Comments on The Pensive Quill: No Choice But to Take It: RFE interview with Richa...

Robert Very good. I hope to laughing at it all fr...

2013-08-27T01:41:47.100+01:00

Robert

Very good. I hope to laughing at it all from afar soon enough.

Larry, As you can no doubt deduce from the commen...

2013-08-26T21:21:04.278+01:00

Larry,

As you can no doubt deduce from the comments here, it's 'grouse season' for the loyalists any time they feel ready. You have indeed proved to be personally 'above it' Robert and I salute you for that (Benny Hill style).

A funny thought, but the exchange, which I enjoyed, has left me equating you more with 'Wee Jackie' Benny's diminutive sidekick!

Mackers Correct. It is a mental struggle that I i...

2013-08-26T16:59:39.929+01:00

Mackers

Correct. It is a mental struggle that I intend not ever to have to face.

'The Goulding analogy does not work. It failed because Goulding offered no defence and believed the unionists combatants would listen to their working class brethren on the nationalist side'.

And yet having learned nothing SF are 'leading' everyone to a border poll un-defended and I assume in the confidence that the Brits/RUC will be honourable in implementing its outcome should it be favourable to them. Dear oh dear! Like they did the Patton report..?

I do feel in the event that the Prods will react as anticipated and like the Brits after their latest global atrocity, Irish republicans will react with equally fake shock, insisting that they never saw it coming.

Bit of a 'banker' mind-set all round lol.

If and when it does come to pass, I will be far, far, away, thank heavens.

It was a tangent begun by Robert's highlighting the assertion that the unionists suffered terribly, and it got way out of hand. Unionists suffered minutely in proportion to their financial gain in Northern society. It is something I suspect they long to have back again. Crocodile tears to my mind.

Larry, I think there has to be a moral different...

2013-08-26T16:21:56.435+01:00

Larry,

I think there has to be a moral differential between methods we oppose and the methods we use to express our opposition. Otherwise we just become the same as that we claim to oppose.

The main point you make is that massacres are never justified. That leads onto the strategic question of what to do.

Kingsmill might have made a difference in a local setting but we can't really know that because we do not know how many Protestants it drove into the ranks of the UVF in Portadown and elsewhere. If Bloody Sunday had that effect on young nationalists why wouldn't its counterpart in Whitecross have the same effect on young unionists? Moreover, the Belfast IRA killed considerably more Protestants than South Armagh during the 74-76 period and produced what?

The Goulding analogy does not work. It failed because Goulding offered no defence and believed the unionists combatants would listen to their working class brethren on the nationalist side.

The argument being made against your case is not premised on Goulding's misunderstanding of unionism or its failure to provide defence. It is based on a very simple position - non combatants are not to be targeted.

On on ehand you seem to accept that but on the other you fear that in accepting it the loyalists gain the upper hand. It is a tension only you can solve in your own mind.

mackers we can talk around in circles forever. I&...

2013-08-26T15:46:08.981+01:00

mackers

we can talk around in circles forever. I've debated this 'myself' in circles here 'til I can make out the shape of an Australian customs official in the distance below me. I am no closer to an answer.

There is no justification for massacres. Possibly why the Brits don't attempt to do so. But the Brits do see them as a useful and effective necessity. I do just wonder will it take some of their own never-ending medicine to 'shock' the Brits out of the habit.

As I say, no one has the answer. A point I think proven here by the lack of debate offered. But the Brits will continue to value and deploy the tactic as long as it is effective and people are foolish enough to believe that their fictitious enquiries and fake shock and surprise are remotely genuine.

Republicanism has no answer to a population that detests everything Irish. So it should reflect upon that reality.

Why is it ok for them, the Brits, but not others? Simple question. No doubt we are back to morals.?

Larry, I really don't think the Brits are...

2013-08-26T15:30:54.171+01:00
Larry,

I really don't think the Brits are hiding from anything. They investigate
themselves and find nothing.

And your point is?

You merely reinforce the critique of your own position which is one of defending the mass slaughter of a civilian population. That is why the Brits find in their own favour, find that they don’t slaughter civilians when they do – and here we have you advocating what even they won’t defend and which they have to call by some other name.

Again, my advice to all young men, stay the hell away from republican groups, they don't have the answer.

Whatever the merits it adds nothing to your defence of war crimes.

BTW Mackers check out the 1641 depositions, pure ...

2013-08-26T13:26:07.359+01:00
BTW Mackers

check out the 1641 depositions, pure black propaganda for the Cromwell invasion and genocide in Ireland

more recently the dodgy dossier Iraq, blatant lies for the facilitation of war in Iraq.

and here is your typical investigation into more recent inquiries in Iraq and the Danny Boy massacre and murders in captivity there.

