Comments on The Pensive Quill: Hate TV

John, 'I would rather a smaller Church of peo...

2011-03-30T19:42:30.091+01:00

John,

'I would rather a smaller Church of people who do believe than a larger one of those who don’t.

And have so many alienated from what you regard as a loving god?

'These are both religious fraternities, certainly not sects.'

The difference escapes me

‘The really strange thing would be if God could become man, and found a Church, yet no-one would ever know what He taught because He could not protect that Church from error.’

Point is he didn’t protect it from error.

John, ‘I have to admit I was going to get that bo...

2011-03-24T13:17:50.669Z

John,

‘I have to admit I was going to get that book by Robertson, but when I read parts of it in the bookshop it just did not seem to be a serious work.’

It is a very serious work. Polemical surely but no less serious for that. Have a look at the Terry Eagleton review of it. Eagleton is no card carrying atheist. He is a big critic of Dawkins.

‘On doing some research since then I have learned that much of what Robertson claims is similar to the scurrilous attacks on Benedict XVI, of Christopher Hitchens, well and truly refuted here; http://www.catholiceducation.org/articles/apologetics/ap0329.htm’

Read the book if you fancy and make your call after that. Whatever you decide after that is fair game.

‘Talking of Hitchens have you read his brother’s book, ‘The Rage against God.’ It is well worth a read.’

Will make a note of it. Have a few Hitchens ones to read. Finished his God is Not Great one quite some time ago and need to put a review together for TPQ.

‘Sometimes you confront me with things I can hardly believe I wrote.’

I know that feeling.

We try to restrain no one. We hope that civility finds its own level. People can be as sharp as they like with each other but name calling and ranting is a waste of time. When Michaelhenry can hack it with all his critics something has been achieved. He is as much a part of it now as the rest of us.

John, I read the BBC piece you pasted in about cl...

2011-03-19T19:57:51.039Z

John,

I read the BBC piece you pasted in about clerics abusing kids in Pakistan. There seemed to be little difference there between the mullahs and the priests.

‘if he doesn’t like the teaching of the Catholic Church, he knows where the door is.’

I would imagine it is his right to try and change it rather than being forced out of it. He has a right to speak and the Church has no right to censor him.

‘Whilst I hope that this priest opposes child abuse, I believe his policies, and those of priests like him, have led to it.’

I would say the institutional protection afforded to abusers was infinitely more responsible for child abuse than the actions of this priest merely expressing his opinion about sexuality.

‘Yes, I was harsh’

True. You were also demeaning.

‘but the time for mealy mouthed liberalism is over in my view.’

He defended a human right which can’t be dismissed as ‘mealy mouth liberalism.’

‘For too long we have listened to priests like him, and their approval of homosexuality flies diametrically opposed to the natural law, family life, society, and the Catholic Faith.’

For too long priests like him haven’t been listened to. They have been censored. If he flies in the face of Catholic prejudice, fine. Something needs to.

“But again it is Islam that I hate.”

‘I fully expect to be gaoled over my views on Irish freedom, Islam or homosexuality one day.’

Just as I might for blasphemy.

I agree, thank God for hypocrisy. It is when they take their religion seriously that they blow up buildings, chop off heads and practice paedophilia, all in imitation of or obedience to their 'prophet'.

The history of Islam is more complex than that. I think it is right to blame Qutb for a lot of it but not Islam in general.

If it is used in the sense of 'morally good' I am certain their are many tens of thousands of good Moslems.’

As many as there are good Catholics I imagine

‘The Pope, by the nature of his office, has to teach his flock.’

Let him. But he can’t prescribe for those not in his club. And the rules of his club should never be allowed to trump societal law.

John, ‘http://islam-watch.org/Amarkhan/pedophili...

2011-03-17T19:37:38.365Z

John,

‘http://islam-watch.org/Amarkhan/pedophilia-in-islam/pedophilia-islam.htm#Ch2’

Just glanced at the site John due to little time. I am no fan of any religion but feel there is a tendency to go over the top when it comes to Islam. The Bible can justify the murder of children, if I am not mistaken. Very few Catholics would practice it. It also clearly encourages violence against children entreating parents to use the rod on them.

