Comments on The Pensive Quill: Dis/topia [sic]ness

Westie, I know you hope at some point that somet...

2010-02-21T18:05:51.558Z

Westie,

I know you hope at some point that something the rest of us can't foresee might happen that would lead to a united Ireland. But do you not feel that the only way you see it happening - through persuading enough unionists - is blocked by the current SF leadership? The unionists are totally suspicious of being brought anywhere near a UI by this leadership. Paul Bew wrote an interesting piece on how this impacts on unionism. It seems there will be little in the way of genuine rapprochement between the unionists and a community that elects what unionists see as a party fronted by a particularly vile individual.
As for calling you a reformist - it is not thrown at you in an accusatory sense. I totally distrust revolutionaries. Orwell made the point that 9 times out of 10 a revolutionary is a social climber with a bomb. So it probably makes me a reformist as well. I don't see any republican solution to the issue of partition. I just resile from SF supporting the partition principle and then claiming they are republican. Why not just state that the republicanism they once stood for has been abandoned and all they are left with is a verbal republicanism which they for years lambasted and berated Fianna Fail for having?
There won't be a united Ireland in your life time, or mine or either of our children's lifetimes. My youngest is 4 and he will never see a united Ireland. Blair made that very clear when he spoke in Belfast a few years ago - not even the youngest child in the room would see a UI was what he assured everyone. The fact is that there is nothing strategic to contradict him.

'I believe that, because circumstances in this world can change relatively quickly, by one-off events, by changing economics, softening of some mindsets, hardening of others. So I don't rule it out at all.'
That logic could see England unite with France or all Ireland come under British rule. There is actually nothing there.
Down here the North is not an issue. And you are right - they see it as if it was a world apart. But one reason for that is they can't believe a word that is said by SF. As Nuala Perry points out the party leader is viewed as a serial liar. That is not thrown around for the sake of a put down. Willie O 'Dea fell for less.
Contrary to what you say the war was fought to secure a British withdrawal. That was non negotiable. What was negotiatiable was the timeframe. Now SF has accepted the British terms for being here all along - consent principle.

I think you need to revisit the strategic evidence available that would lend great support to the view that there is a Brit state strategy to incorporate SF into the system. It is not just coincidental.

Westie, I know you are genuine in what you believe...

2010-02-21T13:00:15.810Z

Westie, I know you are genuine in what you believe, however, Gerry Adams is a particularly vile individual and I do not say that lightly. To be honest I would say most of the contributors to Mackers blog shared your beliefs and aspirations at some times in our lives,until most of us realised it was all hot air.
In relation to your comments about people on the dole having better lifestyles than workers. Maybe that is the case I genuinely do not know. However what I do know is there are a lot of individuals at the fore of Sinn Fein who have accumulated excessive amounts of money and they have never worked in their lives. One of our own home grown Clonard entrepreneurs owns countless houses, flats and the odd downtown bar and had the audacity to give lectures on Che up until last year. How can these people give lectures on a man who had everything and sacrificed it all?
Westie why does their hypocrisy not bother you?
Like yourself I worked all of my life. Also like yourself I would not choose to have it any other way. However, some times we have to get real about these people.

Fionnuala Glad we got it straight about the immig...

2010-02-19T22:24:17.383Z

Fionnuala

Glad we got it straight about the immigrant issue - I am trying to introduce some of the kids into Gaelic sports and they show more potential than some of the locals - think it comes down to the fact that they appreciate having a football whereas some of our own think a ball is for losers in comparison with their new gadgets!!

On the point of Gerry A, there is obvious loyalty to a man who many many people still associate with the history of the Republican Movement during the latest phase of the struggle and the development of a legitimate and very successful political arm of what those same people believe to the the genuine Republican Movement in Ireland. I know most on here will jump on that statement but that is my opinion on why he is what he is, and his mandate in West belfast may well increase in this election - I personally hope that is the case. (Don't hit the machine!)

