Comments on The Pensive Quill: Truth and Lies in Gaza

This Christmas, Let's Remember, Jesus Was A Palestinian

High Arka, And Kentucky Baptists are a bad lot – ...

2012-12-24T11:08:43.785Z

High Arka,

And Kentucky Baptists are a bad lot – even jailing people for a year if they don’t buy into the god myth!!

Ted,

I recall Boney M singing a song in the 70s called By The Rivers of Babylon.

You certainly concede the moral ambiguity at the heart of Zionism even though many of us go further and see no ambiguity there, finding it outright immoral. As for compromise, the Palestinians don’t seem to have a lot to give.

There is no one view of anything on this blog. I run the blog but other than what I write it does not reflect my views or the views of anyone else here. There is some serious disagreement amongst opponents of Israel on the state of affairs in the Middle East. What seems to unite that school of thought is abhorrence towards the sheer brutal racism of the Israeli state.

It is not just people in Ireland who liken the Israeli perspective to Nazis. Is the following Israeli colonel ‘perverse and unhinged’? According to John Simpson of the BBC the colonel said to him during the invasion of Lebanon: ‘we are like Nazis here. Sharon is a war criminal and we are helping him do his dirty work. Its genocide. All of us are guilty.’

Given Israel's military dominance, the fact that there has been no Palestinian genocide is conclusive evidence that Israel does not desire a Palestinian genocide

This might tell us more about global restraints than Israeli desires. Was Sabra and Shatilla any less an act of genocide than Babi Yar?

On a related point why did the Israeli public not demand Ariel Sharon imprisoned for crimes against humanity in the wake of the khan Commissions’ report? They elected him prime minister.

High Arka,

Norman Finklestein also caused serious problems for Daniel Goldhagen’s book Germany’s Willing executioners. I really enjoyed that book but it is not without flaws as Finklestein drew attention to. He has been a fine dismantler of myth and bias over the years.

Alfie

Minorities should be respected, but not pandered to.

If someone can come up with a better prescription it will be good to ponder.

Alfie If I had been a Jew in the 1930s and 40...

2012-12-24T07:20:02.187Z
Alfie

If I had been a Jew in the 1930s and 40s, I would probably have been a Zionist, but I'm not sure that that makes Zionism legitimate, for the Arabs of Palestine would have to pay for the sins of European anti-Semitism.

This shows how circumstantial and ethical logic collide.

Belfast Bookworm,

I think Ted has a point about identifying with the underdog. The sense of right and wrong that is ascribed to republicans seemed to go down the plughole a long time ago. The SF partitionists still march for Palestine but as we both agree they would march to bomb Gaza tomorrow if the leadership asked them to.

I think Alfie is right about the immorality of the counter attacks. Any action that targets civilians is in my view immoral, whether they live in Gaza, Tel Aviv or Whitecross.

Massacre, the deliberate destruction of infrastructure, the prevention and destruction of sustainable industry in farming and fishing, the deprivation of electricity and water, attacking hospitals and schools, detaining
pregnant women to their deaths on the border is genocide

Hard to disagree with that.

Ted, I am fascinated by the response of Irish ...

2012-12-12T08:04:15.708Z
Ted,

I am fascinated by the response of Irish republicanism, the Irish people's
nationalist movement, with Zionism, the Jewish people's nationalist
movement.

I think you answered that well yourself. Irish republicanism being the underdog is hardly going to identify with a brutal repressive state violating the nation state of a much weaker opponent.

it's not immoral to be the stronger force in a dispute

It immoral to use that strength to repress out of a vindictive, punitive desire.

Belfast Bookworm, The ratio of deaths is some...

2012-12-09T14:04:16.201Z
Belfast Bookworm,

The ratio of deaths is something around 115:1.

Which shows the asymmetrical nature of applied violence. Sheer vindictive, punitive overkill.

If Tel Aviv were to be blown to kingdom come what justification could be proffered for the innocents who would most certainly be killed were such an outcome to come about?

I don’t doubt that a genocidal intent exists within the minds of a substantial number of Israelis, among them key policy people. I think it is inevitable when people start to think they are ‘the chosen people’. It reminds me of the special race of Aryan supermen. When people are allowed to run with that notion then eliminationist ideology is not that far behind. Ironically one of those at the fore in outlining eliminationist ideology is the Zionist writer Daniel Goldhagen in his book Germany’s Willing Executioners.