‘Most Moslems would be horrified by the thought of it, but you will find it defended by many of its clerics.’

I haven’t read up on it but do not recall hearing any cleric justify it. I have no doubt that some of them like priests and rabbis engage in it but openly endorsing it is another matter.

‘Paedophilia within Islam is generally against girls, rather than boys’

How come if homosexuality is what lies behind the instances of clerical paedophilia?

‘But at the current rate of Islamic expansion, one that will all too soon be the dominant force in Europe.’

Political Islam is the problem not Islam per se. Give a religion state power then crucifixions and burnings will surely follow. They simply cannot stand others not living their lives outside the moral prescripts of the religious.

In reference to the 'gay marriage' debate,...

2011-03-06T16:03:13.213Z

In reference to the 'gay marriage' debate, I would agree with this from the Catechism.

2202 “A man and a woman united in marriage, together with their
children, form a family. This institution is prior to any recognition by public authority, which has an obligation to recognize it. It should
be considered the normal reference point by which the different forms
of family relationship are to be evaluated.”

And I would disagree!! It just means you agree with the catechism.

Nuala, ‘What is the grave injustice, the idea tha...

2011-02-25T13:39:33.245Z

Nuala,

‘What is the grave injustice, the idea that the child will not be reared in the modern nuclear family?’

This makes so much sense. The grave injustice is that bigotry/zeal/prejudice/religious opinion/macho bias, call it what you will, can prevent a child being brought up but two caring adults of the same sex.

If two Catholic priests were to bring up an abandoned child I think the opposition would be much more muted. It seems that gays per se are being targeted here.

Alfie,

'The only answer that makes sense to me is that there is no driver behind the wheel, that we are on our own and that we should do our best to make one anothers short lives here as happy as possible.'

Agreed. It is all about what makes sense. If god had a license in order to get behind the wheel, he has long since been disqualified.

John, Usual distinction, ‘hate the sin, love the ...

2011-02-16T09:28:58.312Z

John,

Usual distinction, ‘hate the sin, love the sinner.’

This is unpersuasive. It sounds so much the Iris Robinson attempt to conceal her hatred for a certain category of people. You don’t strike me as having a love for homosexuals particularly if you use terms like ‘degenerate’ to describe a person who merely asks for toleration and understanding.

‘The leaders of 1916 hated British oppression, and loved the idea of a free Ireland. The two are always together.’

It is a good point. I don’t like it but that doesn’t make it untrue.

‘I do not consider myself morally superior to them (gays). But I do maintain that if they are practising homosexuals, they are engaging in a lifestyle that is objectively wrong.’

But the term degenerate is one of strong moral opprobrium. Are those clerics like Sean Brady who sought to silence children not objectively wrong?

Marty,

‘its a pity baby p didn’t have them for parents.’

Agreed. I have to admit to having that feeling of Larry’s when I heard the news. But it is the conditioning we have gone through over the years. They say that people with rings in their ears laugh at people with rings in their noses. There is no compelling reason that I could conceive why they should not be allowed to bring the child up. It can be done. Two brothers could do it and no one would bat an eyelid. It is just this prejudice against homosexuality and the religious need to inflict punishment on them that has people screaming about this. On the other hand if there is sound material evidence that this is harmful to the child and not merely harmful to religious opinion, I would be willing to reconsider my views on it.

Anthony, "AM: ‘Hans Kung ...may be wrong in ...

2011-02-14T23:46:16.165Z

Anthony,

"AM: ‘Hans Kung ...may be wrong in so many things but he did the right thing there.’"

"JM: ‘Is it possible that you could be mistaken on this?’"'

'Would you accuse me of infallibility if I were to deny the possibility of error? !! Enjoyed that.'

I think we are all infallible at times. E.g. If I say 2 plus 2 equals 4, I am infallible. We are often infallible on a daily basis.

The really strange thing would be if God could become man, and found a Church, yet no-one would ever know what He tought because He could not protect that Church from error.

