Comments on The Pensive Quill: ‘We need a forward thinking leadership - former IR...

Michael, Within the confines of your own convolut...

2011-11-17T18:34:44.428Z

Michael,

Within the confines of your own convoluted logic it would make no difference if they signed in Sanskrit or Hieroglyphics signing in Gaelic or in the Queens English was not my question.

You stated you have no need for official documents which in turn runs contradictory to your answer.

There is a major difference between trusting and agreeing. PSF agreed to the peace accord whereas the P.O.Ws trusted the leadership (I can’t say that is accurate as I was not there, then again the leadership where not confined within the H Blocks) therefore I can only rely on the documentation and accounts of those who were confined as a more reliable source rather than a political party who successfully ended the armed struggle which was no small feat yet could do little or nothing to negotiate an acceptable agreement to avert the inevitable yet completely unnecessary loss of those then young men’s lives who trusted the leadership even if they didn’t agree with them.

It seems a little suspicious that a political party could not resolve a prison issue yet could trade in its arsenal for a more respectable position and considering they had the power to accomplish that then surely there would be reason to question their failure to resolve the prison conflict.

I doubt they are keeping the Unionists at bay as they share the same castle and converse in the other “non-Irish” language under the watchful gaze of her Majesty the Queen and if Robinson is doing his job then fair play to him for making them earn their penny.

This issue has surfaced in some discussion today v...

2011-11-16T20:30:31.862Z

This issue has surfaced in some discussion today vis-a-vis republican prisoners in Maghaberry. Some have observed that the prisoners are using old tactics of prison struggle to crack a new nut. However, I think Mackers has raised some of the core benefits of having a republican wing that are also applicable today. I have never been convinced by the alternative argument even with its radical/revolutionary overtones. In the case of a relatively small number of prisoners - there are less than forty in Roe House - they would simply be swallowed up by the system.

Accept your points Mackers. I was merely throwing ...

2011-11-16T19:46:19.595Z

Accept your points Mackers. I was merely throwing this point out into the debate after reading and hearing about it.

Mick, in the battle with the authorities the pris...

2011-11-16T18:41:43.098Z

Mick,

in the battle with the authorities the prison management wanted integration as it considered it a more manageable system from its point of view. It would have weakened republican structures, might have exposed individual republicans to assassination attempts by loyalists. The situation outside might not have lent itself to a safe environment, minimised republican operational security and decreased the chances of escape. Our view at the time was that the Brits would spread all the prisoners out throughout the blocks but by a process of gerrymandering would have given a few wings a massive republican majority and allow the rest of the republicans to have minority status in the bulk of wings where loyalists were housed. We were not willing to let that happen.
Yes of course as political prisoners we could have organised whatever the circumstances but why invite difficulty? Integrated conditions were of no value to republican strategy on the ground. As it ended up, with segregation we created a safety zone which the screws did not control internally, only externally. No prisoners were beaten on our wings because the screws had no opportunity to do it. They could not spot search cells or bully prisoners. Moreover, it was from within the segregated wings that the big push for improved prison conditions would come. And these extended to prisons throughout the North.

AM It is an interesting point Sean has raised abo...

2011-11-16T17:51:55.715Z

AM

It is an interesting point Sean has raised about segregation, as in some ways it does highlight the elitism of Irish Republicanism. Having said that if the republican prisoners had accepted integration with ODCs it could have weakened their arguments over prisoners of war status etc, especially in the public mind.

Republican prisoners in England (not sure about in other countries) were not segregated and it would be interesting to hear their views on this, were there advantages, etc. Myself I feel any advantages would be outweighed by the disadvantages, especially those of solidarity and solidity.

Having said that political prisoners when housed alongside ODCs have historically always managed to organise themselves, although I would 'guess' informers were a greater problem than on the republican wings.

Alec, the hunger strike ended at the start of Oct...

2011-11-16T17:09:57.333Z

Alec,

the hunger strike ended at the start of October 81 and about a week later we had our own clothes. That got us out for some association and to the yard. The following spring we began the 'task force' policy of moving into the system in dribs and drabs to start the segregation battle. By November we had ended the protest completely apart from a few who held on until around the escape.

Sean,

the very same argument could just as easily have applied to the struggle for political status. Segregation was important for a number of policy reasons. I have never been persuaded by the argument that republicans going into integrated conditions would have won many amongst the ODCs over. In fact we took a number of them onto our wings in the jail where they did their time and never bothered much with the education end of things. I took the view that the Dark was idealistic on the matter even thoughg he was thinking outside the loop.

On the issue of segregation, It was interesting re...

2011-11-16T16:15:44.465Z

On the issue of segregation, It was interesting reading Brendan Hughes book when he basically came across as opposing segregation from the general ODCs on the basis that it was elitist and republican prisoners should be educating and politicising the wider prison population. Leftish prisoners in Germany and Spain also opposed segregation to on this basis.

does anyone have any thoughts on this issue?

