Comments on The Pensive Quill: Common Criminals or Political Law-Breakers?

Mackers, they knew perfectly well what a persons f...

2010-09-12T20:08:33.684+01:00

Mackers, they knew perfectly well what a persons fate would be under those circumstances.

When you think of it logically it was pretty vile.

I just wonder where Alfie would think that type of conduct would fit with the rules of engagement?

Nuala, it once happened to me. Put in the back of ...

2010-09-09T21:17:15.961+01:00

Nuala, it once happened to me. Put in the back of a saracen and took to the Botanic Gardens and told to lie there while they drove off shouting 'fenian'. I was back in the district before they were. Now the Botanic was then in a more unionist area than loyalist and I was not too worried. But it did come at a time when they were throwing people out in the Shankill and elsewhere before shouting 'fenian' and driving off.

Alfie, I tend to treat the term ‘legitimate targ...

2010-09-05T14:58:10.037+01:00

Alfie,

I tend to treat the term ‘legitimate target’ as I would the term ‘nigger.’ I know when you use it you are not doing it in a value laden sense and that is fair enough.

‘How can an IRA volunteer insist on political status if captured when all he would give to a captured British soldier is a bullet in the head?’

Because his motives are political and steeped in a particular history against a state that has tried to criminalise every country that has resisted it. It does not mean that political killing is somehow more civilised, humane or ethically superior to non political killings. Can we really maintain that the killing of Patsy Gillespie was somehow more civilised, more humane, more ethical than say the Limerick killing of Shane Geoghegan? It had different motives is about as much as can be said.

‘On the other hand, I wonder if the legitimacy of one's cause allows one to use certain tactics that are morally off-limits to one's enemy?’

There is a major ethical dilemma here. If argued from a human rights perspective, then there is no justification for doing to your enemy what violated human rights. In war we may kill the enemy but not torture, rape or enslave them.

These issues are unsettling to many people and stay on the chest no matter how hard we try to remove them.

According to Sutton's Index of Deaths there we...

2010-09-04T16:47:16.479+01:00

According to Sutton's Index of Deaths there were 33 civilians killed for working for the British Army or RUC. Around four of them were Catholics. Seamus McEvoy 1985 (Building contractor), Patsy Gillespie 1990, Brendan McWilliams 1992(civilian working for army), Adrian McGovern 1993(Building Contractor).

The number of Catholics who worked in civilian roles for the security forces was always proportionally less than Protestants for a number of reasons.

Alfie, Unfortunately, there were times when civi...

2010-09-04T13:34:53.303+01:00

Alfie,

Unfortunately, there were times when civilians were targeted deliberately. There were other times when no regard whatsoever was given to civilian safety. Yet I think Nuala is right if we look at matters over the full run. For the most part the IRA did try to minimise civilian casualties.

The difference between Patsy Gillespie and the Teebane workers was the act of tying him to the bomb and forcing him to do the business of killing. I think that was the product of an inhumane and malevolent mind. As Camus said even in destruction there is a right way and a wrong way. But Teebane was by no means justifiable. They were not killed because they were Protestants. However, the question needs to be asked would a van load of Catholic workers carrying out a similar task have been attacked? I doubt it although one of the early contractors to be killed was a Catholic.

Nuala,

I think whether or not the Palestinian suicide bombers as they are termed are without ethics is determined by the people they target. There is no morality in targeting civilians. Targeting troops is a different matter. I suppose if it was in Ireland the difference would be akin to targeting a bus load of English tourists at Narrowwater rather than a lorry load of Paras.

Alfie, Yeah the brits were a pretty ruthless crew....

2010-09-02T18:53:08.525+01:00

Alfie, Yeah the brits were a pretty ruthless crew. My gran used to tell us, that half of them were released from prison and borstal to come here and I believe she was right.

We also had the UDR, the RUC and all the rest of the dung, who were being held up as peacekeepers and upholders of law and order.

Nuala, "We also faced pretty ruthless and ca...

2010-09-02T16:55:49.609+01:00

Nuala,

"We also faced pretty ruthless and can I add despicable enemies on two fronts."

I agree that the loyalists at all times waged a vicious campaign that seemed to target civilians primarily, but do you really think the British were any more ruthless than the IRA?

Alfie, we also faced pretty ruthless and can I add...

2010-09-02T14:52:02.665+01:00

Alfie, we also faced pretty ruthless and can I add despicable enemies on two fronts.

I was also like to add about Teebane, I did not agree with the killing of protestant workers as they probably believed they were assisting their own army.

Alfie, feel we are just going over the same old gr...

2010-09-02T14:06:35.490+01:00

Alfie, feel we are just going over the same old ground here.

As we already agreed there is a vast amount of difference between how the IRA conducted its guerrilla warfare campaign and how the IDF conduct their perceived war.

I would hazard a guess the Israeli army has the capability of stiking with accuracy. Therefore if they are indiscriminate it is intentional.