John, AM: ‘Hans Kung ...may be wrong in so many t...

2011-02-14T13:14:55.858Z

John,

AM: ‘Hans Kung ...may be wrong in so many things but he did the right thing there.’

JM: ‘Is it possible that you could be mistaken on this?’

Would you accuse me of infallibility if I were to deny the possibility of error? !! Enjoyed that.

Larry,

‘On the Elton john baby issue, it doesn't sit well with me. I may attract politically correct ire but it makes me squeemish.’

I found it odd myself. Elton John in charge of a dog never mind a child would cause me concern of some sort. But I would feel the same way if he was with a woman. He is so volatile and temperamental. Yet at the same time I see no reason for same sex couples not to have a child. If for example a man (use a woman if we wish) with a child from a straight relationship moves in with a gay partner and brings the child with him, there seems no reason that I can think of as to why that child should be removed from them.

‘People used to get pythons, monkeys and even lion cubs as pets, now it seems madona and wealthy rock stars are unfulfilled without a human child of their 'own'.

If indeed the motivation that would raise a serious question mark. But the less well off as well as the wealthy adopt children

Yip Anthony I hear you have a very gradualist appr...

2011-02-11T14:19:25.513Z

Yip Anthony I hear you have a very gradualist approach to things mo cara especially when its your shout! John mo cara you get the popes /priests etc you deserve,now I,m not saying here for one moment that you are in someway a bad person, but if you insist in believing in fairies/santa god, then surely con artists will be attracted to you like moths to the flame or should I say bees to the honey pot,and as we all know our older people are described as being vunerable because age has impaired their ability to act or defend themselves from rouges, now people who are brainwashed into strong religious faith must be vunerable and open to explotation from rouges especially if the same rouges have special priviliges within the state, amen mea culpa mea culpa

John, ‘The world is full of anti-Catholic journal...

2011-02-11T12:01:40.294Z

John,

‘The world is full of anti-Catholic journalists ready to pounce on and twist the least thing. It is very rare that they give a balanced view in their attempts to implicate the Pope.’

Reminds me of the SF howling after the Northern Bank robbery. It is very rare that the Church hierarchy give a straight answer or balanced view as to why so much went wrong on its watch. The instinct has been to cover up, smear and silence. What improvements have taken place were wrenched out of it.

‘imagine a Pope had actually abused a child. What a sickening thought. Do I think it has happened? No.’

I would say without doubt it has happened. Statistically, if say there are 2 out of every hundred priests who are abusers, and we count the number of popes, the chances of some pope having abused is high. Which one we can never say. If I am not wrong a Belgian cardinal was caught at it, admitted to it I fact. We can safely presume there are more. After all they are only priests with promotion. So it does not seem outlandish to feel some pope has been at it. I think it is much less likely that a future pope will have been at it than a past one.

‘If that were to happen, I imagine a process would be begun where
Cardinals would demand he should quit.’

I take the opposite view. I think they would move to silence criticism, go into denial, blame the journalists and the abused children, and get up to all the usual antics we have come to expect from them over the years. Only when there was no running away from it would they find some way of easing the pope out, even making him a saint. They are in the process of making JP2 a saint and given his record in mismanagement of the abuse cases this seems wholly inappropriate.

‘In fact, I believe we have had a series of rotten Popes since the death of Pius XII. I guess we get the Popes we deserve, the priests we deserve, the Republican leadership we deserve, the GAA we deserve.’

It’s all our fault then. You usually don’t sound so despairing.

‘All of these things indicate to me that we must be a pretty bad bunch all round both as Catholics, and patriots. If we want to get a holy Pope, holy priests, a fearless Republican leadership and a courageous GAA we need to improve ourselves and they will inevitably follow.’

Human nature produces it. It is our imperfect world. Those who seek perfection often end up trying to impose it with disastrous consequences. I guess it is why I have a gradualist approach to things now.

‘A Pope certainly has moral responsibility for wha...

2011-02-06T10:13:27.974Z

‘A Pope certainly has moral responsibility for what goes on in the Church, but he is very reliant on those below him providing the correct information to him.’