Do you recall the exact date we ended the blanket ...

2011-11-16T15:56:12.692Z

Do you recall the exact date we ended the blanket protest and moved into the system?

Alec, I too think the clothes were the core deman...

2011-11-16T12:12:17.445Z

Alec,

I too think the clothes were the core demand. I think Denis O'Hearn takes a different view in his very good biography on Bobby but it was not my memory of it. At the end of the hunger strike we obviously never got the five demands otherwise why were we still on protest for a further year? Your point is right - once we got our clothes and out the doors the situation changed. That also meant that people who had no involvement in the blanket, they might not even have been in jail at the time and were arrested later, were part of the struggle for the demands that we did not get. We even had a discussion after the escape as to whether we should be demanding the right to work - due to the access it gave us. It was rejected because of the history of the hunger strikes. Do you recall that debate?

Tain BO- Im sure they write plenty of official do...

2011-11-15T22:15:08.805Z

Tain BO-

Im sure they write plenty of official documents both in Irish and non Irish- i trust them-

Keeping the unionists at normal up on the hill is not an easy task-
Peter Robinson is on another huff-
and its nothing to do with his wife

Michael, Considering your leaders sign plenty of ...

2011-11-15T19:06:13.586Z

Michael,

Considering your leaders sign plenty of official documents does that mean you don't agree with them?

Eddie, You raise a fair point the fact that PS...

2011-11-14T18:14:09.874Z

Eddie,

You raise a fair point the fact that PSF “don’t care” does not excuse their detractors from conducting critical inquiry. You ask, “How do we prevent the same happening again? “ Putting the PRM leadership under the microscope is necessary in beginning to understand the failed policy of “leaders for life.”

Boyne Rover politely asked Michael Henry for an explanation as to why the PRM restored power to Stormont I am confident if he asked the PRM leadership he would get no explanation. I would assume that republicans would have the right to be distrustful of a leadership who successfully bombed their way into Stormont and with great gusto they are more than content to reinforce the ramparts and defend the castle at the behest of our English landlords.

Boyne Rover- I don't need any offical documen...

2011-11-14T16:40:25.227Z

Boyne Rover-

I don't need any offical documents to know the truth / un-truth about anything-nothing can beat the truth

When Mo Mowlam visted the H-blocks a few years back did you not notice on T.V that the prisoners had their own clothes on [ no brit prison uniform ] and controled their own wings- the 5 demands and a lot more was won- so thatcher lost-get over it-

The protest now in another prison is to do with strip-searching which the prisoners rightly opposed, they won the right to have a scanner installed so there is no need for screws to strip-search- this deal whilst agreed has still to be implemented-

We can blame and castigate the leadership as much ...

2011-11-13T22:10:59.950Z

We can blame and castigate the leadership as much as we like but they wont care so long as they are still surrounded and enabled by those who acquiesced in the first place. And we all subscribed to the greatness of Martin and Gerry at some point. How do we prevent the same happening again?

Michael Henry I direct my question towards you as...

2011-11-13T10:33:18.860Z

Michael Henry
I direct my question towards you as you seem to have an insight into the granting of the so called 5 demands.
I have never believed that the British government ever granted these 5 demands this was a complete lie chanted by the Provo leadership then and now , no where can I find any written document to satisfy that they were granted , all I have heard or read was the prisoners didn’t die unnecessarily that the 5 demands were granted .
If they were granted and won how come in the year 2011 we still have republicans fighting for Political Status ????
Surely a lesson to be learned from the sorry mess of 1981 is if its not written down and signed it means nothing.
Maybe the current people incarcerated are not worthy of the 5 demands since the Provo’s restored power to Stormont as they see them as less than equal to them

michaelhenry, you are right when you say that seg...

2011-11-13T01:00:38.448Z

michaelhenry,

you are right when you say that segreation was not a specified demand, however, it was intrinic to the demand from free association. We were not protesting in order to freely associate with loyaliss or ODCs. Indeed, segration was won a lot easier than we thought at the time. The loyalists were terrified at the prospect of the Blanketmen entering the system hence they were ripe for the picking.

To say that we stalled on the work issue is a tad revisionist in my view. Yes, freedom of movement in the jail greatly assisted the planning and excution of the escape. However, before that there were many serious incidents in the workshops which could have led to their closure. For example, loyalists were beaten and scalded, plant and machinery were wrecked, and screws were attacked.

The HS destroyed the criminalisation policy, it did not secure the five demands.

Marty, you were missed!

2011-11-12T22:27:19.233Z

Marty,

you were missed!

Alec- Don't know why you are trying to save t...

