Comments on The Pensive Quill: More Guns Than Votes

Westie, there is probably something in that alth...

2010-05-13T13:03:05.123+01:00

Westie,

there is probably something in that although I guess the ground that Naomi covered could not be filled by the PUP input.

When Squinter made his critique of Adams record as MP I recall writing that Adams was not so bad an MP …

But if you consider that the deprivation in the West is so bad, the MP seems to have brought no changes and seems unlikely to do so, you begin to wonder why people vote SF. An implausible opposition always helps.

There are a lot in the party who have blind faith. I am not sure this is always extended to the electorate. When the party white stick men were telling the electorate that decommissioning would never happen I heard more than a few laugh at them. It didn’t stop them voting the party, just showed that they had more savvy than those in the party they were voting for. I think in situations that are sometimes defined as ‘ethnic conflict’, rigid voting patterns and leaders who stay in charge for decades on end are a characteristic.

Anthony Most local commentators in East belfast c...

2010-05-12T21:16:15.820+01:00

Anthony

Most local commentators in East belfast claim that Dawn Pervis from the PUP threw her support behind Naomi Long because of the work she does on the ground for working, or not so working class loyalist communities, and this throws a slightly different slant on it but one that is to be welcomed.

on the SF front, I don't agree that SF voters are blind followers. The Party still do a lot on the ground and so whilst the votes may not be for an active revolutionary party, people see a big distinction in terms of the work and presence of SF in our areas and other political parties who were asking for votes.

slán

Westie

Nuala, I think that is the problem with the Lear...

2010-05-12T09:18:26.118+01:00

Nuala,

I think that is the problem with the Leargas blog (admittedly I have not read it but know the modus operandi) and all SF ventures. There is no democratic discussion. That is why people get banned from those blogs or have their comments suppressed. There can be no meaningful debate there only thought control. Occasionally we get a Shinner on this blog. They are welcome and in my view make a valid contribution to discussion. There are things to be learned from them and hopefully they learn from us as well.

Westie, While you and your friends in SF do not ...

2010-05-10T21:39:21.477+01:00

Westie,

While you and your friends in SF do not view the actions of armed republicans as criminal your leadership very much does. And it will continue to articulate that view for as long as you and your friends remain silent.

I know there are difficulties in speaking out and perhaps by not endorsing your leadership’s view you may feel you are doing as much as you can.

You are hardly alone in not being able to see the point in what the armed republicans are doing. It is of no value to anyone and will change nothing. The Brit tenure in Ireland will not be shortened by one day and in fact may be lengthened by the armed activity.

I believe you are right about the state of the armed campaign in the 90s. As bad as it was it was much healthier than the one today. Given how little it achieved what chance ha the current one of improving on it in terms of change secured?

Was the operation that took Joanne Mathers’ life in the run up to the election of Bobby Sands against the Brits? The point I am making is simple: there is nothing new under the sun about today’s armed republicans. They do what the Provisional IRA did and are subject to the exact same criticism because of it.

I don’t know if voting is ritualistic or if it is the result of a thinking process. A mixture of both I guess. But it did strike me that the vote for Naomi Long was a result of considerable thinking. People simply not prepared to put up with the same old same old did the honourable thing. With no equivalent on the Green side of the wall the unionists will probably have achieved a considerable PR coup abroad.

Just my musings.

I and most of my psf friends dont view the armed ...

2010-05-10T17:23:59.876+01:00

I and most of my psf friends dont view the armed activistis of today as criminals!TP Your deputy fuhrer herr Marty would be mighty pissed to hear that, after he publicly called them traitors, you relaise your not totaly in line with the party here, and thats not acceptable, I can see and your mates being ordered to attend futher intensive education psf style in party hq, gawd almighty next you,l be qustioning the Fuhrer and thats a no no.Can I also take it that if you had any imformation on those armed activists you wouldnt be passing that on to the psni, if so that would make you a very naughty boy with a very poor future in the party Jaysssssus you could end up here with me Nuala Larry et al as a free thinking rep ,anythings possible TP

Anthony I maybe picked up too much on the commen...

2010-05-10T12:20:26.675+01:00

Anthony

I maybe picked up too much on the comment about Bobby and his comrades being dismissed by his own community, they having no mandate and that their actions going against the expressed wishes of the irish people. Take your point about the dip and swell of support at certain times back in the seventies and eighties, but I suppose I always remember growing up as a kid at that time in West Belfast that you always got the sense the we were the good guys and I knew very little people who didn't support the RA in some shape or form.

I and most of my PSF friends don't view the armed activists of today as criminals. I just cannot see the point in what they are doing - and as I have said before on the blog, I felt the same way about the way the armed struggle was going in the nineties, which is why I agreed with the leadership decision to call the ceasefire when they did.

