Comments on The Pensive Quill: Empty Pulpits

Nuala, I think you would have been burned at the...

2010-08-25T14:18:52.858+01:00

Nuala,

I think you would have been burned at the stake - even ten years ago! I could imagine the mob of bollix believers outside your door screaming 'witch.'

Robert,

are you winding me up telling me what scripture instructs us?!!!!

Do you recall where that exchange was? I remember it but just can't trace it. If I remember correctly you implied that my view on whatever it was (Billy Wright?) that I must be making a legal judgement rather an ethical one given that I am an atheist. What reason apart form the absence of a secular moral code would that question be put? Why would my judgement be legally rather than ethically informed? Having said that I am working from memory and may have it wrong on what you actually said.

It depends on where you are in the world - some places do not see adultery as immoral; others see it as not only immoral but illegal. Did Iris strike me as immoral? I never considered it as such in terms of her fling but more in terms of how she had wanted gay people persecuted. That, rather than the fling per se, made it immoral to me.

It baffles me that we could be made in god's image. What is the image that we resemble?

Robert, I watched the first session and to me th...

2010-08-23T20:57:47.615+01:00

Robert,

I watched the first session and to me that went to Dawkins on points. Not that he said anything to gain the points. When Lennox said that god was not a delusion but was real and that Jesus Christ was his son and it said so in the bible ...

To an ear like mine that sounds just like 'Beano the Spinning Jelly Bean Monster is real and it is proved in the Dandy.'

Now Lennox is an intelligent man - professor of maths. For someone like me to whom minor maths is daunting, you can understand my admiration for his intellect. So you can imagine how I jumped on hearing all this about bibles and sons of god. I was expecting an argument based on science rather than a book of fables.

Now, I appreciate the link, fully intend to watch it all, will give Lennox his dues where he merits them and accept so early into the discussion that first impressions may not be lasting.

But for now bibles and Jesus the son of god talk is a serious repellant to me.

Anthony- You are right about quadriplegics extract...

2010-08-22T21:48:35.434+01:00

Anthony- You are right about quadriplegics extracting all the pleasures they can out of life. I have witnessed many paraplegics doing all they can with their remaining muscles (quite a few build up their arm muscles religiously). In my granda's quadriplegic case he used the power of bone movement to paint and write poetry with the aid of a special brush/pen. He was lucky as he could also manage to turn a page of a book with the side of his hand.

I think looking at less fortunate people conquer adversity in the face of little hope can be as powerful as religion in the role it plays teaching us how to live. Whether those people are victims of natural disasters like the floods in Pakistan, victims of war or sexual violence, prisoners living under inhuman conditions, disabled people, or whatever if they can survive the setbacks in life they can be great instructors in how to live and combat disadvantage.

Anthony, "..religion is taken to task for it...

2010-08-22T21:09:41.020+01:00

Anthony,

"..religion is taken to task for its insistence that secularism cannot be the source of a moral code."

We crossed swords on this very issue in a past post. You drew inference that in attempting to make a distinction between moral and legal culpability that I was suggesting you did'nt possess a moral code because you are an atheist, which I was'nt. We consider adultery as immoral but it is'nt illegal for example.
Scripture instructs us that we are moral beings made in God's image. Therefore a moral code is inherent in you regardless of your atheism.

Anthony, " I have never yet seen a religious...

2010-08-22T21:03:44.212+01:00

Anthony,

" I have never yet seen a religious person out-logic him"

Please do view this debate. You may question my objectivity but you will see Lennox out-logic him. As a matter of interest Lennox has also debated Hitchens on “The New Europe should prefer the New Atheism”. I think you will find this interesting as it touches on the Danish cartoon 'controversy'. They have further squared off on 'God Is Not Great'.

Robert, I think the religious types try to put r...

2010-08-22T20:25:54.342+01:00

Robert,

I think the religious types try to put reason on a par with faith. I don't buy into it but have litle difficulty in hearing it phrased that way. My position is simple - a lack of faith in something is not faith in something else unless we go down the endless trail of faith in a lack of faith .....