Patsy Gillispie should not have been strapped to a bomb and made to drive the device.
Don't know much about Teeban, but I would say if they were protestant workers they should not have been killed.

Nuala, "The army and police tended to statio...

2010-09-02T13:40:17.844+01:00

Nuala,

"The army and police tended to station themselves in conjested areas. Therefore, it would have been practially impossible to attack them without endangering civilians."

Palestinian militants are also based in congested areas. So would you say that it is acceptable for the IDF to blow up an apartment block if a militant lives there or stores weapons there?

"I thought what happened to Patsy Gillispie was totally and absolutely wrong!"

What's the difference between Patsy Gillespie and the construction workers killed in Teebane in 1992? Both worked for the British army, so surely if killing Patsy Gillespie was wrong, then killing those workers was wrong also.

Nuala, "Do you believe all the brits who dro...

2010-09-02T00:07:24.465+01:00

Nuala,

"Do you believe all the brits who dropped bombs over Germany were totally devoid of ethics or morals?
Do you think the Palestinian suicide bombers are without morals or ethics?
Do you honestly believe a war, especially a guerilla war can be fought without inflicting injuries on civilians."

I believe that combatants should not target civilians directly; that's why I cannot support Palestinian suicide bombers, though I may sympathise with their cause. Perhaps they have a moral/ethical code, but what they do is definitely immoral.

I also believe that combatants should not endanger civilian lives unless absolutely necessary; thus, I believe that some of the Allies' bombing during WW2 was indiscriminate and wrong. For the same reason, I think that republican bombing of commercial targets was wrong - I don't think it was absolutely necessary.

I am not naive enough to believe that guerrilla wars can be fought without killing civilians; I just think that the Provisionals were ruthless at times and that as a result, people suffered greatly.

Robert, the asymmetrical nature of guerrilla warfa...

2010-09-01T11:20:50.868+01:00

Robert, the asymmetrical nature of guerrilla warfare cannot apply to one operation and not to another.

Almost all military operations require a degree of planning, hours, days, weeks, months.
It does not take away from the fact they would have been underpinned by the same logic, strike and retreat quickly, (hit and run)

Many of those operations would have been dogged by logistic failures. Bombs are very precarious devices, very often IRA volunteers lost their lives transporting them.

La Mon was horrendous, however, the outcome was not calculated or deliberate.
The IRA almost always gave advance warnings, however, sometimes sadly, that was not enough to prevent loss of life.

Fionnuala, "Unlike the brits, IRA volunteers...

2010-09-01T00:45:33.934+01:00

Fionnuala,

"Unlike the brits, IRA volunteers operated on hit and run basis, which meant operations sometimes went wrong"

All the atrocities that have been brought to your attention were not hit and run incidents. They required weeks and months of planning. The assymetrical nature of the war has no relevance here. These are not instances where a shot aimed at a passing foot patrol misses and ricohets of a wall killing a passer by.

Alfie, I have just picked up on another point you ...

2010-08-31T21:45:30.952+01:00

Alfie, I have just picked up on another point you made about 'overpopulated areas'
The army and police tended to station themselves in conjested areas. Therefore, it would have been practially impossible to attack them without endangering civilians.

Also, speaking of carnage, Irish people and Republicans had plenty of carnage directed at them, which was seemingly alright, it only became a problem when we fought back.

Alfie, hindsight is the thing everyone craves, unf...

2010-08-31T21:15:35.508+01:00

Alfie, hindsight is the thing everyone craves, unfortunately you only get it after the event.

Yes, I would say the bombing campaign was justified. I think hitting british army bases and their economic infrastructures shook them up, Brighton certainly worried them.
Do you believe all the brits who dropped bombs over Germany were totally devoid of ethics or morals?
Do you think the Palestinian suicide bombers are without morals or ethics?
Do you honestly believe a war, especially a guerilla war can be fought without inflicting injuries on civilians.

I thought what happened to Patsy Gillispie was totally and absolutely wrong!

Most of the people I met within the Republican movement, had more ethics and principles than those I met outside the movement.

Nuala, I never said that the Provisionals attacke...

2010-08-31T19:49:36.973+01:00

Nuala,

I never said that the Provisionals attacked civilians directly, though they did class certain civilians as legitimate targets, such as the construction workers they killed in Teebane. But my point is that the tactic of planting bombs in heavily populated urban areas was bound to lead to tragedies like La Mon and Birmingham, yet it seems like PIRA volunteers and their leaders were willing to accept such carnage in the quest for a united Ireland. That is neither moral nor ethical.

In hindsight, would you say that the bombing campaign was justified? Would you say that Patsy Gillespie or the workers killed in Teebane were legitimate targets?

Alfie, effective planning does not always amount t...

2010-08-31T17:55:37.362+01:00

Alfie, effective planning does not always amount to an effective outcome.

However, there is absolutely no-way the IRA waged a war on innocent civilians. Why would they? Their war was essentially with the british and at times with loyalist murder squads.