"Their investigation lasted 10 months, involved the interviewing of over 150 British personnel and 50 Iraqi nationals, and found no evidence to support these allegations".

I really don't think the Brits are hiding from anything. They investigate themselves and find nothing.

Again, my advice to all young men, stay the hell away from republican groups, they don't have the answer.

Mackers Whitecross prevented any further 'eff...

2013-08-26T13:14:43.951+01:00
Mackers

Whitecross prevented any further 'effusion of Catholic blood' in S Armagh. (to quote Cromwell)The Brits have been at it for some time huh?

My point is that the holier than thou, head in the sand, position has never worked. I don't know the answer to their tactic, perhaps there is none. But like Goulding and Johnson before and SF today, wishful thinking will not prevent the tactic being redeployed later on, IMHO.

Republicans should consider that before embarking on another (Christ help us) campaign of agitation and confrontation.

Their strategy will lead, via the scenic route of death and mayhem, to them holding hands with the Chie of Colonial police at Stormont. Best just go 'route one'. Mc Guinness has led the way.

Larry, you know what they say when you dig a hole...

2013-08-26T13:04:14.832+01:00
Larry,

you know what they say when you dig a hole!

I am under no illusion about what the Brits do. The point being made, which you seem not to grasp, is that even they cannot defend the actions you are defending - taking out a civilian population for slaughter. They have to cover it up, explain it away as something else. You make no attempt to do that and merely advocate murder of non combatants. So, no point in getting irritated when that position is challenged.

What people did the non combatants of Whitecross kill and what did any of them do that would justify their slaughter? When you give me something concrete on that I will concede you have a point.

Mackers 'It also puts you in a position where...

2013-08-26T12:44:28.827+01:00
Mackers

'It also puts you in a position whereby the logic of your argument can be used to butress events like Bloody Sunday. Even the Brits don't go down that road any longer'.

Mackers you need to get out of your bedroom more often ffs, what planet are you currently living on?? Jesus wept and you are an academic!

Think I wrote an article for this blog a while back on a massacre by a Scots regiment in Malaya in the 'Emergency' there in 1948?

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2012/may/06/britain-batang-kali-massacre-malaysia

Then there was Bloody Sunday in Derry and more recently the Danny Boy incident in Iraq where twenty plus men and boys were rounded up in a truck and taken away and murdered by British troops.

http://www.theguardian.com/uk/2008/feb/23/military.iraq

Think you will find the Brits most certainly do continue the practice and not just via drug fuelled, armed, supplied and military intelligence directed murder gangs, but with regular troops as official policy.

YES my throwing the argument out there is more designed to force debate and a rational addressing of what is a military tactic, (first tactic) in most conflicts by the Brits.

To live in denial of the fact is the ostrich option. (Goulding + Johnston 1968) Until an effective way to combat this preferred Brit/loyalist tactic in any future conflict is addressed, failure is guaranteed.

The same security forces that Catholics were telephoning after their families were murdered had in many cases directed the killers to their target in the first place.

I am not any longer republican as it happens. That political notion was a failure from its conception and is a failure now before it is even resurrected today by all those lost political souls left in the wake of the piss-process. I have better things to do with my time than to perpetually work myself up to another lamentable failure.

In reverse of your Whitecross assertion regarding hun recruitment, ill say this to any young nationalists.

When the prods don't like what's going on here down the road (and they wont) and they start killing people again (and they will) stay the hell away from republican groups because they will offer absolutely nothing in response while your relatives are being murdered by official and unofficial state forces.

Republicanism is a dead duck.

Larry, all these arguments you manage to turn in ...

2013-08-26T08:28:02.643+01:00
Larry,

all these arguments you manage to turn in on yourself. The elitist attitude is to be found in the stance that there are some people who can't stand on the pantheon with the truly elite and are therefore unworthy of the same rights. In all of this you have yet to put a case for gunning down unarmed non combatants either ethically or strategically.

It also puts you in a position whereby the logic of your argument can be used to butress events like Bloody Sunday. Even the Brits don't go down that road any longer.

One reason it might be important to get the loyalist history out is that it might shed some light on how many actually joined the UDA/UVF and went on to kill non combatants themselves as a result of Whitecross.

Does anyone really want to subscribe to a republicanism that wants to slaughter civilian populations?

While I tend not to feel you are being totally serious in what you say, more just throwing the argument out there and shocking people into responses, there are readers who are not going to see that and think there is no moral difference between some republicans and the Paras.

Simon,

I guess many of us go through our lives with the Orwell sentiment in mind - we want to be good but not too good and not all the time - but there are some things so far off the moral radar that we don't consider them: genocide, infanticide, rape. I think that is what keeps us ordinary and it is an ordinariness that we call upon for fortitude when the Nazi 'extraordinary' elite types come along and concoct some scheme and rationale for gassing the Jews.