I think Dawkins is arrogant. I think he doesn't cope well when the arrogance is challenged. However, I have never yet seen a religious person out-logic him. Nor am I impressed by him as a writer. I don't think he conveys his ideas all that well.

I have not seen the debate, not that I recall. I will make a point of viewing it at some stage.

Alfie, I don't believe it does. It is effort...

2010-08-22T20:16:03.067+01:00

Alfie,

I don't believe it does. It is effortless. I have experienced the deaths of immediate family members and needed no religion to get me by. I knew they had ceased to be and had gone back to being what they had been before they were conceived. There was nothing wrong with that. They were not going to bu burned in the fires of hell or forced to live forever worshipping some being that craved endless praise.

Anthony, I believe atheism demands a degree of inner strength and self-reliance that is not asked of theists. But I don't see how atheism itself can sustain or fortify someone in the way that faith in a god can. How can it help you cope with the death of a family member? I feel that atheism is a lonely road that I must travel down to oblivion.

Nuala, I suppose once we accept that man took a ...

2010-08-22T20:11:14.632+01:00

Nuala,

I suppose once we accept that man took a long time coming on the scene given the age of the universe and the earth, and evolved out of slime, we can forget the notion that he was created in god's image or was given dominion over the animals. He was/is an animal.

Mackers, Albert has just informed me that three hu...

2010-08-22T20:07:31.245+01:00

Mackers, Albert has just informed me that three hundred years ago I would have been burnt at the stake.

In his logic, which is fuelled essentially by drink, he is arguing, that I would have been sentenced for being too outspoken and owning cats.

He reckons, they would get a conviction, as he said both he and Kevin would have to testify for the prosecution!!!!

Anthony, "my lack of faith sustains me"...

2010-08-22T20:02:36.155+01:00

Anthony,

"my lack of faith sustains me"

Dr John Lennox has pointed out that this is essentially a form of faith albeit not in God.
I know you are informed greatly by Dawkins. Have you ever viewed the very interesting 2007 'God Delusion' debate between Richard and Dr Lennox held at the University of Alabama?
Before viewing this I often thought of Dawkins as arrogant and an overly self assured Atheist. The debate greatly altered my views on Dawkins - his discomfort is telling. This can be viewed @ www.fixed-point.org

Anthony, I believe atheism demands a degree of inn...

2010-08-22T19:37:52.064+01:00

Anthony, I believe atheism demands a degree of inner strength and self-reliance that is not asked of theists. But I don't see how atheism itself can sustain or fortify someone in the way that faith in a god can. How can it help you cope with the death of a family member? I feel that atheism is a lonely road that I must travel down to oblivion.

Alfie, a lot of what Mackers has said is spot on, ...

2010-08-22T19:37:37.554+01:00

Alfie, a lot of what Mackers has said is spot on, at the end of the day it should be more about, each to their own and whatever gets a person through.

When I was young we had to say the rosary every day at home and I totally resented that.
I was never able to sustain a belief in Our Lady, although, over the years I have wished I could.
Always thought, that this divine and ultimately pure woman was actually created to show women what they should be and then punish them because they could not step up to the mark.

Religion has devastated lives and I have seen that first hand.
Us Catholics seem to be perpetually steeped in guilt, even though, many have absolutely no idea why the feel that way.

Women have suffered horrendously, thanks to the fact that God supposedly created man in his image and likeness.

Yet, in my own head I can seperate my personal belief in Jesus from all of this.

On a final note, Dawkins is on More 4 on Wednesday evening speaking about the God dilusion, normally I would not watch him, but this time I will.

Alfie, my lack of faith sustains me

2010-08-22T19:01:46.979+01:00

Alfie,

my lack of faith sustains me

I often envy believers. My mother, for example, dr...