Yet, I don’t think they will gas the Palestinians. It would be too self defeating given the range of exterminationist methods available. That does not mean they would not apply physical genocide in another form. Jacques Derrida pointed to the holocaust of Nagasaki and Hiroshima.

Marty,

If Ireland was the most anti-Semitic country in the world I would see it as a bad thing. If it were to be the most anti-Zionist country in the world (I don’t believe it is) that would be a good thing. If Israel were to be wiped off the face of the earth we face the same question I raised with Belfast Bookworm: what justification would there be for the mass slaughter of so many innocents? I agree with Alfie when he says I certainly don't think Israel
should now be "wiped off the face of the map". Like him I don't agree with the ‘suicide bombings of the past’ or the rocket attacks against civilians. I happen to think bombing civilians is wrong. I don’t think it is right to do it in Birmingham, Dublin/Monaghan, Baghdad, Twin Towers, Tel Aviv or Gaza. To start selecting one location and argue for the civilians there to be killed is to say the people there have no rights. This is one of the big critiques I have of the Israeli state – it behaves exactly like that, obliterating the rights of Palestinian civilians.

If Palestinians shoot Israeli troops I see that just as I would guerrillas in the Warsaw Ghetto attacking SS troops.

Alfie,

A one-state solution in which the Palestinians and Israelis could live together in a secular state would be the ideal, but it is a utopian fantasy. The most pragmatic resolution to the conflict is the foundation of
a viable Palestinian state on the 1967 borders alongside Israel. All of the Israeli settlements must be removed for this to happen.

While I don’t like this I think it is potentially the only outcome that might prove sustainable. Against that we see the Israelis working to ensure that the two state solution is not possible with its building of more settlements. For a solution to be remotely possible Israel must recognise in real terms, not verbal ones, Palestine’s right to exist.

Unfortunately, the U.S. owns the U.N. Decades of v...

2012-12-04T15:05:13.892Z
Unfortunately, the U.S. owns the U.N. Decades of votes on the Arab genocide have resulted in all, or almost all, of the other member states voting against just U.S. and Israel. Casting votes on nonbinding resolutions will change nothing.

George W. Bush said it best to the rest of the world: "Bring it on."

Israel will act like the bastard state it is as lo...

2012-12-04T10:51:29.760Z
Israel will act like the bastard state it is as long as America bankrolls it,like a spoilt brat it wants everything it sees regardless who is the rightful owner, and like a spoilt brat a good hard smack is long overdue,its way past time that the UN grew a set of BALLS and implemented those sanctions..

Anthony. They are inviting more rockets to be fir...

2012-12-03T22:56:16.951Z
Anthony.

They are inviting more rockets to be fired into there illegally held land.

They want to try and wipe out the true owners of that occupied land, "The Palestinian People", and to crown it all, The U.S.A. has stated that it fears Syria will use chemical weapons on its own people, They said that about Iraq! and all those so called WMD, which were found to be NON EXISTENT.
Makes you wonder what is actually going on with these so called super powers, next we will hear that reports of chemical weapons have been used by serian military, Then another gulf war!!!!, The russians learned there lesson when the invaded Afghanistan, there soldiers were skinned alive, they withdrew from that country, yet under the guise of the U.N, the west decided to invade it as well, don't they ever learn, No Country in history has ever invaded Afghanistan and won, we just have to look at the state of it and Iraq, prisoners murdered/tortured/humiliated.
Palestine is Palestine, and that is the Real name for it, NOT ISRAEL.

The Israeli state extending the settlements. It is...

2012-12-03T22:37:05.082Z
The Israeli state extending the settlements. It is impossible to believe it has any intention of treating Palestinians justly. While it refuses to recognise the right of Palestine to exist it should be treated as an international pariah.

Ryan; Cable TV? Yeah and this is run off the 24/...

2012-11-24T09:58:00.635Z
Ryan;

Cable TV? Yeah and this is run off the 24/7 electricity I suppose. It would be funny if it wasn't so dangerous.

Designer clothes and trainers? 4 out of 5 Gazans depend on humanitarian aid; clothes, medicine as basic as paracetamol and food as basic as wheat and long life milk. This is FACT.

The deliberate destruction and collapse of the Gazan economy, blocked crossings and of course the blockade prevent anything from being made or brought in or out of the Strip. But you are telling me that such companies as Nike and Apple are getting through? Let me know how they're doing this as I have a friend out there who is simply DYING for a pair of Jimmy Choo shoes.