2011-11-12T22:22:02.391Z

Alec-

Don't know why you are trying to save the Thatcher image-she betrayed her brits- and as for the
loyalists, segregation was not 1 of the 5 demands- but that was also
achieved-

After the hunger-strike the Provos
still needed the work issue in the blocks to escape- You know all the storys- once the Volunteers escaped the work issue ended- now you see it now you dont- a little bit of Provo magic-

Indeed Dixie powerfull and thought provoking ,and ...

2011-11-12T20:27:09.871Z

Indeed Dixie powerfull and thought provoking ,and isnt it wonderfull to see that those who meted out such horrendous treatment shall now be rewarded with around £120.000 payoffs and they are,nt even members of psf!!

michaelhenry, I think you are deliberately puttin...

2011-11-12T20:24:07.265Z

michaelhenry,

I think you are deliberately putting your own spin on what Dixie said. The five demands were not won through the HS. What was achieved was the right to wear our nown clothes which was the springboard for everything that followed. The system simply could not cope with a large disciplend body of men with cearly defined objectives.

The Task Force paved the way for the blanket men to enter the system by forcing the loyalist behind the doors and ultimately off the wings. This was followed by a intensive campaign to close the prison workshops; the last of our demands.

Dixie, the Thatcher government did not conceed t...

2011-11-12T17:45:35.464Z

Dixie,

the Thatcher government did not conceed the five demands as the direct result of the HS. If my memory servers me right the last demand to be conceeded was the work issue and that was as a direct conmsequence of the escape. After the HS republicans had to fight many aggressive battles in order to achieve segregation and an end to prison work. What we did have coming out of the HS was the basis for making all of the above possible i.e. our own clothes. Once we entered the system with a clear and determined attitude to achieve all of the demands for which our comrades died, we were unstoppable.

Enjoyed the piece.

Dixie- Every-one has their story and despite the ...

2011-11-12T15:17:51.829Z

Dixie-

Every-one has their story and despite the songs,yarns,tales you paint the truth about P.o.w life- it was never easy-

You also state the truth that the Hunger-strikers got the 5 demands-
do you think any paper would print your story if you had of said that thatcher betrayed the brits position and sold out to the men and women behind the wire- when the p.o.ws won the brits lost-

This article came about as a result of the fact th...

2011-11-11T22:24:08.058Z

This article came about as a result of the fact that former prisoners and others involved in the H-Block protests at the time and now involved with or supportive of PSF were having their remembrances carried almost very week during this year's anniversary of the Hunger Strikes.

Almost all give the party line that the deaths of the ten men led 'us' to where we are today.

Rory Mooney is a student journalist and this is his very first published article. I know we all wish him the very best in his career as he often tunes into the Pensive Quill.

I decided in doing the article to tell it as I believe it to be and for a while Rory thought they weren't going to carry it. He therefore asked me would Mackers carry it and I said I would ask him. However the Journal then phoned me asking for photos of me then and now as they were carrying it as a full page piece.

Could agree more with yr Mackers and Mick in your ...

2011-11-11T20:21:29.270Z

Could agree more with yr Mackers and Mick in your last post.
Its interesing how you rightly refer to Lenin. Too many modern day leninists and trots still sing from the same hymn sheet in terms of blaming the degeneration of the russian revolution expressed through the workers councils, rather than the vanguard 'democratic centralised' model itself. The reality is and truth is quite different. Stalin did not drop from the moon he just took it to its most logical conclusions which marx and bakunin warned against. It was lenin who established one party state from the central committee, crushed any opposition and criticism within the party and out, set up the cheka, subordinated the workers councils to the party, installed one man management, kronsdat etc- all before these external factors arose. The Maknovists in Ukraine (http://www.nestormakhno.info/)were quite different though. Carried out a social revolution from below while fighting the whites, foreign imperialism and later the reds.

Fionnuala, The question I tried to pose in my hac...

2011-11-11T19:08:30.638Z

Fionnuala,

The question I tried to pose in my hackneyed way was is there an inherent flaw in republican ideology which at critical junctions gives the leadership the space to act in the way you rightly condemn. You say no, I'm not so sure.

I'm not suggesting this flaw is unique to Irish Republicanism, the Leninists implemented it with disastrous consequence for the socialist cause and millions of people, whilst proclaiming their democratic centralism was the highest form of democracy.

The leaderships of both groups regarded themselves as the general staff of their cause. Like all military type hierarchy's they operated top down, need to know bases. (I am not talking about security issues here, but democratic accountability)

The main problems I see in this type of structure is at critical junctions when the leadership becomes out of step with the rank and file and begins to act solely in its own interest, Irish republicanism of this type and DC offers no viable means for members to express their differences and attempt to call their leadership to account. Not least because the leadership controls all the levers of organisational power.

Because this road is blocked off, what has historically happened periodically is people either walk away disillusioned, accept the inevitable and hunker down in the hope of better days, are brought on side by the leadership by fair means or foul, or leave and set up an alternative Organization from scratch and attempt the old one more heave, this time with clean hands.

All the best