Sort of the king is alright. It is just his conniving advisors. Give out the CDF papers and we will have a much more rounded idea about the flow of info.

‘I don’t know of any judicial authority who would be able to try a Pope who is also the head of a Sovereign State.’

The Sovereign state one is a very dubious concept when applied to the Vatican or Holy See. There is so much stacked up against in terms of history and law. The process of becoming a state with the aid of Mussolini seemed to be an agreement that was not what they might call a ‘gentleman’s one.’ But interestingly, it is because the pope claims to be a head of a sovereign state that people like Geoffrey Robertson argue that he is more vulnerable to prosecution. I suppose we would need to know more about international law. Robertson gives what is an opinion. It cannot be regarded as definitive.

Have to go John. I am late for mass!!

Anthony, ‘If Vatican II was reversed I think we w...

2011-02-03T23:31:40.846Z

Anthony,

‘If Vatican II was reversed I think we would see a declining Catholic community.’

Would that necessarily be a bad thing? I would rather a smaller Church of people who do believe than a larger one of those who don’t.

‘Bishop Sandborn – he has been in more sects than a modern Trot!’

I’m not aware he has ever been in any sects. He is now, and always has been, as far as I know, a Catholic. He was a member of the Society of Saint Pius X, and was expelled in the early 80’s by Father (now Bishop) Williamson, (who has gained a degree of notoriety, and risks suspension himself). The reason for his expulsion was purely disciplinary and revolved around whether they should accept the 1962 Missal or the one in use up to the death of Pius XII. He then formed a similar society called the Society of Saint Pius V. These are both religious fraternities, certainly not sects.

‘Yet, my mother sent me in The City of God while in prison in the early 80s and I devoured it. She loved the writings of Agustine and Thomas Merton and would send them to me.’

Well you will be aware how long St Monica had to pray for her son, before he converted. Maybe it will pay off yet, :)

'I used to read lots of theology John. Around the time I read Augustine I read six (I think) volumes of Coplestone’s the History of Philosophy...'

I always enjoyed Fr Coplestone’s trouncing of Bertrand Russell in their radio debate. You can’t beat the good Jesuits, very few of them left, and Coplestone’s works are to be recommended.

‘… I would test my reading of it against John MacAreavey (the current bishop), a very scholarly guy, when he came in to say mass.’

I can’t comment on him as I have only seen him at Michaela’s Requiem Mass and don’t know him personally.

‘He would often throw me a teaser from the books– one day it was how did I rate Occam’s Razor!!’

Maybe he was hinting that you needed to shave!

‘That is the reason that I am so 'in hate'...

2011-02-03T21:11:26.480Z

‘That is the reason that I am so 'in hate' with the likes of Hans Kung and Owen O'Sullivan, because I believe that they, spurred on by a mistaken notion of the good, developed and shaped a Church which has given rise to these evils.’

I think the church is quite capable of giving rise to evils without the help of Kung or Sullivan. It was burning people at the stake long before these two appeared.

If Vatican II was reversed I think we would see a declining Catholic community.

Bishop Sandborn – he has been in more sects than a modern Trot!

‘In the words of St Augustine: "Since God is the highest good, He would not allow any evil to exist in His works, unless His omnipotence and goodness were such as to bring good even out of evil."’

But why would he bother? It resonates of the old ‘he left the fossils just to play tricks on us’. Sounds complete rubbish to me. The type of explanation to be pulled out when all else has failed.

Yet, my mother sent me in The City of God while in prison in the early 80s and I devoured it. She loved the writings of Agustine and Thomas Merton and would send them to me. I used to read lots of theology John. Around the time I read Augustine I read six (I think) volumes of Coplestone’s the History of Philosophy. He was a Jesuit so his work dealt with the theological issues. Much of it was complex to my mind but I would test my reading of it against John MacAreavey (the current bishop), a very scholarly guy, when he came in to say mass. He would often throw me a teaser from the books– one day it was how did I rate Occam’s Razor!!

For some reason my links don't often work, but...