Everyone in the world knows this - even pro-Zionists. How come you don't??

@Ryan. I have to say you are spot on. Palestine w...

2012-11-22T22:27:21.642Z
@Ryan.
I have to say you are spot on.

Palestine was split by the British and the French in 1948, they gave the Jews there own state (before anyone comes down on me like a ton of bricks, I have nothing against Jewish people, nor for that matter, I have nothing against anyone's nationality)
Every country which Britain has had Military intervention, "NOTHING GOOD CAME FROM IT", We just have to look at our own country, I Read today that more courts in the U.K. are to have special closed hearings of secret evidence were the accused is not allowed to hear it. welcome to the united states of Europe (U.K) flouting E.U. laws. Big Brother Is WATCHING , it's the N.W.O. Stand up and be counted people.

My Gaza is a rough concentration camp. I see the p...

2012-11-22T20:36:39.155Z
My Gaza is a rough concentration camp. I see the people out last night taking photos with their IPhone 5s, watching the "celebrations" on their HDTV with their cable. Shooting the AKs in their designer jeans, members only jackets, new Nike trainers.
Those "victory" celebrations yesterday reminded me of the "victory" celebrations outside Connolly HOuse in September 1994. But I'll give the Palestinians some credit, they are tough people who don't back down from a fight.If Gerry Adams was their leader they'd have surrendered at the first sighting of an Israeli jet.

High Arka if you think like this Whatever st...

2012-11-21T17:49:44.805Z
High Arka if you think like this

Whatever stance you take on the unfortunate difficulties happening right now in Gaza, we must be reasonable and allow Israel to defend itself.

There is no hope for mankind if you think for one second all Israel is doing is defending themselves. The very formation of the modern state of Israel was born on the back of state sponsered terrorism (maybe you over looked the Stern Gang when reading history).

As bookworm said...

Massacre, the deliberate destruction of infrastructure, the prevention and destruction of sustainable industry in farming and fishing, the deprivation of electricity and water, attacking hospitals and schools, detaining pregnant women to their deaths on the border is genocide whether you believe or accept it or not.

Probably goes a long way in explaining why the Palestinian people believe they have no choice but to defend their human rights. Hopefully one day you'll get your head around that.

Unlike either yourself High Arka or myself, We aren't going hungry, we have medical supplies, schools to get educated in. But ordinary Palestinians are being denied basic human rights.

Alfie a cara "the wests awake" as far as...

2012-11-21T10:44:57.271Z
Alfie a cara "the wests awake" as far as the genocide in Palestine is concerned the west is in a fucking coma..

Ted, Sorry for not getting back to you sooner. Ap...

2012-11-21T01:47:26.891Z
Ted,

Sorry for not getting back to you sooner. Apart from the Irish Republic's national anthem, I am not sure that there is a poem or song that all Irish people know which expresses their national sentiments.

I come from the west of Ireland. Whenever I want to remember my ancestors, I sing this song by the great 19th century balladeer Thomas Davis:

The West's Awake

When all beside a vigil keep,
The West's asleep, the West's asleep.
Alas! and well may Erin weep
When Connacht lies in slumber deep.
There lake and plain smile fair and free,
'Mid rocks their guardian chivalry.
Sing, Oh ! let man learn liberty
From crashing wind and lashing sea.

That chainless wave and lovely land
Freedom and nationhood demand;
Be sure the great God never planned
For slumb'ring slaves a home so grand.
And long a brave and haughty race
Honoured and sentinelled the place.
Sing, Oh! not even their sons' disgrace
Can quite destroy their glory's trace.

For often, in O'Connor's van,
To triumph dashed each Connacht clan.
And fleet as deer the Normans ran
Thro' Corrsliabh Pass and Ardrahan;
And later times saw deeds as brave,
And glory guards Clanricard's grave,
Sing, Oh! they died their land to save
At Aughrim's slopes and Shannon's wave.

And if, when all a vigil keep,
The West's asleep! the West's asleep!
Alas! and well may Erin weep
That Connacht lies in s1umber deep.
But, hark! a voice like thunder spake,
The West's awake! the West's awake!
Sing, Oh! hurrah! let England quake,
We'll watch till death for Erin's sake.

Just returned from a rally in belfast city centre ...

