rejecting the young earth view does not rule out the existence of god. Many theologians see in evolution even more evidence of the complexity and creativity of god. Biblical literalists just download ridicule.

'It is interesting that belief in angels in near universal. Where something is so universally attested, I would not so easily dismiss it.'

And they all thought the earth was flat at one time.

I will believe in angels, fairies and whatever else if I find evidence for it. The only evidence I can see remotely for Satan and his angels is the Vatican. But I know it is wrong to mistake evil men for supernatural phenomena.

John AM: 'Some dead are more equal than other...

2012-05-30T21:35:06.210+01:00

John

AM: 'Some dead are more equal than others then. '

JM: 'Yes.'

Which means you were not being critical of Larry for not respecting the dead, just the dead you want respected. Sort of makes it different don't you think?

'Rather than for the school yard the question of certainty is a foundational question on which the whole edifice of human knowledge rests.'

But you can't be certain god isn't playing a trick on you.

Religion has no certainties just a totalitarian need to proclaim certainties which it does not want questioned.

''Universal scepticism in theoretically absurd and practically impossible.'

Nothing there to be disagreed with. The problem is still to define what are certainties. Science does the best job but must always hold open the possibility of being wrong by allowing the challenge of new evidence. Once science represses new evidence it just becomes one more belief system rooted in mere bias. This is what makes the 'teach the controversy' stance of ID in the US so skewed. ID is religion not science and has no basis for being taught in a science class. Were ID science and the Darwin school was repressing it on those grounds I would back its claim to be taught regardless of what the Darwinists says.

'I am glad that he was not absolutely certain of his atheism.'

I am too. It is what defines him from the totalitarian and opens up the possibility to change in light of new evidence. As he said on the existence of god 'not enough evidence Lord.'! When I see the evidence I too shall change my mind. Up to now there has been none. Not even as much as a one legged person going to Lourdes and coming back with two.

John, 'You seem to be assuming that everyone ...

2012-05-24T10:40:01.987+01:00

John,

'You seem to be assuming that everyone must either be a hedonist or a puritan. Hedonism and Puritanism are both distortions.'

You confuse matters. Puritans are hedonists who derive perverse pleasure from denying pleasure to others who derive it from much less perverse means.

AM, ‘Humans have devised ways (ingenuity again) of...

2012-05-22T12:37:43.213+01:00

AM,
‘Humans have devised ways (ingenuity again) of getting great pleasure from it which no doubt annoys the puritans but few will care about that.’

You seem to be assuming that everyone must either be a hedonist or a puritan. Hedonism and Puritanism are both distortions.

Alfie,
"I am willing to 'bury the hatchet'!"

‘In the back of Larry's head, I bet!’

Perish the thought!

‘In 1050, St. Peter Damian saw it necessary to devote an entire book to condemning the vices of the clergy - including sexual abuse of minors and the actions taken by church superiors to hide the crimes.’

And it is a masterful work that correctly identifies the problem and advocates the severest penalties. His analysis is exactly right and his remedy also. Unfortunately, nobody wants to hear his message today. They would sooner allow abuse to flourish rather than take on the homosexual perpetrators.

AM, ‘Interestingly, while I don't have time to...

2012-05-21T17:02:44.541+01:00

AM,
‘Interestingly, while I don't have time to dig up the stats, I think it was over half the US population believed the world was created 6000 years ago.’

I personally plump for the Incarnation taking place five-thousand one-hundred and ninety-nine years from the creation of the world. That, however is only the traditional date. On this point I can’t be certain, so I would regard it as a probable opinion.

It is not a question that can be answered by experimental science, as even if you got into a time machine and landed back in the Garden of Eden, how would you know? If the world had just been created an instant before the empiricist would see the rivers and mountains, and say that they took hundreds of thousands of years to form.

I totally reject the notion that America is six inches from Ireland, together with the even more fanciful notion of global warming.

It is interesting that belief in angels in near universal. Where something is so universally attested, I would not so easily dismiss it.

John, you brought a smile to my face letting me k...

2012-05-21T16:08:34.709+01:00

John,

you brought a smile to my face letting me know my six year old has more cop on than so many! Believing in fairies/angels! Did they make use of anonymity for these surveys?

It is funny if it was not for the fact that is demonstrates how gullible people can be. I used to say that a people easily led is a people that will easily commit atrocity. I guess it is one of the reasons I value dissent and open democracies and dislike secret societies.