Anthony, I know you keep calling me a reformist and maybe you're right - I haven't studied the definitions enough to argue for or against.

What I do know about myself is that I have lived all my life with the same aspiration from about 9 or 10 years of age as I do today. If I hint in my writing from time to time that i don't believe there will be a united Ireland, that is somewhat misleading - I genuinely do think there is a chance that it will happen, and perhaps in my lifetime. I believe that, because circumstances in this world can change relatively quickly, by one-off events, by changing economics, softening of some mindsets, hardening of others. So I don't rule it out at all.

What has changed is my views on the armed conflict as a means of pursuing or progressing that objective. I have said before that I thought the armed struggle was legitimate and moreover necessary in the face of the onslaught in the late sixties, it developed more into military war in the seventies and early eighties and lasted a fair bit longer, and theoretically could still be going nowadays. But the war was never the 'end game', it was a phase, like many other generational phases of revolution beforehand which was aimed at forcing the Brits to leave. The decision to end this phase was, imo, the right one and what I see as Sinn Féin's raison d'etre now is to pursue unity through whatever means possible. For me, if sharing power with other Irish men, albeit from a polar political perspective, helps over a decade or two, as opposed to having English people running our daily affairs, I will go with this, at least for a period of time. I still want us to campaign and hassle the british government at every opportunity about their unacceptable presence in our country and I think more needs to be done in the 26 to reinvigorate the quest for irish Unity in every corner of the island. I must say, I get very frustrated when having converstaions about the North on my travels throughout Ireland when it feels like you are talking about a political conflict on the other side of the world.

And finally, when i referred to the dole, perhaps I had in mind the many people I know who are on every benefit going, get a lot of other subsequent things paid for, and as a consequence, are actually much better off than those of us out trying to earn enough to pay the bills. That said, I wouldn't swap one for the other, ever, and I would never criticise them, I need to tap them for a pint at the end of the month!

i just don't agree the line that SF, more than anybody else is being set up financially by the brits to suit their agenda. There's money in the pot and SF have always been good at getting it's share through community projects etc long before ceasefires or Armani suits.

I long for unity amongst republican minded people - and it is the mind in all of this which is most important - maybe then, Irish Unity will become the focus of all our attention.

Slán

Westie

Fionnuala if I may in ref to your last question ,I...

2010-02-19T17:46:26.491Z

Fionnuala if I may in ref to your last question ,I quote MLK,"Nothing in the world is more dangerous than sinscere ignorance and conscientious stupidity

Westie, Genuinely apologise for taking you ...

2010-02-19T15:38:56.360Z

Westie,
Genuinely apologise for taking you up wrong in relation to the immigrants. I really thought you meant that these people were part of the problem. Just would like you to answer me one question in relation to Sinn Fein. Why do they have a man who has been exposed over and over again as a serial liar as their leader? Mr Adams has been wriggling and squirming on a variety of different hooks for months and yet, apparently, his popularity has risen amongst his supporters, WHY?

well comrade Mick ,the great bearded one has proph...

2010-02-19T13:23:39.770Z

well comrade Mick ,the great bearded one has prophesied a united Ireland by 2016.I have established that Easter Sunday in that year falls on the 27th March, so I have provisionally penciled in Monday 28th around 11.30 am,bring a big piece with you, and no I dont mean weapons ,cheese and onion should do nicely,as for a hgv licence never worry about that a few of us drove buses in 69 and we didnt have licences fuck we didnt even work for the bus company

marty Now about that tank, you must know I have n...

2010-02-19T10:24:47.991Z

marty

Now about that tank, you must know I have no HGV licence and now due to your thoughtful suggestion I may fall victim to Gerry's Harriers. All is not lost, a very helpful young lady at my Job centre plus told me there is a company which trains tank drivers whilst on the job, apparently they are based in a place called Helmand, although sadly it does not seem to come up on my Tom Tom. But no worries I am still on the case and with a little perseverance I will be available to carry out the task in question, if you could let me know the date and time you will need me.