Agh republicans, those moral elite who would stand...

2013-08-26T07:45:34.332+01:00
Agh republicans, those moral elite who would stand resolute whilst watching the slaughter of their relatives and neighbours. What political fortitude they represent.

All subjective 'tazering' of poor Robert aside, if I ever embark upon a political career I'll avoid a republican party for sure. I'd never measure up.

As we know it takes quite some character to be elected with a landslide in places like county Louth. Should I ever reach such dizzy heights of moral fibre I'll take the advice of another iconic example of republican credibility, Bertie Ahern, and 'top myself'.

Robert

As you can no doubt deduce from the comments here, it's 'grouse season' for the loyalists any time they feel ready. You have indeed proved to be personally 'above it' Robert and I salute you for that (Benny Hill style).

If you kill civilians just because of their religi...

2013-08-26T00:59:30.406+01:00
If you kill civilians just because of their religion that's called sectarianism.

Kingsmill was a disgrace. An eye for an eye leaves everyone blind. I wouldn't refer to all killings as murder but killing someone just because of their religion is just that.

Uninvolved non-combatants, guilty of nothing but their religion. All the PIRA's purposely sectarian killings were by definition murder.

The loyalists with their sectarian hatred are a lesson in what not to become. I am reading Henry Patterson's "Ireland's Violent Frontier" at the minute and his analysis of ethnic cleansing along the border doesn't stand up to scrutiny. But reading these comments above, I find myself discovering a world of sectarianism my Republican friends wouldn't countenance. Perhaps the revisionists are too convincing in their arguments and leading people to believe it was all about religion?

Robert Everyone suffered terribly. It is my vie...

2013-08-25T20:51:52.425+01:00
Robert

Everyone suffered terribly.

It is my view that the IRA inaction against loyalist indiscriminate attacks betrayed their stated position as defenders of the Catholic population.

The only people who can toss away the victory for unionism now are the Orangemen and UVF who quite incredibly seem intent on doing exactly that.

Maybe they have nothing to get out of bed for in the mornings these days, except for their signing on days. The old 'security' industry being no more perhaps leaves them out of pocket and out of options.

Long may it continue, but if not, then hopefully they will pay a very high price for starting things up again.

Larry, 'I'm merely stating in response to...

2013-08-25T17:29:59.691+01:00
Larry,

'I'm merely stating in response to Robert's assertion that the huns suffered terribly..'

It was Richard's assertion - I merely quoted him.

Itsjustmacker, 'From you , The word "Fla...

2013-08-25T17:20:34.931+01:00
Itsjustmacker,

'From you , The word "Flattery" says it all".
I'm surprised at someone like your self Pertaining to be Intelligent slipping "Flattery" into a reply.'

Lacking any coherence or relevance from the outset, your contribution has now simply dissolved into guff. A Sunday afternoon best spent not attempting to converse unconventionally with 'Madame Malaprop'.

Mackers I'm long since 'over' republi...

2013-08-25T16:42:11.455+01:00
Mackers

I'm long since 'over' republicanism. It is a dead political vehicle here. All I am saying is that in the event that the loyalists predictably reject democracy in the future and resort to indiscriminate violence against RCs and relatives of nationalist activists, that to refuse to address the issue would be a huge mistake AGAIN.

When an estate in Donacloney and a housing estate in Tyrone were bombed by the IRA in revenge for the RUC/UDR destroying hundreds of Catholic houses in search of the Lybian weapons it brought it home to the huns they could not expect to return home and put their feet up in front of the fire after a happy days wrecking in Newry and Twinbrook. Falsely 'looking for weapons' that their high grade intelligence undoubtedly knew were not there! The result of the bombings were no further whole-scale wanton destruction in RC areas.

Whitecross whilst involving lethal force had the same effect. Bobby Story once said Whitecross merely moved the hun killing elsewhere. Point proven? To an area too weak or too unwilling to confront it effectively?

It was common knowledge in N Armagh that when Billy Wright was contemplating standing for election in Portadown, over 8,000 people in his housing estate had signed a petition for him to leave the area!!

Sometimes needs must.

Larry, but it still does not answer the question ...

2013-08-25T16:24:58.618+01:00
Larry,

but it still does not answer the question of our indiscriminate targeting of Protestants through fascistic actions for no reason other than their religion. Are you saying it is wrong but we should do it anyway on the grounds of necessity? If so, do ends justify means? And after that is there no such thing as rights? And if there are no rights what is the republican struggle supposed to be about? How can republicans claim they oppose rights abuses if they have no respect for rights themselves? It only leads us into a situation where abuse of rights is not the problem but who the abuser is. When it is a Protestant abusing rights it is wrong but for Catholics it is right. That gap might well be one reason that republican ideas have not caught on.