Interestingly, while I don't have time to dig up the stats, I think it was over half the US population believed the world was created 6000 years ago. You would begin to worry about such levels of ignorance. I think it was estimated that the evidence for that was equivalent to the evidence for America being six inches from Ireland. I guess with all the evidence for global warming and no evidence for angels, it is no surprise that people swallow such rubbish.

AM ‘The devil and his angels. If my six year old s...

2012-05-21T14:00:57.118+01:00

AM
‘The devil and his angels. If my six year old said that ...!’

Here are some statistics from Wikipedia that suggest your six your old is in a small minority, Anthony.
‘… according to four different polls conducted in 2009, a greater percentage of Americans believe in angels (55%) than those who believe in global warming (36%).’
‘According to the Gallup Youth Survey, in a Teen Belief in the Supernatural poll in 1994, 76% of 508 teenagers (aged 13–17) believe in angels, a greater percentage than those who believe in astrology, ESP, ghosts, witchcraft, clairvoyance, Bigfoot, and vampires. In 1978, 64% of American young people believed in angels; in 1984, 69% of teenagers believed in angels; and by 1994, that number grew to 76%, while belief in other supernatural concepts, such as the Loch Ness monster and ESP, have declined. In 1992, 80% of 502 surveyed teenage girls believe in angels, and 81% of Catholic teens and 82% of regular church attendees harbored beliefs in angels.According to another set of Gallup polls, designated towards all Americans, in 1994, 72% of Americans said they believed in angels, while in 2004, 78% of the surveyed Americans indicated belief in angels, with the percentage of Americans that did not believe in angels dropping from 15% to 10%, and the percentage of Americans that were "not sure" dropping from 13% to 11%.’
‘In Canada, a 2008 survey of over 1000 Canadians found 67 percent believe in angels’

Alfie, As always a thoughtful post. It is no sur...

2012-05-21T12:54:55.958+01:00

Alfie,

As always a thoughtful post.

It is no surprise that Tom Doyle was ostracised. We need only look at men like Hans Kung who were faced with many obstacles because they found some of the Church’s teaching ridiculous. If something is ridiculous then priests and anyone else should be free to say so.

‘how many priests were sacked in the 80s for sexually abusing minors?

More were hidden than sacked. We know that.

‘I've said it before and I'll say it again: Ah for fuck's sake, John!!!’

I have had that feeling. The devil and his angels. If my six year old said that ...!

AM, ‘Some dead are more equal than others then. ‘ ...

2012-05-21T11:57:42.803+01:00

AM,
‘Some dead are more equal than others then. ‘

Yes.

“ ‘Why is it sophistry to point out the inconsistency that demolishes your entire arguments on everything?’”

‘Why are you still arguing with me then?’

Are you absolutely certain that I am?

‘It is as destructive of my argument as the street atheist is destructive of Frank Sheed’s by asking him the same sort of question. Only works in the school yard not in serious discussion.’

Rather than for the school yard the question of certainty is a foundational question on which the whole edifice of human knowledge rests.

As the epistemological thesis states it;
Universal scepticism in theoretically absurd and practically impossible.

‘I like Bertrand Russell when he said ‘Not to be absolutely certain is, I think, one of the essential things in rationality.’’

I am glad that he was not absolutely certain of his atheism.

As I recall I said 'Kerr booom!!, or something...

2012-05-21T10:28:56.551+01:00

As I recall I said 'Kerr booom!!, or something similar.

Which to my mind was slagging him off.

‘As Ronan Kerr fronted an enemy organization I would not put that on a level with a girl whose only crime was that Larry doesn't like the GAA.‘

Some dead are more equal than others then. It is only some dead you require Larry to respect and not them all.

During the blanket the GAA was a hated organisation.

‘Why is it sophistry to point out the inconsistency that demolishes your entire arguments on everything?’

Why are you still arguing with me then?

It is as destructive of my argument as the street atheist is destructive of Frank Sheed’s by asking him the same sort of question. Only works in the school yard not in serious discussion.

'One thing humans can be certain of is just how uncertain they actually are.'

‘there are also occasions that we can be absolutely certain.’

While that absolute certainty is challenged by another absolute certainty that it is wrong. I like Bertrand Russell when he said ‘Not to be absolutely certain is, I think, one of the essential things in rationality.’

Is she really any more bigoted than the average 'Ulster Protestant'?