If it wasn't for you Westie this debate would ...

2010-02-18T22:25:10.760Z

If it wasn't for you Westie this debate would not be as vigorous as it is.

You must feel like I used to at SF meetings - surrounded by opinions at variance with your own. Still, you fight your corner. And unlike in SF different opinions are welcome.

I know you were not being anti-immigrant when you made your point. However, you weakened your argument when you referred to the dole. That is the defence of last resort, only ever to be used when nothing else is left. People who out of economic necessity take the dole can hardly be equated with those who have been incorporated into the state system or the economy for political reasons.

What you say is right - people in SF take jobs because they might wish to help their communities or improve the economic situation of their families. But at another level the widespread insertion of such a body of people into the economy fits easily into counter insurgency strategies. Kevin Bean wrote an excellent book on this. It helps give the British state the result it wants.

Furthermore you seem to realise yourself that there will be no united Ireland. You seem to be a reformist advocating a reformist strategy. That's fine but why not accept that instead of dressing it up as republican? A reformist strategy that does not kill is better than a republican one that does. So, I would have no problem with you being a reformist. Just don't see the need to present it as republican.

Hi Mick, what you say is sound and I,d like to nom...

2010-02-18T20:30:26.966Z

Hi Mick, what you say is sound and I,d like to nominate you as an honorary Irishman, which means apart from buying loads a drink,come the revolution you can help drive the tank through the big house of capitalism

Westie, Why oh why, is the favoured word, "al...

2010-02-18T20:10:29.540Z

Westie, Why oh why, is the favoured word, "alternative". A great word when the back is to the wall. We had no alternative [but to surrender] what would you have done? But i ramble, alternative to ruc/psni. Mmmm, mabye instead of trying to currie favour with cathloics with a 50/50 police force,Investagate, catch, try, name, and jail all ruc/psni. personel involved in collusion, murder, false statements,turning a blind eye, etc etc. Mabye when that and more is done, there could be a small bit of trust as a stepping stone. DONT THINK SO

Westie, If parents do not take responsibility for...

2010-02-18T18:59:51.458Z

Westie,

If parents do not take responsibility for their children then it is surly better to ask why, rather than instinctively blame them, for if you simply go down that road, the next generation of parents is likely to be the same.

Many kids for a host of differing reasons have never had a parent as a role model who behaved in the manner you wish. Behaviour is learnt, we reap what we sow.

It is the same with the vandals/whatever, you call them scum, in reality they are your own or you neighbours kids. I remember once a working telling me the war on drugs should be supported, when I reminded him this war would be against our own kids, he became less keen.

Of course those with power, whether locally or nationally like nothing better than when we workers turn inwardly against each our own. As this place the blame for such things on the individual, and not the society which they oversee and absolves them of all responsibility.

Yes people most take responsibility for their own, but calling them scum is hardly going to encourage them to do so.

Fionnuala Just want to return on one point first ...

2010-02-18T18:29:02.067Z

Fionnuala

Just want to return on one point first of all.

I wasn't in any way blaming immigrants on anything. I was giving my opinion on what is different in terms of the sense of community from say, the seventies and eighties and nowadays.

I think our society is richer for having such different cultures so if you picked that up, that is not what was intended. I was talking more about the fabric of our communities in areas like Divis, Grosvenor, Clonard, Beechmount, Iveagh, St James, Whiterock, Balymurphy etc.

I do blame parental guidance a lot on this as I work with a lot of kids in sport and other activities and in a lot of cases, I despair at the lack of or absence of direction, guidance, sense of decency that appears to be prevalent. Then you have practically every home having at least one car, kids live in cyberspace, people lock their doors at night for fear of some of the scum roaming our streets. Hope this clarifies my refernce to imigrants, which I am happy to retract.

