Comments on The Pensive Quill: Engaging with Dissident Republicanism

Damian "On behalf of éirígí we salute the pe...

2010-11-21T18:00:33.088Z

Damian

"On behalf of éirígí we salute the people of Palestine and the
democratically elected government of Hamas. We stand shoulder to
shoulder with the people of the Basque Country, of Cuba, of Venezuela,
of Vietnam and others throughout the world defending democracy and
Socialism."

Not much to argue against there

"On behalf of éirígí we salute the people of ...

2010-11-15T20:04:46.582Z

"On behalf of éirígí we salute the people of Palestine and the democratically elected government of Hamas. We stand shoulder to shoulder with the people of the Basque Country, of Cuba, of Venezuela, of Vietnam and others throughout the world defending democracy and Socialism."

http://www.eirigi.org/latest/latest070410speech.html

Cracroi, people engage with opinions they find en...

2010-11-11T19:56:55.279Z

Cracroi,

people engage with opinions they find engaging. Nobody that I am aware of is considering his opinion above anybody else's. It is considered alongside rather than above other opinions. I think there were quite a few dissenting opinions on his article. I suppose if somebody makes the effort to put together such a lengthy piece it will attract a degree of interest. It does not make the content right but we will wait and see if he comes back on your comment about Vietnam.

Sorry, but who is Damian O'Loan and why should...

2010-11-11T17:27:08.287Z

Sorry, but who is Damian O'Loan and why should any consideration be given to his opinion above anyone else's? When he comes off with comments like this - "Eirígí supports Vietnamese communism, seemingly unaware of that nation’s joint military exercises with its avowed imperial enemy" - well, considering éirígí have never commented on Vietnam, it does seem like he's pulling quite a bit of it out of his arse.

Mark, You're not the first to comment on the ...

2010-09-12T09:20:58.442+01:00

Mark,

You're not the first to comment on the use of the GFA as the focus of what the groups dissent from. One one hand, it's significant because it's the point at which the Process, no matter the concerns that can and perhaps should be held about it, gained legitimacy through referanda. If certain groups were formed in the years before it, it was because they had rejected either the premisses or the development of those negotiations.

Until that point, they were dissenting from the SF leadership and opposing the British & Irish governments. Afterwards, I'm suggesting they have a singularly tricky challenge to reconcile the concepts of democracy, republicanism and complete rejection of institutions like Stormont.

But they do so with varying degrees of success and methods. I do hope that it was clear from my piece that I hold the place of dissidence to be democratically essential. Without preconceptions though, what I found was insufficiently developed answers to pressing questions for an alternative republicanism.

So when you say:

"The term ‘dissident’ for those that developed it is synonymous with irrational, illegitimate, anti-peace, violent and anti-democratic."

I do agree, but hope it's clear that I had intended to unwind somewhat the varying strands and consider the movements with fewer assumptions.

I don't think I'm best placed to do so, but most of the media completely ignores these aspects. Even recent articles like that by Eamonn McCann in the Observer weren't really open to the idea that the dissidents may not be wrong on every point. So I wanted to recognise what they do well, but in the event, I don't think they take political engagement seriously enough. Perhaps for the reasons best outlined by Anthony above when he spoke about absolutism.

This may explain what I would also agree with from your comment:

"They all share one common factor – working to undermine the British state in the north. That is what ‘dissident’ republicanism is – though it sounds more like just plain old republicanism to me."

Aside from my disagreement with the methods sometimes employed, I really don't think it's enough to have this as an ambition. Particularly when in such a minority position, it's essential to outline a more complete vision of what you stand for and plan to implement. For some, the 'right to bear arms' in the name of republicanism seems so self-evident that the whole project is defined and limited by it. For others, it still seems to be more criticism than constructive, engaged republicanism that is produced.

Thanks for your comment though, you'd probably be better placed than I to do this kind of article.

Damian, Thanks for this and apologies for coming ...

2010-09-11T20:53:43.172+01:00

Damian,

Thanks for this and apologies for coming to the conversation late. I’ll not address your piece in its entirety but make a comment on your initial premise:

“Firstly, what are these groups and individuals dissenting from? I will take it to be the GFA and/or a solely political approach to reunifying Ireland through the institutions created thereby.”

I think this falls into the trap of defining the groups you comment on in relation to their stance against pSF’s. It is a media/establishment construct to make certain political positions seem beyond the pale. The term ‘dissident’ for those that developed it is synonymous with irrational, illegitimate, anti-peace, violent and anti-democratic.

However, none of those who it is applied to would see themselves as ‘dissident’ – dissenters maybe, not dissident.