The operation on Thursday, getting a taxi driver to drive to the polling station in Derry, was this against the brits?

The make up of the Sinn Féin vote may be evolving, especially with new voters coming on board, but the vast majority of the vote is from traditional Provisional supporters and their families. I was delighted to see the vote hold up at a time when people were predicting that it might not - due to people turning away from SF, or at best, becoming more apathetic.

People can read what they like into the figures, for me, I was pleased that people are still concerned enough about the politics of this part of Ireland to have their vote counted. It is very difficult to discount the people when they go to the ballot box - you may not always like the outcome, but it shows how the people of our communities are thinking at that particular time.

Slán

Westie

point taken mackers and accepted marty worse thing...

2010-05-09T18:59:14.883+01:00

point taken mackers and accepted
marty worse things than a bus to sligo or the Grange have been done..

Yeah Larry that may just happen mo cara , I,m head...

2010-05-09T17:42:18.360+01:00

Yeah Larry that may just happen mo cara , I,m heading of with Marie in a bonding exercise, yip we are gonna bond a load of fishies on to our hooks, Lisadell house in Sligo home of Constance Markievicz is worth a visit beautiful beach and grounds I believe Lenorad Cohen is playing there in Aug,though not a fan ,more Dlyan me, I might just head to it, anyway a wee lad asks his mum"why am I black and you are white" she says"dont even go there, when I think back to that f...in party your lucky you dont bark"

Larry, you were not getting it in the neck. We all...

2010-05-09T16:12:06.299+01:00

Larry, you were not getting it in the neck. We allowed the comment despite being unhappy with it. Had you used terms that expressed your view of his political opinion or position fine but to focus on a disability of some sort - not the way to go. It is the SF way - you saw that with their response to Brendan and Dolours

Mackers..think that was me getting it in the neck ...

2010-05-09T16:00:05.001+01:00

Mackers..think that was me getting it in the neck there for the stutter craic? shall refrain in future...big Bobby wasn't the worst..probably why he's not been rewarded with a deeper role in the stormont crapheap. His profile before leaves me curious about that.
Marty my mrs just back today from a hen night in Sligo..so I'm up in the brownie points..have a feeling if we met in Leitrim water/or guinnes could find its own level...
forward a contact detail or get my dtails from mackers..cuppla days howlin never hurt anyone lol

Mackers, I told Mr Adams a few weeks ago that he s...

2010-05-09T12:25:13.416+01:00

Mackers, I told Mr Adams a few weeks ago that he should have a wee
look on "The Pensive Quill" and observe how a proper blog site operates.
Leargas, his own blog is run like a mutual admiration society.
Only posts that pay absolute homage get through.

Marty, 'so willingly sold out for so little&...

2010-05-09T10:48:33.840+01:00

Marty,

'so willingly sold out
for so little'

that is the perplexing thing about it. To be rewarded with so little for it.

Awee aside if you dont mind Anthony, heres a wee ...

2010-05-09T10:16:49.348+01:00

Awee aside if you dont mind Anthony, heres a wee quiz for you and Larry, Nuala will probably hound me for this , but what the hell, 1 What do you call a 30 year west Belfast girl? Gran..2 What do you call a west Belfast girl in a white tracksuit?..The bride 3 Whats the first question at a west Belfasr quiz night?..What are you looking at...2 westies in a car wearing seatbelts whos driving? the police..4 Whats the most confusing day in west Belfast?.. Fathers day

Mick, inshallah!!! it is about all we can do. I ...

2010-05-09T10:01:58.569+01:00

Mick,

inshallah!!!

it is about all we can do. I can see no republican future. Republican activists should consider validating their republicanim through different projects. There are lots of improvements to be made in the lives of people, most of which a Brit free Ireland or a Brit run Ireland has little relevance to.

I wasnt passing judgement Anthony just being a nos...

2010-05-09T09:34:09.606+01:00

I wasnt passing judgement Anthony just being a nosey f...er as usual ,you keep on keepin on man your a bright light in a dark place

Marty, what comment was deleted? Yes, just notic...

2010-05-09T08:54:34.769+01:00

Marty,

what comment was deleted? Yes, just noticed it as I went down the page. It was deleted by the author of the comment not by me. I deleted one the other night because it was somebody saying they had bought tickets for the Addams family film and they provided a link. Could have been a dodgy link. But because it was not related to anything we were talking about and the person posting it seemed to have got the families mixed up I struck it out.I think the deletion last night was by Nuala as she reposted later and it is now placed after my response to it rather than prior to it! We delete nothing. Someone who used to post a lot but was really only trolling went around and deleted all her previous stuff. We didn't touch it but would not permit her access to post again. We let the lot up even when we are not happy with it because it might be an attack on people for no good reason - slagging a speech impediment or disability. I think that has only happened twice.