2011-02-01T19:58:01.879Z

For some reason my links don't often work, but if you google
"sean murphy catholic cover-up 2001 full version" it should be the first hit.

Anthony, “‘… the most I have done is ask for evid...

2011-02-01T19:22:52.887Z

Anthony,

“‘… the most I have done is ask for evidence against the Pope’”

‘True.’

“‘which doesn't seem to be available.’”

‘Not so. You just choose not to deal with it or to ignore it. That is not to say the evidence would ever lead to a verdict against the pope but to deny it is not even there is simply wrong.’

I have to admit I was going to get that book by Robertson, but when I read parts of it in the bookshop it just did not seem to be a serious work, and I could not justify the £6.99 I would have to fork out to buy it, so will try to obtain it in the local library, (that is just the sort of book the protestant library boards are happy to stock).

On doing some research since then I have learned that much of what Robertson claims is similar to the scurrilous attacks on Benedict XVI, of Christopher Hitchens, well and truly refuted here;

http://www.catholiceducation.org/articles/apologetics/ap0329.htm

Talking of Hitchens have you read his brother’s book, ‘The Rage against God.’ It is well worth a read.

“‘the PQ 'yes-men' who act like clapping seals’”

‘I am not defending the people on this blog but they are not yes men.’

Sometimes you confront me with things I can hardly believe I wrote. It must have been during a heated exchange, I believe I only had one individual in mind, and was giving him a kind of ‘royal’ plural. By no means did I mean to impugn the average person who writes on your blog, let alone the above average.

‘Getting them to agree would be like herding cats. If they are saying yes I don’t know who they are saying it to. The whole lot of them have had a go at me for example on different things. That’s what we do.’

And long may it continue.

John I don’t think you need to come on this blog ...

2011-02-01T16:01:06.835Z

John

I don’t think you need to come on this blog to explain you are not a perv or an apologist who defends priests abusing kids. That you do is because of some of the invective that is at times hurled your way. There is nothing to suggest that you are not above reproach on these matters and are as free to debate on the same terms as the rest of us without having to explain yourself.

‘I don’t think the most I have done is ask for evidence against the Pope’

True.

‘which doesn't seem to be available.’

Not so. You just choose not to deal with it or to ignore it. That is not to say the evidence would ever lead to a verdict against the pope but to deny it is not even there is simply wrong.

‘the PQ 'yes-men' who act like clapping seals’

I am not defending the people on this blog but they are not yes men. Getting them to agree would be like herding cats. If they are saying yes I don’t know who they are saying it to. The whole lot of them have had a go at me for example on different things. That’s what we do.

Saint?MaryHedgehog

‘All ppl should be free to believe what they wish without some religious arsewipe trying to con/manipulate them into seeing things their way. Live it and shut your gob is my spirituality... I have seen the glare of religion shining in the orbs of those obsessed with converting others all me life and flee it.’

On of the problems I have with it too. Your comments on suffering and free will were straight to the point. The free will defence merely convinces me of the bunkum status of religion.

Anthony, ‘Not only am I opposed to this priest be...

2011-01-31T22:05:34.631Z

Anthony,

‘Not only am I opposed to this priest being censored I am uncomfortable with you labelling him a degenerate for expressing an opinion contrary to your own.’

Well, Anthony, if he doesn’t like the teaching of the Catholic Church, he knows where the door is. What really upsets me is when those in positions of authority who want to reinvent Catholicism, rather than hit the road and found another sect.

Whilst I hope that this priest opposes child abuse, I believe his policies, and those of priests like him, have led to it. Now I might be wrong, but if I am right, is it any wonder that I swipe at him in this way? Yes, I was harsh, but the time for mealy mouthed liberalism is over in my view. For too long we have listened to priests like him, and their approval of homosexuality flies diametrically opposed to the natural law, family life, society, and the Catholic Faith.

“But again it is Islam that I hate.”

‘This to me this is religious hatred. There are some who would want you jailed under some blasphemy law for that. But don’t worry John, you will not find me amongst them. We would have to parade up and down chanting ‘Free the PQ one’!’