They all oppose the status-quo that will ensure the perpetuation of British control in the north of Ireland. Some support non-armed ways of opposing it, others think arms can play a role in opposition.

They all share one common factor – working to undermine the British state in the north. That is what ‘dissident’ republicanism is – though it sounds more like just plain old republicanism to me.

What it means for most in the media and establishment is simply republicans that haven’t bought into the pSF project and Peace Processing.

newry republican- have we had words before? polic...

2010-09-05T14:57:24.605+01:00

newry republican- have we had words
before?

police and SINN FEIN, stormont and
SINN FEIN, i am happy with both, others are not,
eirigi has two councillors, maybe more, who were voted in as SINN FEIN, 1 in dublin 1 in tyrone, both were still in SINN FEIN a year after the police vote and 11
years after the stormont accaptance
the one in tyrone has said that he is going to stand in next years local elections,
there is 1 x SINN FEIN m.l.a in eirigi from south derry, again maybe more, so much for the anti- stormont stance.

has more of the barracks come down
there will be more dissidents,
the brits have left us something to
play with, but there will be no civil war this time,
SINN FEIN did smash the crowns stormont, there is now a new IRELAND stormont.

Anthony, Good points each one. I concentrated on...

2010-09-05T11:53:35.879+01:00

Anthony,

Good points each one. I concentrated on the policies more than the 'republican mindset' for a couple of reasons. One is that I don't think you can ignore the Good Friday referendums in terms of legitimacy. The lack of a response to that, or even serious engagement with the question, from most dissident groups is symptomatic of exactly the kind of absolutism you mention.

Which is what runs across almost all of the areas I found to look at. The Marxism is absolutism applied to economics and the fervent nationalism the same applied to sovereignty. None of the positions having moved is indicative of the same.

And touching on what Fionnuala raised, the positions within Stormont really haven't evolved much either. Where SF has swung massively to the right, it seems to just deny the fact outright. The SDLP and SF don't offer a single policy between them that overtly contradicts the wishes of the Catholic Church.

The mention of Camus was to highlight just that. Perhaps I could have been clearer, but I meant to use him as an example of a warning over these kinds of absolutism - as developed in l'Homme révolté, hence the split with Sartre and the communists - having been proved more prescient, with the FLN a case in point. The joint axis of SF-DUP's response to parading equally indicates this tendency.

On the definition of republicanism being other than the traditional SDLP/current SF position, what I was pushing is more that there is only an undeveloped alternative. There is a lot further to go, I would have thought, in criticising Stormont on the grounds of competency rather than ideology, but to do so effectively assumes a defendable alternative. As long as that is found wanting the consequence of these groups' actions is unlikely to be productive even to their own ends.

I would say an undeveloped alternative is a bigger impediment to Irish unity than Stormont. I'm writing less in defense of the arrangements as in favour of a more considered alternative, given the focus of the article. An alternative, for example, that featured a left and right. Or real separation of Church & State in the South.

And, again related to Fionnuala's point, the size of political parties, which are tiny compared with the civil service and NIO, means even in Stormont the policies are usually initiated elsewhere allowing for a lazy or self-interested approach.

Tom,

On a pure security response, I was thinking of more extreme examples, such as Tasmania. Possible, but not really relevant to a NI context.

I'm not suggesting that paramilitarism will fizzle out, though I do think that it's use is likely to fall in the context of a more developed political strategy. Since the vast majority of new recruits are, as ever, young and in deprived areas, I would think that the high youth unemployment levels, sometimes equal to nationalist Derry in the late 60's, suggest quite the opposite is possible.

Newry Republican, people can change their positio...

2010-09-04T15:21:36.531+01:00

Newry Republican,

people can change their positions It would be a dire world if they could not. I am sure you are right tht it applies to RSF and 32CSM also.

One of the puzzling things is that some of the Eirigi people backed Stormont enthusiastically and then got a rude awakening over the policing question. It makes me wonder how flexible their position is. I don't see how Eirigi can grow outside of taking seats in these parliaments. If they are to become the voice of opposition then they will need to consider all forms and sites of opposition no matter how anathema it might seem to their tastes. How they find the the point where they can do this but are not incorporated into the institutions of the state would seem to be the strategic challenge ahead for Eirigi.

What is it in Stormont that Eirigi are opposed to? They don't stike me as the type that would be paralysed by republican tradition. Certainly those members of it who at one time did back Stormont participation would not claim republican tradition or principle as obstacles and they would be attuned to the nuances of politics and the need for flexibility.