GEESUUUUS Anthony I see for the first time a comme...

2010-05-09T00:24:43.047+01:00

GEESUUUUS Anthony I see for the first time a comment deleted and it makes me want to know what we missed, I texed the bbc the other night during the elections after Barry Mac Alduff made a comment re a bomb scare at one of the counts the fuckers took my money but didnt print my comment do you think I am missing something here

Mackers, I think there is a considerable differenc...

2010-05-09T00:17:08.970+01:00

Mackers, I think there is a considerable difference in the complextion of the people who vote Sinn Fein today, than perhaps fifteen to twenty years ago.
They know that the shinners are a safe option as there is absolutely no way they will rock any boat.

They (Sinn Fein) have not progessed one single piece of reform. Rather, they have put the boot into their own voters in relation to the rate hikes and the water charges.
They ignore the plight of republican prisoners, accusing them of being criminals.
Many of them have feathered their countless nests on the backs of the people.
Their party leader makes Saint Peter (the one that denied Christ, not Robinson) sound honest.
He even makes Judas look as if he had some integrity.
Yet people turned out to vote for them.

I really believe that, if an indepth research study was carried out in relation to the makeup of the people who now vote for Sinn Fein, the results would be more surprising than his return.

Few republicans in the area in which I live would vote for Sinn Fein. However, friends of mine who were former SDLP voters are now ardent Gerry supporters.
Not one of them has an iota about Sinn Fein's manifesto or any of their policies (Could not care less I expect)
Sinn Fein does however, provide them with something they did not have before. They have the luxury of fence sitting in that cosy safe place now created for constitutional republicans.

Few of these people would have formerly (In my granny's words)
"Given republicans a drink of water"
Yet they now flock to the polling stations in their droves to vote for a "Republican Party

Feel a bit gutted to be honest.
Think I will sneak on to Leargas and get the number of the new shinner ex-prisoner help group "The Befrienders" unless anyone here has it?

Larry a cara if I wasnt spoken for and in love wi...

2010-05-09T00:14:45.008+01:00

Larry a cara if I wasnt spoken for and in love with Marie Nuala Eve Kate Mariead Filo ffs sake every woman who gave the two finger salute to the brits ,the men and boys and girls who as Bobby said played a part in the patriot game every mother and gran who opened a door, every man ,woman who flashed lights rattled bin lids,that was the republican movement,my heart lies with the people fooled as they may be by the weasel words of those who think they are to smart for the working class,spouting words bigger than any found on the back of a marmalade jar,I dont give a fuck what anyone thinks I believe that without the death of Bobby Sands and those brave comrades psf would not be the political force they are today, what also makes me sad is that I played a part in putting those wasters ,where they are today, yes Westie I had to wear bullet proof vests to attend council meetings ,the same bastards who threatened us and orchestrated pickets are now the bestest of mates,not with me like fuck I say,on a gable wall in Beechmount there used to be in great big letters the following FUCK 1690 WE WANT A REPLAY, it summed up the spirit of a rising people times change tactics change but forgive me I dont know the source maybe Ernie O Malley (the man) Give the people good sound leadership and they will follow,which makes me feel so sad that those who I once thought as heros had feet of clay, so Larry a cara in a few days time I,m away to dip my head in Leitrims lakes, Nuala does,nt allow Albert to play with bad boys , so if ya fancy howling at the moon gis a shout

Nuala, I think that is right. I think republican...

2010-05-08T23:34:23.128+01:00

Nuala,

I think that is right. I think republicans today would not vote SF. It would be like us voting the Sticks in the 1970s or 80s. The Sticks contnued to argue that they were republicans but no one apart from themselevs believed it. No republican believed it. SF today are just a Catholic party for a Catholic people. I wasn't demoralised by any of it. I suppose living down here where they don't matter it doesn't matter. Different if you live up in West Belfast. The Sticks vote SF which sort of shows how shallow they are because for decades they spewed out the myth that they were anti-sectarian.

2010-05-08T23:23:42.946+01:00

This comment has been removed by the author.

Westie, good to see you back. You are always wel...

2010-05-08T20:39:19.888+01:00

Westie,

good to see you back. You are always welcome.

Who made the comparison you refer to i.e. that republican com’munities view today’s armed republicans as the republican communities of yesteryear did? If it appeared in one of the comments I glossed over it.