As for Brits still being here, I know that too well and I will live the rest of my life hoping and in any way I can, trying to change that.

if you recall, I was answering your question about how nationalists are better off and I was giving a list of things that, imo, are better for my kids than what I experienced. I hated seeing Brits with guns ion the streets and they no longer are. With regardtohousing, many of the old and elabitated houses / flats have been replaced with decent more modern housing, Beechnount being one example and that was very much a SF campaign for years.

I live in the same country ok and the same city and I am very proud of that fact.

Tru, I've seen your words written on the wall - I tend to disagree- things are changing, mainly through Personnel recruits and it is a start.

What would you have suggested as a realistic alternative to get rid of the RUC?

I'll send you that post card from Béal Féirste Thiar.

Slán

Westie

Westie, I hear the la...

2010-02-18T08:49:27.309Z

Westie, I hear the land of candy trees and soda pop rivers, can be nice at this time of year, please send us a postcard. The name may be changed, but its still a force that is loyal and royal in an occupied part of OUR country.

Westie, read your response and had to pinch myself...

2010-02-17T22:53:39.008Z

Westie, read your response and had to pinch myself. Seriously cannot believe that you can equate a person claiming benefits multiple or otherwise, which I am sure they are perfectly entitled to, to an organisation i.e. Sinn Fein that has allowed itself to be funded in part by Brit money. People who claim benefits are not subsidsed by the Brits. That is a ridiculous statement, the Brits occupy our country, which means our taxes go to the British exchequer who delves out the money accordingly.
In relation to jobs in these Sinn Fein centres, I worked in the very first one on the Falls Road. I worked extremely hard and never took a single penny. You seem to be missing the point in relation to Sinn Fein and the work they do!
Of course they work for the community, you cannot claim votes and big wages and then go and sit in the loo, although some of them would be better doing that. The point I was making was they are not a people party, they are power and money driven party,which means that essentially they are detached from ordinary people. You cannot live the lifestyle some of these people do and relate to ordinary people. It like oil and water they don't mix. You say you cannot blame Sinn Fein for the lose of community. You infact blame it on immigrants and irresponsible parenting. When Clonard was rebuilt, Sinn Fein sat as they do on all the relevant committees. Yet our area like many other areas was redesigned by the brits and police , their input was bought by regeneration money, their return was a guaranteed lose of community.
In relation to what you say about immigrants being part of the problem, to be honest I find it quite sad that have that type of a mind set. I really do not know if you are I are currently in the same country Westie, the Brits have not gone away, economically and politically they are more entrenched here than ever. We were bought lockstock and no smoking barrels. The Brits do not need to occupy our streets. MI5 sit in Palace Barracks, spying to their little hearts are content. "They haven't gone away you know" All this about things being easier and more equality in relation to jobs, I have always found it a nightmare to get a job, not because of my name but because I was an ex-prisoner. Just had a letter this morning to tell me my house insurance had been cancelled for the very same reason. Yeah we have really moved on!

Tru If the question was a serious one, i.e. not i...

2010-02-17T22:42:17.940Z

Tru

If the question was a serious one, i.e. not in jest! I think that the PSNI is already a very different organisation from the RUC, and what remains of the old guard will retire or leave within the next 5-10 years.

It isn't ideal but we needed rid of a poison force and Patton commenced that change. This type of change never happens overnight but it is change and the change will continue. Like every other society too, we need policing anf justice policies, processes and personnel.

Slán

Westie

Westie, ...

2010-02-17T09:06:54.425Z

Westie, Why are you so sure that the ruc/psni wont be here in a few years. Do we have another name change on the way?. Or mabye,like the kappo with a baton, or gun, or whatever,certain people, will police their own areas?

Fionnuala When you say they are well subsidised b...

2010-02-15T20:47:22.560Z

Fionnuala

When you say they are well subsidised by the brits, surely that applies to an awful lot of people in the North, including those who receive multiple social security benefits, or those who receive Legal Aid to defend people who can't afford to pay for representation. That will always be the case so long as partition remains in place.