Yes, much more so. She is as bigoted as some non average ‘Irish Catholics.’

I know quite a few Protestants I regard as average and they don’t froth at the mouth about gays while riding teenagers young enough to be their grandchildren. It is this old cherry picking Christianity at play again. Don’t do as I do, do as I say.

The football team in question is forcing the girl on the other team to defer to their judgement. It is domination not respect.

‘I let the golf club make up its own rules.’

With the proviso that nobody outside the club is subject to them. The discriminated against girl was not a member of that club but another who made its own rules and allowed her to play. The golf club can’t actually go about picking the players for the other golf club against whom it is competing.

'How many women play for your English soccer team? If none, why not?'

Asked in perfect English too! None play. They don’t do so because historically men have made it their game. It will change. But no one is standing saying Bill Shankly told them in a vision that women could never play.

I would love to see a woman play for Liverpool. In fact I would love to see 11 women play for Liverpool. They would do better than the current 11 men. Imagine some crusty old Catholics telling Marian Price she could not play soccer because they don’t allow it out of deference to her.

John, My mother and my sisters are definitely not...

2012-05-21T00:54:34.489+01:00

John,

My mother and my sisters are definitely not weaker than I am. In fact, life experience has shown that they are stronger.

I have come to this discussion late in the day and I had not read Anthony's reference to the ultra-orthodox Catholic school's baseball team that would not play against another school's team simply because of the presence of a girl on the latter team. In any event, if the girl in question was good enough to be on the team and compete with boys, then what is the problem?

'It did not say that the weaker sex should not...

2012-05-20T22:07:13.015+01:00

'It did not say that the weaker sex should not engage in sport, but rather that they should not be competing against men'.

Personally i think they should drive top of the range motors and earn good money, pay a big mortgage every month and let me sit in the house scratchin me arse... now that would be equality.

ANY TAKERS....'ladies'?

Alfie, 'There is gender separation in most sp...

2012-05-20T21:01:11.149+01:00

Alfie,

'There is gender separation in most sports because, in general, women cannot physically compete with men. But we don't prevent women from playing sports.'

Am I missing something, or is this not precisely the position of the school in question?

It did not say that the weaker sex should not engage in sport, but rather that they should not be competing against men.

John, "How many women play for your Engli...

2012-05-20T20:37:04.224+01:00
John,

"How many women play for your English soccer team? If none, why not?"

There is gender separation in most sports because, in general, women cannot physically compete with men. But we don't prevent women from playing sports.

So what is the Catholic Church's excuse? That all the apostles were male? But Jesus did not seek to persuade any Romans to become apostles, so should Italians be barred from becoming priests as well?

recon the devils angels are the RC church.

2012-05-20T20:02:18.123+01:00
recon the devils angels are the RC church.

John, "I am willing to 'bury the hatc...

2012-05-20T18:52:11.990+01:00
John,

"I am willing to 'bury the hatchet'!"

In the back of Larry's head, I bet!

Seriously though, Ricard Sipe may have made a foolish comment to the media a few years ago or perhaps he was misquoted. Either way, I think his work must be examined on it own merits rather than on the basis of an idle remark to ABC News. The book that I mentioned has been widely praised; I think even conservative Catholic scholars like Leon Podles have endorsed its findings. Podles also notes on his blog that Tom Doyle was ostracised from the Church for speaking out about clerical sexual abuse in the 1980s. Perhaps that is why he was found guilty of the "doctrinal and disciplinary" breaches to which you refer. I mean, how many priests were sacked in the 80s for sexually abusing minors?

In 1050, St. Peter Damian saw it necessary to devote an entire book to condemning the vices of the clergy - including sexual abuse of minors and the actions taken by church superiors to hide the crimes. This and the other documentary evidence cited in Sex, Priests & Secret Codes suggests that clerical sexual abuse was far more than just a "trickle" before the mid-twentieth century.

"The factors which you are not accounting for are that Satan and his rebel angels have been plotting for thousands of years to destroy the Catholic Church and there are undoubtedly those who have joined with the purpose of furthering the destruction of the Catholic Church."

I've said it before and I'll say it again: Ah for fuck's sake, John!!!

‘Richard Sipe and Patrick Wall are runaway monks, ...

2012-05-20T18:37:29.094+01:00
‘Richard Sipe and Patrick Wall are runaway monks, who broke their vows and eloped with women’

What a terrible thing to do. Let us cast them out and no longer believe them for that.