2012-11-20T21:51:17.423Z
Just returned from a rally in belfast city centre in support of the Palestinian people. Organised very quickly just last night, its estimated around 1500 people came out to show solidarity and demand an end to the Zionist murderous rampage in Gaza where another 18 people have been slaughtered today.

Another rally is planned for Belfast on Saturday, congregating at the Art College. Please come and show your support. Time to be confirmed.

:D

2012-11-20T10:35:49.050Z
:D

tfolkman: "Sean Bres: You don't know wha...

2012-11-20T10:05:42.529Z
tfolkman:

"Sean Bres: You don't know what you're talking about. See, e.g., this 2000 paper from the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences. No doubt the National Academy of Sciences is merely a pawn of the Zionist conspiracy to gin up a connection to the land of Israel for nefarious purposes?"

Let's take a look at another far more credible opinion on this, the internationally renowned Jewish Encyclopedia. University of Toronto librarian, Jenny Mendelsohn, in an online guide to major sources of information about Jews and Judaism, writes of the Encyclopedia;

"Although published in the early 1900s, this was a work highly regarded for its scholarship. Much of the material is still of value to researchers in Jewish History."

In 2003 Rabbi Joshua L. Segal described it as "a remarkable piece of Jewish scholarship". So we can say that the Encyclopedia has established its credentials as a laudable work detailing the history and the current state of the historic Jewish people.

So what does the Jewish Encyclopedia have to say about this Ashkenazi Jew "conspiracy"? Well let's see....

The 1925 Encyclopedia speaks of the existence of the Ashkenazi Jews and acknowledges that these "converted Jews" represent approximately 90 per cent of so-called "world Jewry". It also contains a startling admission, that the so called enemy of the Jews, Esau (also known as Edom, see Genesis 36:1), now actually represents the Jewish race, when on page 42 of Volume V it is stated,

"Edom is in modern Jewry."

So what's being said is that these Ashkenazi Jews, who as was admitted represent 90 per cent of the so-called Jewish population, are actually "gentiles" or "goyim" themselves.

All this ethnic, racial stuff can be considered as jibber-jabber or whatever, that's at the individual's discretion. But it's important that if you're going to speak of a historic Jewish Nation and its "right to return" then you need to get your facts straight.

The biblical right of return does not apply to the Ashkenazi Jews.

At the end of the day Israel is a Zionist state and not a Jewish state. It merely uses the historical Jewish people to further its ideological ends, it has no connection to the original Jewish people scattered from the Holy Land thousands of years ago. Those who set up and now run the state of Israel are Khazar's and not Israelites no matter how you spin it.

"I know thy works, and tribulation and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan."

Revelations 2:9

tfolkman there is indeed a very popular poem and s...

2012-11-20T09:03:55.450Z
tfolkman there is indeed a very popular poem and song that is recited and sung by many here in Ireland,a simple little ditty with a big message which is relevant to those occupiers of stolen Palestinian land.
Go on British soldiers ,go on home
Have you no fucking home of your own
For 800 years we fought you without fear.
And we,ll fight for 800 more
we,ll fight the British/Israeli soldiers for the cause
We,ll never bow to soldiers because
Throughout history we were born to be free
So get out British/Israeli bastards leave us be..

Tfolkman; yes. There is such a song. It's call...

2012-11-20T08:28:33.799Z
Tfolkman; yes. There is such a song. It's called 'Go on Home' :-)

Alfie, I would love, by the way, to learn somethin...

2012-11-20T02:35:38.963Z
Alfie, I would love, by the way, to learn something similar about the Irish. Is there a poem that all Irish people know that expresses love of their land?

Alfie, while I don't agree with you, the open-...

2012-11-20T02:21:15.028Z
Alfie, while I don't agree with you, the open-mindedness in your comment is worth more than all the screeds we've seen elsewhere in this thread!

If you are interested in the source for my assertions about the history of Jewish desire to return to the land of Israel, you might want to read the central daily prayer known as the Amidah, which contains a prayer for the ingathering of the exiles. Or you could look at the end of the Passover Haggadah: "Next year in Jerusalem!" But my favorite, for sheer beauty, is Ps. 137, which is said as part of the grace after meals on most days and which both Jews and Christians have regarded as one of the most beautiful psalms. If you like poetry, perhaps you will appreciate it:

By the rivers of Babylon, there we sat down, yea, we wept, when we remembered Zion.

Upon the willows in the midst thereof we hanged up our harps.

For there they that led us captive asked of us words of song, and our tormentors asked of us mirth: 'Sing us one of the songs of Zion.'