2010-08-22T18:53:32.692+01:00

I often envy believers. My mother, for example, draws almost superhuman energy from Mass and the Rosary. The sense of purpose, the moral certainty, and the belief in the ultimate triumph of right over wrong do make life easier, not to mention the promise of heaven. So although I'm a committed secularist and could never believe in the vengeful, prurient god of the Catholic Church, I am a reluctant atheist rather than a satisfied one.

Nuala, I don't doubt for a minute that peopl...

2010-08-22T18:48:17.029+01:00

Nuala,

I don't doubt for a minute that people draw strength from a belief in god. I know that George Monbiot once said that the two most committed social justice activists he ever met were inspired by a belief in god.

When my brother in law died I was at his side and he fervently believed he was going to his god but I was not going to tell him it was all a nonsense or to consider the view of Dawkins. Whatever got him over the finishing line was his own affair.

Even those of us who are atheists are not the rational creatures we often assume ourselves to be. We all slip into denialism and practice it. Look at how we view our kids - certainly not the same as the neighbours do! Take the excuses we make for our friends when we would be on an opponent's back if they did the same thing for which we give our friends latitude if not exactly licence.

People who have religious beliefs are entitled to hold them so long as they do not try to prescribe for others who do not hold to the same beliefs. Nor do I think they should be allowed to teach religion in schools as science. Mervyn Storey trying to insist on the right to bamboozle kids that evolution did not happen or that the world is about 6000 years old should be rejected outright. Dawkins always says that to claim the world is 6000 years old is akin to saying that the US is about 8 foot wide.

For years I held to atheism but the depth of it really struck me when I had the sensation of having lost forever an old friend – god; no one left to turn to when in the depths of despair. So I know how deeply ingrained it can be.

At that point I knew there would never be a reconciliation.

I know people get relief from many things. I just feel that the thing might not be real.

Mackers, my ma was actually struggling with religi...

2010-08-22T18:03:43.483+01:00

Mackers, my ma was actually struggling with religion and belief herself in the end. She actually said to me that, she wished she would die quickly while she still believed in something'

I know a lot of people will be less than impressed by my saying this, but when both my parents died I got such strength from my belief in God.
I never perceived God as some airy fairy being occupying a place beyond the clouds somewhere.
Through some really bad stuff in my life, I have actually felt that something not of this world has helped steer me through.

I appreciate the fact that people will say 'thats total crap'
But the reality of my life is, I could not cope without it.

Simon, I guess with being quadriplegics they ext...

2010-08-22T17:27:32.251+01:00

Simon,

I guess with being quadriplegics they extracted what pleasures they could from life.
Selfish? Don’t know about that. As long as you did not cheat the rest doesn’t matter.
My father taught me how to play but turned me into a bad tempered player with his slagging and winding up. My daughter has inherited it. It came out in every sport I ever played.

Nuala,

I have to respect people’s right to a religious opinion. I came from a religious home but we all turned away from it, my ma included who gave us it. She wouldn’t let a priest near the house as she lay dying and asked that no one send a mass card as the church would get £2 from it. The last book she had read to her was Dawkins’ God Delusion. If I needed any reassurance on how to die without god it was to be found in her. But by that stage I was long since by any belief.

But to me religion is always and only an opinion. I respect people for their religion no more than I respect them for their politics or what football team they support. Whether they worship the devil, trees or god, it is all the same to me.

They can build their own churches but should be kept well away from schools

just been to my first muslim birthday party,the mu...

2010-08-20T21:06:41.161+01:00

just been to my first muslim birthday party,the musical chairs was a bit slow but f##k me the pass the parcel was quick

apparently the popemobile has 3 inch bulletproof g...

2010-08-20T21:00:51.255+01:00

apparently the popemobile has 3 inch bulletproof glass,thatsf##kin faith for you

Simon I agree that a police force is better if it ...

2010-08-19T21:10:20.161+01:00

Simon
I agree that a police force is better if it reflects the society it polices although not in a majoritarian sense. And for that reason I would reverse the argument and ask that all come into it on the same terms as everyone else and not place their own hurdles on the basis that ‘society must be defended’ before sectionalism.
I am also apprehensive about individuals being given more rights than other individuals by virtue of membership of some group. I can understand the case for more protection – where a group is victimised – but not more rights.
The case you make has shifted onto Malachi’s ground – one of culture. I still don’t subscribe to it.
As you say we must agree to differ. But if you come back on this fine. I think I’ll leave it at that.