In 1976 our communities were not coming down with open doors. We had tremendous difficulty mobilising people to come out in support of Frank Stagg the same year. One of the reasons behind the switching over to a more cell type structure in the IRA was to complement for a lack in support on the ground. An army was built that did not rely on it to the same extent. Support for the armed struggle was waning in Belfast by the end of 73. Our callfor a boycott of that year's assembly elections was treated with contempt.

Fast forward to the 90s and reflect on the difficulty of getting safe houses and dumps.

The picture you paint was more true of the early 1970s and presumably around the time of the hunger strikes. Both periods witnessed republicanism as popular insurrectionary politics. But in general it was not that easy.

There was much more support in a general sense for the Provisional IRA. Today's armed republicans more resemble the IRA of pre-1969 than the Provisional IRA. That does not make them criminals.

What your analysis does not address is that the IRA only ever had minority support. And basically the only thing the Provisional IRA could honestly say to today's IRAs is 'our minority was bigger than yours.'

But they are not saying that. McGuinness recently said that today’s armed republicans are going against the wishes of the Irish people. But so did all IRAs.

Bobby Sands had the support of a minority of people within the nationalist community for his armed activities. Today's armed republicans have minority support - a much smaller minority than Bobby had backing him. But that can hardly be the basis for calling one a criminal but not the other.

I think you are right. We cannot dismiss the possibility that Bobby might have been an integral part of the current SF leadership. But it remains only a possibility. We can say with utmost certainty that were he alive and carried out an armed operation the SF leadership would accuse him of being a criminal and would call for people to tout to the British on him.

On Michelle, when I was told she had lost by 8 votes I commented that 'it is an amazing result for her given that she took it so close given the circumstances.' That she won by 8 has not changed my opinion.

At the end of the day
it matters not
they have the veto
and we have not!

Marty. ur comments do my wee heart good..i brought...

2010-05-08T19:59:59.550+01:00

Marty. ur comments do my wee heart good..i brought the mrs to see The history of the troubles acording to my oul Da' [ think thats the correct title ] in Letterkenny last year . Ivan Bell [ UTV ? ] was in it and he was, as were all the cast, FANTASTIC. But point im makin..when the falls riots broke out + the huns were goin nuts...half the population headin fer Cork..one wee Belfast lad was asked..are u goin to Cork too?' Am i fuk [ he roared at the front of the stage ] im goin down the bottom eh the falls tae get tore intae the CUNTS..' I get the feelin Marty..it was YOU. The play got a standing ovation..best night of my life..coz my wife saw an irish political crowd in emotional action..things began to gel mentaly what the hell she'd married lol altho i had the odd time to explain to my mrs. some of the political intricacies, she loved it, for the atmosphere the passion- the heap!!
As for westie and politics in general..what can you do only keep true to your own heart..i prefer to be unpopular [ not too much ] for the underdog and steadfast without being 'conformist' my cousins in the USA and Australia tell me non-conformists opened those places up. I'll never engineer myself into a position, for a few votes, of taking the side of those establishment lackies who would turn a blind eye to hopeless but fearless 'Irish nobodies' getting mowed down at the side of the road coz few were on their side..but everyone knew they were correct. ooops sorry if i upset the "SDLP" There lol [ SF? ]. Head up Marty, WE are the UNDEFEATED, the un-BOUGHT, but never...the uninterested.
BTW that wee Belfast fella had some swagger..think SF lost that..after swapping us for the SDLP vote lol.

RE: Had he lived what position would he hold today...

2010-05-08T10:23:58.016+01:00

RE: Had he lived what position would he hold today? No way of telling. But it is impossible to imagine the bearded, blanketed, emaciated Bobby Sands screaming ‘criminal’ at a young republican who set out with more guns than votes to wage armed struggle.
yes...
What mick hall wrote is so true... ppl speak of it all in the past but the pain is searing for many and the losses were/are real. The past always bleeds into the present. The unbearable only becomes bearable though by engaging in life and plodding on. The courage of the Ten is burnt/imprinted and always will be on each generation of Irish. Their courage renowned worldwide. Dare i say it yeah i do Spirit is stronger than flesh. You cannot break spirit - flesh yeah but not spirit. There is apathy in the south for sure - many comfortable on their big fat arses but the whiff of struggle street acoming their way economically has ponged up their closeted nirvana and the pong is getting stronger. Adams and his cohorts are such shameful specimens of humanity Strangled by rosary beads, bullshit and compromise. Makes the Ten shine brighter.

Nuala, It must have been an eerie or surreal fee...

2010-05-08T10:15:45.195+01:00

Nuala,

It must have been an eerie or surreal feeling going into court on that particular day. Sile DeValera was very moving in her description. I remember the visit and her thoughts on it.

Larry,

hope you get something out of the book.

Interested,

the unfortunate thing is that more will see jails and not be able to see the graves they end up in. Tragic