I know there is a lot of ill feeling about who got jobs in Advice Centres or within SF generally but a lot of these people put a lot of hours into doing their job. I think of Councillors in West Belfast who are continually working on behalf of the people in their communities, be it for local facilities, to clean up certain areas, improve lighting and safety at night, and help local GAA or other sports clubs in their quest for equality of playing areas etc.

I agree with you about the sense of community we once had, a lot of which was possibly down to the seige mentality we rightly felt at that time. I don't accept partition for a second and don't recognise it in my life as an Irish person. I practice my culture, including language and sport like any other Irish person, in fact I think we in the north take it much more seriously than a lot of people in the 26 but that is what happens with time. Maybe it is Reform we are experiencing at this time, but who is to say that reform will not lead to a united Ireland some day through continuous campaigning that this is what we are about and by a generation of persuasion of the traditional unionist population in the North.

I don't blame SF for the decrease in that sense of community - I think it is much more complex than that and some of it is down to people being generally better off financially, the fact that there isn't an obvious struggle on the streets, the number of immigrants living in traditional republican areas, increased crime and lack of parental direction for a lot of our young people, and many more reasons.

Talking of which, benefits to Nationalists that I recognise nowadays from my own days growing up - the Brits aren't patrolling the streets, the RUC don't get away with calling kids all the Fenian B**tards of the day and brutalising them by night, in fact they barely exist and will be totally gone in the coming years, we have lots of funded Irish speaking schools and lots of jobs created as a result, such as teachers, class room assistants etc, children don't feel as if they need to risk jail or death, rather they can truly regard themselves as equals when it comes to pursuing their chosen career path, without having to worry about their name with a fada ruling them out of certain positions, Naionalist can speak openly about heir very nationalism and aspirations in the workplace, that certainly wasn't the case when I started work, and finally we have lots of improving sports and other youth facilities in our areas, albeit there is always room for more.

This will always raise the question of whether this all would have been achieved without the Republican struggle in the North and what this brought SF by way of their strength of hand in any negotiations with their opponents. Anthony made the point about what we have now as being seen as a sell out by any volunteer who died. I cannot dispute that position but times and situations move with the context, and I am fairly certain that, as with ex prisoners and ex volunteers, there would have been many of our fallen dead who would have followed the SF leadership and there would have been many who would have totally disagreed.

As a side issue, I think Rory's point about whether the Army was made up of Republican Revolutionaries or young nationalists who did what they had to do in the face of blatant oppression and bigotry is a very interesting historical point.

Slán

Westie

Westie, will all due respect. The SDLP do not have...

2010-02-14T21:54:27.727Z

Westie, will all due respect. The SDLP do not have advice centres in West Belfast, However, when Dr Hendron had his surgery down the Falls he was extremely helpful to local people on loads of community issues. No shinner has ever come near my home and asked any of us do we need help with anything, not an invitation by the way. They are well paid and extremely well subsidised by the Brits, to run classes, centres and whatever else they are told to run. People are worse off than ever, because our so called revolutionaries turned reformers or is it informers? I can never remember the proper term. Anyway these people have not produced one single reform that has helped their own people, our promised salvation turned out to be a conn. I once asked Eoin O' Brien during one of his rants about how much thay had improved peoples lives, they being the shinners, to name one improvement, sadly he could not.
When I was young there was a sense of community, people looked out for each other. Now all we have is a pack of useless politicans that are so detached form ordinary people, that it would be impossible for them to have genuine empathy or any understanding of their plight. It does matter that former revolutionaries turned community activists have feathered their own nests. It matters because they done it on the backs of their own peoples struggle. Personally I hope it all tumbles down round them, however, if you think they are worth voting for that is your choice. Just on a final point, the shinners are as Nationalist as the SDLP, politically you could not fit a fag paper between them.

Fionnuala I totally disagree with you about natio...

2010-02-14T18:35:40.180Z

Fionnuala

I totally disagree with you about nationalists not being better off now than we wee years ago.