Robert, We will never agree on this. How many sc...

2010-08-18T22:00:03.507+01:00

Robert,

We will never agree on this. How many scientists believe in God? Not a big percentage I think. Although it depends on what statistics we draw on. Frederic Burnham is not the best example given that he was not converted to religion as a result of something like the discovery. He was a person of faith. You could maybe have cited Antony Flew as a stronger example than Burnham given his about turn. But ultimately, “The idea that God created the Universe is a more respectable hypothesis today than at any time in the last 100 years” is borne out by what? I think as Malachi points out in his book religion loses each big conflict with science. DNA has been a source of delight to atheist scientists. Biologists now feel that they can fill in more of the mosaic sketched by Darwin. Without even attempting to go into the research a casual glance at the TV programmes dealing with the origins of the universe never seem to mention religion or intelligent design. I have thought about ID and have been impressed by Hans Kung but ultimately it has no intellectual appeal for me. I simply cannot comprehend the existence of a supernatural being. The notion of an interventionist god is even more ludicrous to me. I can see why people believe that something had to kick the thing off but that it intervenes in human affairs – can’t comprehend how that is seriously entertained as a belief.
Intelligent design in my view has come into being to compensate for the serious deficiencies of cretinous creationism.

Are you a strong believer? Would you practice if that is not too intrusive a question?

Mackers, when I said religion has a role in societ...

2010-08-17T22:27:51.147+01:00

Mackers, when I said religion has a role in society, I should have actually added for people like myself.

Religion has been a big, big factor in my life.
My da took me to Mass every morning before he took me to school, so maybe in some simple way I associate religion with positive aspects in my life.
Like Simon and his grandfather, we also spent endless hours playing draughts, therefore I also have a positive association with that game.

Agree totally with StMary? that religion has quite abusive and destructive connotations.
Christianity, probably reaped more havoc on women than the other four lumped together, although some of them are shamefully catching up.

I agree with you Mackers that, religion should no longer be given a dominant credence.
I also agree with Simon, that a person's religious practices should be allowed to overtly co-exist with their everyday lives, providing they do not infringe on or offend anyone elses.

Anthony, Oppenheimer's recall of the Hindu Bh...

2010-08-17T22:21:11.516+01:00

Anthony,

Oppenheimer's recall of the Hindu Bhagavad Gita, "Now I am become Death, the destroyer of worlds." points us in the direction of much of mans 'free thinking'.

Anthony- I was selfish: I used it in a few games a...

2010-08-17T21:08:42.235+01:00

Anthony- I was selfish: I used it in a few games against my mates and didn't let on how I managed it. It was a fast but complicated move and they just sat there with a furious befuddled look.

My granda and his mate were quadraplegics for a long time and spent a lot of the time playing draughts. They grew up playing it and honed their skills in the wards. My granda taught me how to play. He was an excellent player but had great admiration for his mate who was a class above.

Robert ‘Is humanity really advancing? If you are ...

2010-08-17T20:38:48.902+01:00

Robert

‘Is humanity really advancing? If you are talking about advancement
being technological advancement how far is our advancement when that
technology threatens the very existence of mankind and his environment?’

I recall Derrida pointing out that the enlightenment brought us the gas chambers and what he called the Holocaust of Hiroshima.

In the end it probably all comes down to your view of humanity.

Nuala,

I don’t think society needs religion. But there is a lot of things it doesn’t need but co-exists with. My concern is that religion should have no more rights over people than any other opinion. The idea of suppressing it is anathema.

Saint Mary,

Hedging your hogs?!!!!

Tain Bo

A world without religion does sound a little utopian. It will be around as long as there are people. The discussion is not about its eradication but its role.

Simon,

That checkers move would be a great one to know.