AM, Yes its a shame he hasn't responded as i ...

2010-09-04T14:56:21.809+01:00

AM,

Yes its a shame he hasn't responded as i would have liked to hear where he got his info from about éirígí contesting next years election.

In regards to your point, yes that is true that some éirígí members were at one time supportive of PSF and their participation in Stormont. Indeed the same can be said for RSF, 32csm and various other groups.

But éirígí and their members are opposed to it

If he is hinting at individuals changing their stance then he would need to look closer to home as PSF once opposed Stormont and pledged to smash it. Now they support and participate in it.

pot,kettle, black me thinks

Newry Republican, Michaelhenry has not yet respo...

2010-09-04T10:30:54.341+01:00

Newry Republican,

Michaelhenry has not yet responded but I was interested in what point he might have made.

It may be that he shares the view of many other republicans that a few of those in Eirigi were stalwart defenders of the Stormont situation while still in SF while at the same time reinforcing prejudice against those critical of Stormont. Some Eirigi people were central to the suppression of republican dissent.

For people like me it is all water under the bridge but others may feel a greater explanation is required.

Damian, again thanks for giving this to TPQ. I hop...

2010-09-04T08:31:09.238+01:00

Damian, again thanks for giving this to TPQ. I hope the reading of it generates thought commensurate to what you put into writing it. Nothing short of a piece of equal length would do it justice so comments are limited dealing with a snap shot here or there rather than the piece in its totality. There are a couple of points I would make.

In general terms I think many dissidents would not recognise themselves in this piece. It works at levels of abstraction which does not address the ‘facts on the ground’ which act as a prism through which many of them would read off their actions.

It is an endorsement of the GFA and in this context raises the question: ‘Firstly, what are these groups and individuals dissenting from? I will take it to be the GFA and/or a solely political approach to reunifying Ireland through the institutions created thereby’

It is not dissension from unification through these institutions. There is a belief that these institutions are an impediment to unity, something which you touch on well toward the end of the piece.

‘Similarly, if one accepts one side of the border, one has to accept the other.’

In terms of taking seats there would be a republican view that the Dail or Leinster House is the only one of the three parliaments involved in Ireland (exclude the European) that has the support of the majority of the Irish people. It could of course be argued that the referendums of 1998 render such an argument redundant but Eirigi presumably do not see it that way. It allows them a tactical flexibility which you do not seem to consider in the comment ‘one has to accept the other.’

The inclusion of Camus in the discussion (the reference to the FLN apart) about Marxism seems strange given that he was not a Marxist nor, unlike Sartre who was - although of a different order from what we tend to associate with Marxism - held in high regard by the French Left.

Much of the piece informs us of what the dissidents are not without discussing what they are. I think in this regard not enough attention is paid to the be all end all ideology of physical force tradition. Therein lies absolutism and the foundation of a totalitarian instinct; the abandonment of reason, the celebration of irrationalism.

‘The GFA is, among other things, an act of bloodless revolution by Irish Republicans who just didn’t care what happened in the North, as long as they stopped killing each other. The affirmation that a woman from Dublin who cares only about her career has a vote whose value equals that of a Provisional volunteer and a resolute Orangeman. It is not the Death of Irish Republicanism; it is its vindication and renaissance. And its renaissance accepted the legitimacy of the unionist aspiration, of two states inextricably bound.’

This is where all shades of republicanism will take umbrage (not in any nasty sense) because they will see in it a reaffirmation of an SDLP perspective that long predated SF’s endorsement of the GFA. Anything which promotes partition will never be seen as republican renaissance but rather its dissolution. It is less a statement of how republicanism has ended up where it is but shifts republicanism away from those who waged the republican struggle from 1970 and places it in the camp of the SDLP.

Damian, I think what makes the so called 'diss...

2010-09-03T17:26:33.639+01:00

Damian, I think what makes the so called 'dissidents' interesting,is the fact, that they are a constant reminder that we are not floating about in the airy fairy utopia Sinn Fein would have us believe we are.

Sinn Fein has built an illusion on the back of a deal, the GFA, which was seemingly never more than a papering over the cracks exercise.
and I honestly believe that is why the military campaign continues.

The fact that many of these groups have undeveloped strategies, does not make them any the less viable in a future political arena.
Sinn Fein developed their strategies for years and then deviated from many of them at the first hurdle.
More importantly, many of those who vote for Sinn Fein, could not name a strategy or policy under intense torture.
A theory which we may be able to test on michaelhenry!

Few political strategies would hold up to acute academic scrutiny and I dare say a lot of the groups who have read your findings will take them on board and hopefully act on thme accordingly.