I don't see how the issue of living lucrative lives has anything to do with it. There are many thousands of SF voters and actvists who live what some might describe as lucrative lives based on the fact that they have a decent paid job, they live in a decent house that they fully pay for, and they have three or four kids who have gone or are going through university.

Then you have a sizeable number of people who criticise these people but the same folk spend eight days out of seven drinking in pubs and clubs about the road - how they can afford it is beyond me.

Staffing advice centres and helping people in the community through form filling or wlking about streets at the weekend, or running day classes in all sorts of educational or vocational topics is a valuable contribution to Irish society and if it were such an easy job, how come the SDLP don't run as many of these things in our communities?

As I have said before, the party and all in it is not perfect but imo they are much better than the rest and I hope our vote continues to hold, if not rise.

Slán

Westie

Marty, thought you were spreading the bed with ros...

2010-02-14T16:58:20.843Z

Marty, thought you were spreading the bed with rose petals for Marie?
You should not be inciting things such as putting people against a wall and shooting them on St Valentines day. Although it worked somewhere before, which is more than can be said for the rose petals if your back at the computer already?

Seán Mór, This is my own simple definition of a r...

2010-02-14T16:41:41.198Z

Seán Mór,

This is my own simple definition of a republican. Someone who believes in a 32 county independent Irish Republic and is prepared to work to towards it by any practical means necessary.

The home rulers, the SDLP, Cumann na nGaedheal and many others were nationalist but not republican since they were happy to compromise on some type of devolved government or partition or both.

This is just my definition and it is open to correction.

Rory

fuck that Fionnuala thats just pussyfutting put ...

2010-02-14T16:13:57.093Z

fuck that Fionnuala thats just pussyfutting put all the fuckers against the wall, and we ain got no shortage of walls that those fuckers helped create

well Sean if I may , Iadhere to the republican pr...

2010-02-14T16:09:24.757Z

well Sean if I may , Iadhere to the republican principles of Tone Emmet and the united Irishmen their aims and aspirations are how I define my republicanism,I try to regard myself as a socialist republican following the lead of Connolly and Mac Diarmada.I to can find no difference between Irish nationalist or Irish republican

I still cannot believe that there are people who a...

2010-02-14T16:00:18.814Z

I still cannot believe that there are people who are saying Sinn Fein are a peoples party. Just because their so called activists are doing what they are paid for, giving a bit of advice and filling in a few forms that entitles them to call themselves a party of the people.The Brits helped create those advice centres to do just that, do you thing they are going to risk their slice of Brit money by not doing their quota. In reality their allegiance to their own people has been dire, Sinn Fein have been quite happy to sit on committees which have put the boot into ordinary people, they have been party to all the rate hikes, the were at the fore in signing up to water charges. One Sinn Fein representative is paid a sizeable sum to sit on a panel in the Royal hospital £10,000 (The same amount paid to Big G to walk on water in the Holy Lands)which has been a contributory factor in the closure of many wards. Many of there activists live pretty lucrative lifestyles, unlike the poor misguided individuals who vote for them. On a last point I am old enough to dispute the fact that we are now better off than we previously were. I agree with Mackers if you want to vote for a partitonist party, vote SDLP, at least their leader has a degree of credibility.

Interesting discussion, Rory. In relation to repub...

2010-02-14T15:13:27.188Z

Interesting discussion, Rory. In relation to republicanism, and specifically Irish republicanism, I think we sometimes assume that the term has some clear, innate and pure meaning and we are constantly then using this assumption to say 'this person is a republican, this person is not a republican'. I think that everyone who uses the term Irish republican should be forced to define it first, or give his particular definition, and then enlighten us as to who is or who is not a republican by that particular yardstick. Sometimes people say they are not Irish nationalists, but they are Irish republicans, and for the life of me I'm not convinced they are necessarily different things, depending on one's definition of nationalism I suppose.

So for someone like myself who has supposedly been an Irish republican since about 1980, it would be nice to hear what exactly people think a republican is?