How shall we sing the Lord's song in a foreign land?

If I forget thee, O Jerusalem, let my right hand forget her cunning.

Let my tongue cleave to the roof of my mouth, if I remember thee not; if I set not Jerusalem above my chiefest joy.

Here is another poem, this one by the twelfth-century poet Yehuda Halevy, who lived in Spain:

My heart is in the East, and I am at the ends of the West;

How can I taste what I eat and how could it be pleasing to me?

How shall I render my vows and my bonds, while yet

Zion lies beneath the fetter of Edom, and I am in the chains of Arabia?

It would be easy for me to leave all the bounty of Spain --

As it is precious for me to behold the dust of the desolate sanctuary.

Look, poems won't convince anyone of anything, nor should they. I quote these just as examples of the centuries-old Jewish longing to return to the land of Israel, which was the point on which you raised a question.

When debating such a heated and important issue on...

2012-11-20T00:53:40.226Z
When debating such a heated and important issue on the internet, we all must be mindful of how ridiculous conspiracy theories can start to fly around.

For example, some people worry that various western intelligence agencies have paid operatives creating fraudulent social networking accounts of various types that can be used to disseminate information friendly to a war-making financial elite.

This rubbish is so ridiculous that it doesn't even merit discussion. The free democracies of America, Britain, and Israel would never condone their CIA, Mossad or MI6 agents engaging in such silliness with taxpayer dollars, anymore than newspaper publishers or television producers would mar their journalistic credibility by printing articles or airing TV/radio programmes with disguised messages.

Whatever stance you take on the unfortunate difficulties happening right now in Gaza, we must be reasonable and allow Israel to defend itself. Surely, in a few years, the Palestinians will see that they can't be treated as a responsible people as long as they support terrorist organizations that would dare launch missiles into Israeli communities, who have faced such persecution by the many enemy states that have surrounded them since 1948.

Ted, To be honest, I don't know an awful lot ...

2012-11-19T23:17:37.415Z
Ted,

To be honest, I don't know an awful lot about Judaism. Indeed, even though I was raised as a Catholic, I don't really understand that faith either! Thus, I accept what you say about age-old Jewish religious aspirations to return to the Holy Land.

However, my point still stands. There was no large-scale attempt by Jews to return to the lands of their ancestors until the Zionist movement was founded. Even then, most Jews stayed put or immigrated to the USA when faced with persecution. In any event, the notion that an ethno-religious group has the right to return to lands from which their ancestors left or were expelled over a thousand years beforehand seems like madness to me.

That being said, I agree that this discussion has been very heated to say the least. I know people are upset and angry about the terrible civilians casualties being inflicted in Gaza, but I think that using inflammatory language is more likely to close minds rather than open them.

Sean; why let the truth get in the way of a good o...

2012-11-19T22:12:39.149Z
Sean; why let the truth get in the way of a good oul yarn though?

This biblical nonsense we're force fed by zionists, their supporters and apologists is sickening. It's on a par with their anti-Semitic hysteria.

High Arka; great analogy.

Comments on The Pensive Quill: Truth and Lies in Gaza

This Christmas, Let's Remember, Jesus Was A Palestinian

High Arka, And Kentucky Baptists are a bad lot – ...

Alfie If I had been a Jew in the 1930s and 40...

Ted, I am fascinated by the response of Irish ...

Belfast Bookworm, The ratio of deaths is some...

Unfortunately, the U.S. owns the U.N. Decades of v...

Israel will act like the bastard state it is as lo...

Anthony. They are inviting more rockets to be fir...

The Israeli state extending the settlements. It is...

Ryan; Cable TV? Yeah and this is run off the 24/...

@Ryan. I have to say you are spot on. Palestine w...

My Gaza is a rough concentration camp. I see the p...

High Arka if you think like this Whatever st...

Alfie a cara "the wests awake" as far as...

Ted, Sorry for not getting back to you sooner. Ap...

Just returned from a rally in belfast city centre ...

:D

tfolkman: "Sean Bres: You don't know wha...

tfolkman there is indeed a very popular poem and s...

Tfolkman; yes. There is such a song. It's call...

Alfie, I would love, by the way, to learn somethin...

Alfie, while I don't agree with you, the open-...

When debating such a heated and important issue on...

Ted, To be honest, I don't know an awful lot ...

Sean; why let the truth get in the way of a good o...