‘Satan and his rebel angels have been plotting for thousands of years to destroy the Catholic
Church.’

You know we are not going to take this seriously?

‘Once someone has crossed the Rubicon, by engaging in gay sex, then they are in freefall insofar as Catholic morality goes.’
At least we can agree on that. Catholic morality – of no consequence to anyone other than those who want to be unthinking obedient Catholics. A small pool these days. The good Catholics are asking questions, rebelling and refusing to listen to nonsense from the Capo di tutti capi

‘if a cleric is prepared to break vows, and engage in homosexual practices, it is but another step to find younger victims.’

That is like saying if someone is prepared to ignore the church’s teaching on political violence then he is one step away from strangling women. Both statements in my view would be wrong.

AM, ‘You didn’t show respect to Ronan Kerr when y...

2012-05-20T14:04:33.612+01:00
AM,

‘You didn’t show respect to Ronan Kerr when you slagged him off.’

I have no memory of slagging him off.

‘If respect is your barometer I think your comment on Ronan Kerr was much worse than what you accuse Larry of.’

Was it? As I recall I said ‘Kerr booom!!, or something similar.

‘And I am not complaining about your lack of respect. I don’t demand that you respect the dead. I just think your argument would be stronger were it not for the inconsistency.’

As Ronan Kerr fronted an enemy organization, I would not put that on a level with a girl whose only crime was that Larry doesn’t like the GAA . Also I did not post it on a memorial article about him. In fact, if I had sought out a page dedicated to the memory of Ronan Kerr and posted it there, I would agree, but I would not do that, out of respect for the dead, even enemy dead.

“ ‘Are you certain of that, or is it just your opinion?’”

‘Sophistry John. It is in the mould of that old one the atheist asks of the street preacher: ‘can god make a stone so heavy he can’t lift it?’ ‘

Why is it sophistry to point out the inconsistency that demolishes your entire arguments on everything? We can be certain about many things in life, and I see no benefit in claiming that we cannot.

‘One thing humans can be certain of is just how uncertain they actually are.’

I would add the word ‘sometimes’ to that. Of course there are times when we cannot be certain, but there are also occasions that we can be absolutely certain.

“‘Even Mrs Robinson can be right on some occasions.’”

‘Given her record of bigotry it is not something you would risk going to the bookies on.’

Is she really any more bigoted than the average ‘Ulster Protestant’?

“‘It is the disappearance of deference that creates problems.’”

‘No it isn’t. It is the institutionalisation of deference where women are forced to defer to the judgements of men.’

You are reversing what was quoted. They said women should be treated with deference, not that they should be deferring to men. It is like confusing ‘eating a chicken’ with ‘being eaten by a chicken’.

‘If you really respect them as distinct from wanting to keep them ‘in their place’ then argue for them to have full equality, to be priests in your Church,’

I let the golf club make up its own rules.

‘to make the decision whether they want to be on the football team or not.’

How many women play for your English soccer team? If none, why not?

John, ‘Do you not think ladies should be treated ...

2012-05-20T12:05:52.766+01:00
John,

‘Do you not think ladies should be treated with courtesy and respect?’

Yes. Both them and men regardless of their sexual orientation.

‘Would you not hold a door open for one, or give them your seat?’

I hold the door open for everyone. I would give my seat to the aged or infirm, a woman or man with a child. But I would not give it to a woman just because she is a woman. Nor would I give it to a gay just because they are a gay.

‘It is the disappearance of deference that creates problems.’

No it isn’t. It is the institutionalisation of deference where women are forced to defer to the judgements of men. If you really respect them as distinct from wanting to keep them ‘in their place’ then argue for them to have full equality, to be priests in your Church, to make the decision whether they want to be on the football team or not. Outside of that what you talk about is domination not deference.

‘Many would even blame it for the suicide rate of young males who have been robbed of a
reason to live.’

Who for example? There might be some men who have killed themselves because they lost the power to boss a woman about but I don’t think it is a significant factor in the phenomenon of suicide that we know of.

‘Do you think all sports should be mixed? Or is it just sports in Catholic schools?’

That seems a silly question. Why just Catholic schools? How many Catholic schools other than the one we linked to have sought to discriminate against women and girls in sports? I would mix sports where it is feasible and where women want to participate. But women should make the decision and not be told by men that they will be discriminated against.

I am sure there are men out there who hate the notion of women getting jobs or playing chess.