Daminian, many thanks for a thought provoking piec...

2010-09-03T14:35:45.597+01:00

Daminian, many thanks for a thought provoking piece.

I couldn’t help but think that your statement was a little erroneous.
“No conflict has been resolved by a security response alone..... This is manifestly false.”

Whilst one can identify security responses such as ‘Operation Motorman’ or ‘Operation Alljah’ in Iraq that have indeed played a significant role in reducing the extent of a conflict they have not alone resolved them. I would concede that security responses are necessary for resolving conflict but only in the limited sense that they provide stable conditions essential to allow, facilitate or oblige negotiations amongst belligerent groups and the authorities.

On the question of engaging with dissidents and getting them to forsake violence, I believe something would have to be done to address grievances. Needless to say this is beyond problematic as the sticking point is the Union.
Your concluding comment on ‘boundaries’ echoes the use of the British policy ‘Ulsterisation.’

Are you essentially arguing that if dissident groups and their violence are contained and left to mature their paramilitarism will eventually fizzle out?

Michaelhenry, you stated that "eirigi is goin...

2010-09-03T14:08:13.077+01:00

Michaelhenry, you stated that "eirigi is going to stand in next years local goverment elections in the 6 counties"

Your lack of knowledge is outstanding, éirígí have never said they will stand in next years elections, in fact they have never stated when exactly they will stand.

I think they'll contest elections when they are ready to do so

You also said that "eirigi is opposed to stormont, thats a good one, take a gander at its membership."

Yes its true they are opposed to Stormont and so are all their members, i fail to see the point you are making

Fionnuala, Tain Bo, Thanks very much again. I do...

2010-09-03T12:57:06.138+01:00

Fionnuala, Tain Bo,

Thanks very much again.

I do think it's interesting for everybody for there to be a dissident republican movement, in the sense that a single point of view is likely to miss out on things or do things wrong. The trouble was the impression I got was mainly of undeveloped ideas.

Damien A very insightful piece well worth reading...

2010-09-03T04:16:48.105+01:00

Damien
A very insightful piece well worth reading I agree with Fionnchú and hope to hear more.

Damian, thanks so much for this. Like yourself, I...

2010-09-02T15:43:51.600+01:00

Damian, thanks so much for this.

Like yourself, I would also like to understand what alternative republican factions have to say.

I think there is a deliberate policy of wind down in relation to the commemerations, I believe Sinn Fein will still wave their flags and read the odd roll of honour, however, it all seems very superficial now lacking any real
sincerity.

In relation to Blair, Mc Guinness and Adams I think the profiting was as mutual, as the admiration.
How could one tiny room hold all that charisma?

Once again Damian, thanks for an extremely thought provoking piece.

Fionnuala, Sorry it's not clear what views ar...

2010-09-02T15:22:35.834+01:00

Fionnuala,

Sorry it's not clear what views are mine and which are drawn from elsewhere. The section you mentioned on memorials was me stating what follows logically from the GFA. That's not to say it's what's to be expected.

The Agreements' only relevant provisions are to ensure expressions of cultural identity. So a dissident Easter 1916 memorial is in some sense protected by the GFA.

The big qualifier that I should add to the quote you included is "except that which survives the criticism we subject them to". I'm not suggesting any historical events would have to stop, just that a properly Republican narrative has to challenge its history in light of events, notably that the GFA is not what was called for by Pearse but it was by most Irish people. That means a lesson for democratic republicanism.

I'd think the average RSF supporter would have different reasons than I for finding Gerry Adams mark 1916 uncomfortable, but something needs to be agreed that encompasses a little self-criticism from the very distant past to more recent events. The status quo reading of things is too full of contradictions not to have fragmentation afterwards.

But no, apart from the Parades & Assemblies Bill, I don't see any threat to memorials arising from the Agreements.

As for Blair and SF, I'd have thought he found them a lot easier than Hamas in any case. The NI section, which is all I've read, definitely reads as though he felt they were on his side against the IRA. And he's profiting from their compliance as we speak so I'd guess it's all very civil.

Damian, appreciate your response, the problem I ha...

2010-09-02T13:37:05.435+01:00

Damian, appreciate your response, the problem I had was, I never quite knew when you were saying something or you were saying something on behalf of someone else.

Fioncchu and Anthony would have had no problem reading through the article, however,with all due respect both are academics.

Can I just ask something else, when you say, 'The GFA has some remarkable consequences. All of the 1916 commemorations and milltown salutes had to be considered as rememberance and nothing more'

Is this your opinion, or is there something in the actual agreement that specifies this?
I know there has been a deliberate policy of winding up these types of commemorations, I was just wondering where it came from.