The majority of IRA volunteers were honourable and credible people, very often, even their enemies had to acknowledge that.

Nuala, Yes, I'm referring to the Israeli Defe...

2010-08-31T17:24:36.877+01:00

Nuala,

Yes, I'm referring to the Israeli Defence Forces (IDF).

"To begin with, the Israeli Army is a regular army, therefore, you would expect that their logistics in relation to strikes would be a lot more accurate than those of a guerrilla army who can only strike when an opportunity presents itself."

You have a point: the IDF should be expected to be much more precise than a guerrilla army like the PIRA. And yet, the Provisionals choose to attack commercial targets like the La Mon restaurant and the pubs in Birmingham; this was unnecessary and was bound to cost civilian lives, which it most certainly did. The IDF takes the same kind of risks.

I didn't know Hughes or Sands, so I can't really say what kind of people they were. By all accounts, they were honourable men. But the organisation they were part of did kill over 600 civilians during the Troubles; that's about a third of the total number the PIRA killed. There were too many La Mons, too many Birminghams, too many Enniskillens to claim that the PIRA did its absolute best to avoid civilian deaths. It accepted a high level of 'collateral damage' just like the IDF does now.

Alfie, by IDA, I presume you are speaking about th...

2010-08-31T15:19:09.218+01:00

Alfie, by IDA, I presume you are speaking about the Israeli army?
Apologies, if I am wrong, however if that is who you mean you can hardly equate them with PIRA.

To begin with, the Israeli Army is a regular army, therefore, you would expect that their logistics in relation to strikes would be a lot more accurate than those of a guerrilla army who can only strike when an opportunity presents itself.

Unlike the brits, IRA volunteers operated on hit and run basis, which meant operations sometimes went wrong.

Most, IRA volunteers did adhere to a strict moral and ethical code, which probably explains why the IRA could produce people of the calibre of Brendan Hughes and Bobby Sands.

Fionnuala "I think during most of the war, ...

2010-08-31T12:16:02.239+01:00

Fionnuala

"I think during most of the war, republicans did their best to adhere to some sort of ethical and moral code."
Please explain as Ive no idea what this means, As well as I can remember they just made it up as they went along but if you can enlighten me please do ???

Fionnuala, "I think during most of the war, ...

2010-08-31T01:10:20.201+01:00

Fionnuala,

"I think during most of the war, republicans did their best to adhere to some sort of ethical and moral code"

Your thinking appears to omit decades of unethical and immoral behaviour that characterised the IRA code that you speak of. Bloody Friday, La Mon, Enniskillen, ad infinitum.

Nuala, "I think during most of the war, repu...

2010-08-30T22:38:33.987+01:00

Nuala,

"I think during most of the war, republicans did their best to adhere to some sort of ethical and moral code."

Did they really do their best though? And was the code strict enough? Republican bombing campaigns took unacceptable and unnecessary risks with civilian lives and to target civilians who worked for the British army, such as in Teebane, was reprehensible. Sometimes I think that the PIRA was as indiscriminate as the IDF.

Fionnuala- I am not sure if time has messed with m...

2010-08-30T20:07:30.069+01:00

Fionnuala- I am not sure if time has messed with my memory of other people's reactions or indeed my own but I clearly remember wondering what the soldier was doing on the bus then when the bus started driving down the road with him on it I realised he was left behind.

I felt sorry for the soldier because of his vulnerability. His body language and facial expression were clearly asking for help. I was at the back of the bus but I remember the bewilderment of the other passengers.

Simon, that would have been a sight to see especia...

2010-08-30T17:52:29.896+01:00

Simon, that would have been a sight to see especially in the 80s.
Wonder what the reaction was on the bus?

The Brits picked up a friend of ours a few weks after he was released from prison and threw him out in a loyalist area.
Thankfully, he managed to convince the owner of a local chemist that he had been attacked during a street squabble and needed protection and a taxi, the chemist supplied both.

Alfie,
I think during most of the war, republicans did their best to adhere to some sort of ethical and moral code.

Ballymurphy Republican, Fionnuala, Marty, Tain-Bo,...

2010-08-30T02:17:07.965+01:00

Ballymurphy Republican, Fionnuala, Marty, Tain-Bo, Interested: While I agree with you all trying to “enlighten” michaelhenry about the political facts of life in occupied Ireland past and present, I'm beginning to think he is a lost cause. He has been on the same rant for over a year about "dissidents” vs psf and by what he constantly says -- he doesn’t appear to have much of a clue about anything outside of what Sinn Fein feeds him. I honestly don’t know whether to feel sorry for him or be seriously frightened for Ireland’s future? I wonder how many more like michaelhenry are out there accepting the status-quo and believing everything is just wonderful since the signing of the Stormont Agreement and that one day soon Sinn Fein is going to march them all into Disneyworld? Michaelhenry has drunk the cool aid and he is trying to pass it around.