Mackers I read that article. Painful reading. I ...

2013-08-25T16:13:01.734+01:00
Mackers

I read that article. Painful reading.

I just believe that in the face of fascism and indiscriminate targeting of RCs the huns got off way too light. Simple as that. Effectively given the go-ahead. And they promote themselves as the sole law abiding victims!

The weak are the targets, why encourage the bully as you said yourself?

'civilization has developed means of destruction that can only be used against those too weak to retaliate in kind, a large part of the appalling history of the post-World War II years'.

If you want peace arm to the teeth. AND BE PREPARED TO FIGHT FIRE WITH GREATER FIRE for as long as necessary. When the huns get ugly again (and they will)the RCs need to show them as Itsjustmacker has stated, 'it's not 1969 any more!

Larry, Might is right merely invites us to join t...

2013-08-25T15:55:51.788+01:00
Larry,

Might is right merely invites us to join the strong against the weak.

But we were the ‘fascists’ in lining up a civilian population for the purpose of killing them. How do we address the question of our own ‘fascism’ if it is fascism you are opposed to, rather than just ‘prod fascism.’ I imagine fascism is wrong because it is fascism and not ok if Franco approves it.

The real cowardice is to be found in abiding by fascism rather than in confronting it.

Mackers Yet those nations that won those conflict...

2013-08-25T15:39:57.767+01:00
Mackers

Yet those nations that won those conflicts continue to dominate the globe today. Just saying that whilst of course you are correct, the image in the H-Blocks of the grim reaper tramping over catholic dead and a script saying 'kill them all let God take care of them' isn't something to be tolerated out of moral superiority. Our dead wont thank us for the morality of our cowardice in the face of prod fascism.

No easy answer. And of course you are right to fear judicial consequences, as a certain loser that would be your fate.

As coincidence may have it, the following piece ju...

2013-08-25T14:29:21.500+01:00
As coincidence may have it, the following piece just came through on the Alternet list. Something

Maybe they are spying on us and are trying to shape the debate! Haven't read it, just looked at the title but it might be of use to somebody

Larry, nor would I want you under my command in a...

2013-08-25T14:25:36.596+01:00
Larry,

nor would I want you under my command in any conflict because with corporate responsibility I would be tried for your acts.

That perps try to justify their actions would hardly amount to those actions being right. The perps that tried justifying Vietnam, Cambodia, Bloody Sunday, Dresden have all tried rowing back. Bomber Harris had the blame for the WW2 carpet bombing of Germany shifted onto him and was subsequently something of a pariah in the post war British society. It became useful to distance him and make him a scape goat to whom all the sins could be passed.

Kissinger can't enter some countries for fear of arrest over his war crimes.

So, we either stand for war crimes or against them. Your logic of a collective punishment for the acts of individuals or smaller groups was applied against civilians by the Nazis during WW2. Can we say it was right just because it made sense to the German military?

mackers Dresden, Hiroshima, Nagasaki, the Belgran...

2013-08-25T13:01:25.410+01:00
mackers

Dresden, Hiroshima, Nagasaki, the Belgrano, Bloody Sundays (plural and global) the list is endless and the perpetrators see it as an historical and successful tactic. My point is the same. The fear in the USA and GB today is that some marginalised group may perpetrate a fraction upon them of what they have exported globally.

Good guys get their ass kicked. I would not want to be under your command in any conflict. Good job you are very old and I'm a nifty-fifty.

Unionism in my opinion will resort to violence again sooner rather than later and perhaps well in advance of any utopian SF border poll. Should nationalists resort to the 'good fight' you promote AGAIN then the result will be the same AGAIN.

Or perhaps MH and SF will talk democracy into them.

I'm merely stating in response to Robert's assertion that the huns suffered terribly that if they don't suffer a hell of a lot more in any future conflict which THEY will certainly incite, then the result will be the same.

All those trying to resurrect republicanism should take up trainspotting instead. It would ultimately prove more rewarding.

If the loyalists designate the entire RC community legitimate targets in any future conflict then they should be forced to defend their families behind their own backs in kind. Merely my opinion.

Larry, context is always alibi for the purpose of...

2013-08-25T12:22:25.649+01:00
Larry,

context is always alibi for the purpose of either pretending that a crime was not committed or distancing ourselves from them when they are. Context is never a given but is always a construct. Citing context amounts to nothing unless the person you cite it to agrees that the context described is correct.

In war there is a category that exists for breaches of war protocol. It is called war crimes.

Legitimate grievances do not in unmediated fashion convey legitimacy onto all actions to redress those grievances. Otherwise anything would go.

There were no rapists killed at Whitecross. If somebody rapes us we don't rape his children or his friends. We deal with the rapist because he, not those of the same religion as him, is guilty of rape.