Rendezvous in Rome SMH, Make your posts as long ...

2012-05-20T10:51:19.061+01:00
Rendezvous in Rome

SMH,

Make your posts as long as you want. They are never dull, that’s for sure!
John,

You asked Larry: ‘Will you ever respect the dead?’

But there is no binding reason why we should. You didn’t show respect to Ronan Kerr when you slagged him off. If respect is your barometer I think your comment on Ronan Kerr was much worse than what you accuse Larry of.

And I am not complaining about your lack of respect. I don’t demand that you respect the dead. I just think your argument would be stronger were it not for the inconsistency.

'I do not have an opinion that 'gay marriage' is wrong, I know it is, with absolute certainty.'

I am reminded of Mencken here: ‘We must respect the other fellow's religion, but only in the sense and to the extent that we respect his theory that his wife is beautiful and his children smart.’

‘Are you certain of that, or is it just your opinion?’

Sophistry John. It is in the mould of that old one the atheist asks of the street preacher: ‘can god make a stone so heavy he can’t lift it?’

One thing humans can be certain of is just how uncertain they actually are.

‘Even Mrs Robinson can be right on some occasions.’

Given her record of bigotry it is not something you would risk going to the bookies on.

Televangelists are the comedy channels in this house.

Much sexual behaviour is the fruit of human experimentation. The human imagination takes people off in directions others can’t comprehend or don’t like. And if human experimentation was not needed god would have given us wings.

‘the finality of nature but rather helps it’ whatever it is or may be will be determined by human evolution rather than a designer.

‘Putting a reproductive organ into the anal passage though, is reducing humanity to below the level of animals.’

It is a sex organ as well as a reproductive organ. It is a practice straight people engage in too. It is not gay specific.
Humans have devised ways (ingenuity again) of getting great pleasure from it which no doubt annoys the puritans but few will care about that. If you want to stir your tea with it John, fine by me. Just keep it away from my cup!

‘the lowest thing that a human could do’

I thought last time round you told us that sticking nails in the communion wafer was the worst thing.Even lower than covering up the sex crimes of the Cardinal of Austria?

‘It is taking a fruitful action and making it sterile.’

You do see the pun in the fruitful action!

But so is the rhythm method.

john only when i'm at Ibrox for some strange r...

2012-05-18T21:35:41.998+01:00
john
only when i'm at Ibrox for some strange reason.

Larry, 'why are you only interested in as the...

2012-05-18T17:32:52.181+01:00
Larry,

'why are you only interested in as the 'bull' barman says in savage eye 'FUKN QUEERS' are ye related to one...or are ye one? haha!!'

Well Larry, I don't bring the subject up. Clerical abuse keeps being raised on here, as a weapon to attack the Church.

You cannot discuss clerical abuse without discussing homosexuality.

By the same logic, you must be a secret Catholic; maybe you are the Pope!

john why are you only interested in as the 'bu...

2012-05-18T17:04:17.136+01:00
john
why are you only interested in as the 'bull' barman says in savage eye 'FUKN QUEERS' are ye related to one...or are ye one? haha!!

Comments on The Pensive Quill: Rendezvous in Rome

Rendezvous in Rome John, ‘It is an infallible mar...

AM, 'I don’t believe SMH is into Catholic bash...

John, it is very much a question science can answ...

John AM: 'Some dead are more equal than other...

John, 'You seem to be assuming that everyone ...

AM, ‘Humans have devised ways (ingenuity again) of...

AM, ‘Interestingly, while I don't have time to...

John, you brought a smile to my face letting me k...

AM ‘The devil and his angels. If my six year old s...

Alfie, As always a thoughtful post. It is no sur...

AM, ‘Some dead are more equal than others then. ‘ ...

As I recall I said 'Kerr booom!!, or something...

John, My mother and my sisters are definitely not...

'It did not say that the weaker sex should not...

Alfie, 'There is gender separation in most sp...

John, "How many women play for your Engli...

recon the devils angels are the RC church.

John, "I am willing to 'bury the hatc...

‘Richard Sipe and Patrick Wall are runaway monks, ...

AM, ‘You didn’t show respect to Ronan Kerr when y...

John, ‘Do you not think ladies should be treated ...

Rendezvous in Rome SMH, Make your posts as long ...

john only when i'm at Ibrox for some strange r...

Larry, 'why are you only interested in as the...

john why are you only interested in as the 'bu...