Read in the paper this morning. Mr Blair was quite taken with Gerry and Marty! Rhetoric or reality?

Fionnuala, My issue on globalisation is that it i...

2010-09-01T19:50:51.716+01:00

Fionnuala,

My issue on globalisation is that it is raised as a bad thing per se, but made to sit with a Marxist economic doctrine. That's where the big state element mentioned by Fionnchù is relevant, because it's not Marxism in its entirety that has been adopted. All of the dissident groups are more nationalistic than anything else though.

The comparison between Marxism and Catholicism has been made by many others, there are still Catholic-Marxist philosophers publishing. What seems to connect almost all of the positions taken by the various groups is that everything has to be controlled, and that's perhaps the best connection with the two doctrines of Catholicism and Marxism. It's not very reflective of Ireland or anywhere.

The various socialist leaders are mentioned more by éirigi than any other group. RSF are probably the most introverted, but my point was essentially the difference between rhetoric and reality.

I do agree with what you said about globalisation being a double-edged sword, my criticism was there's not much engagement with what works and what could be improved and how. And again it sits uncomfortably with the closed nationalism.

Thanks Anthony, thanks Fionnchù, I think much of ...

2010-09-01T18:34:52.872+01:00

Thanks Anthony, thanks Fionnchù,

I think much of what I said about 32CSM would apply equally to RSF. They share a starting point of anything for or from a united Ireland is democratic and therefore good. It doesn't show much engagement.

They have the same contradiction of wanting to appeal to supranational organisations like the UN but not respecting any interference in Irish life. They favour closing the trade borders and don't seem to think Ireland's position in the EU would have to change much as a result. They seem to want to provide everything on social security, nationalise banking and whatever else suits, without much explanation of how and how much. Their criticisms, as with 32CSM, can be quite good but that's not really enough.

They haven't reconciled the modern world and their pure nationalism either. Some lines could have been in a BNP manifesto:

"There is an Irish nation which is based on an organised society and distinctive culture, with roots stretching back more than 1,500 years. This Irish nation has long endured invasion and colonisation by a more powerful neighbour."

introduces an apparent racial hierarchy accompanied by promises of equality.

They share the same quasi-totalitarian, but totally unrealistic, worldview and don't justify why they won't cooperate with others bodies who effectively engage critically with globalisation trends.

Damian, I have read your article several times and...

2010-09-01T18:22:22.560+01:00

Damian, I have read your article several times and I still find the part in relation to globalisation very confusing.

You acknowledge that, the form of globalisation, which you credit with spreading the Marxist doctrine and the one these 'dissident' groups find problematic are very different!
Why then, did you bring it up?

I do not see the contradiction in the belief that globalisation can be both a positive and negative force.
Many people, would argue that globalisation aided the spread of socialism. I'm sure, they would all so agree it helped spread the neo-liberal capitalist agenda, however, that does not mean their thinking is contradictory.

What, I did think was an oxymoron however, was your statement, that, 'there can be no permanent revolution under a Marxist state,
Marxism by its very definition, defies the existence of a state!

Again in relation to your comparrison between Marxism and Catholicism.
'It reaches a truth paralleled by Catholicism but rejected by 21st Century democratic compromise'
What does this mean? Are you saying within the context of republicanism, Marxism is the new Catholicism? Or are you just making this observation in general?

Lastly in reference again to Marxism, 'it is not the politics of Chavez, Lula or Morales'
I can never ever, remember any of these people claiming it was!

Lots to unpack here in your pithy contrasts such a...

2010-08-31T23:13:06.335+01:00

Lots to unpack here in your pithy contrasts such as Behan to Benedict and Yeats to Marx. How does the Éire Nua policy of RSF align with your critique of distributism and corporatism? Thanks for a calm, lucid, and articulate summation of this combative topic; we look forward to hearing more, Damian.

damian o'loan seems to be under the impression...

2010-08-31T22:24:09.613+01:00

damian o'loan seems to be under the impression that the dissidents
are fighting in some war because of the good friday agreement-
the continuity started in 1986, 12
years before the agreement,
the real started in 1997, about 7
months before the agreement,
parden the pun but the only real anti agreement group are o.n.h, but
this group only started up 10 years after the agreement, makes you think,
is damian calling the dissidents
communist,
eirigi is going to stand in next years local goverment elections in
the 6 counties, and if elected will take there seats,
eirigi is opposed to stormont, thats a good one, take a gander at
its membership.