I fully expect to be gaoled over my views on Irish freedom, Islam or homosexuality one day. Of course, when Islam takes over, they will deal with the homosexuals too. You might have trouble raising too many PQ’rs to defend me. They might just be throwing rotten tomatoes at me as I’m led into the court.

'The Moslems are as good or as bad as the rest of us.'

I agree, thank God for hypocrisy. It is when they take their religion seriously that they blow up buildings, chop off heads and practice paedophilia, all in imitation of or obedience to their 'prophet'.

There is an interesting debate, on YouTube, with the motion ‘The only good Moslem is a Bad one’, between Robert Spenser and Peter Kreeft. If you ever want to spend a really worthwhile 45 minutes, I would recommend it. You will see that I am not saying anything lightly or without grounds.

Of course, I do not dispute that as individual human beings, you are just as likely to have a good Moslem, as a good Catholic, as a good atheist, or even a good protestant. I guess we are using ‘good’ in two senses. I meant good in the sense of faithful to every tenet of their belief. I belief when they are this that is when Jihad is waged. If it is used in the sense of 'morally good' I am certain their are many tens of thousands of good Moslems.

‘Why can’t the lot of you just practice your religion on yourselves and let be those with no interest in it? If the pope doesn’t want to wear a condom he has that choice. But he should leave those who choose differently alone.’

The Pope, by the nature of his office, has to teach his flock, if they disagree, let them seek another shepherd. Besides, you don’t all have to listen you know, as he reminded us in his latest book, but I believe you would be wise to.

Hate TV John, Not only am I opposed to this prie...

2011-01-31T20:42:26.703Z

Hate TV

John,

Not only am I opposed to this priest being censored I am uncomfortable with you labelling him a degenerate for expressing an opinion contrary to your own. For this reason I think you weaken your ground hitting out at Larry for calling you a perv. I happen to think both you and Larry are singing from the same hymn sheet on this. ‘Degenerate’ and ‘perv’ are not terms that we could slip a razor blade between. Nor is he ‘an apologist of abuse.’

‘But again it is Islam that I hate.’

This to me this is religious hatred. There are some who would want you jailed under some blasphemy law for that. But don’t worry John, you will not find me amongst them. We would have to parade up and down chanting ‘Free the PQ one’!

‘a good Moslem is far more immoral than the worst of all the most treacherous priests. ‘

This is a further example of that religious hatred. The Moslems are as good or as bad as the rest of us.

Why can’t the lot of you just practice your religion on yourselves and let be those with no interest in it? If the pope doesn’t want to wear a condom he has that choice. But he should leave those who choose differently alone.

The terrible things that have been carried out in the name of invisible men.

Helen

‘This has been one of the most interesting and intellectual debates on religion I've come across in a long time. An excellent contribution
by all regardless of viewpoints.’

Nice that someone is reading it!

Evangelists strike me as cranks.

Anthony, "‘Those who abuse in the Catholic C...

2011-01-31T16:52:42.575Z

Anthony,

"‘Those who abuse in the Catholic Church do it by rejecting the teachings
of their Founder and their Faith, those in Islam do it in imitation of
their founder and it is sanctioned by their teachings.’"

'This is too stark a contrast. Given the annoyingly close identification between the Moslems and their prophet you would imagine if he really advocated paedophilia many more would be doing it.'

See a good study here, especially links to current day child brides:

http://wikiislam.net/wiki/Islam_and_Pedophilia

Or here where it is commonplace in their schools:

Madrassas hit by sex abuse claims
By Paul Anderson
BBC News, Islamabad

A Pakistani minister has revealed hundreds of cases of alleged child sex abuse at Islamic schools, or madrassas.
There were 500 complaints this year of abuse allegedly committed by clerics, Aamer Liaquat Hussain, a minister in the religious affairs department, said.
That compares with 2,000 last year, but as yet there have been no successful prosecutions, Mr Hussain told the BBC.
The minister's revelations have sparked death threats and infuriated some religious political leaders.
Mr Hussain said he had received death threats from clerics, but that he had done his job and his conscience was clear.
Leaders angered
The time had come for his country to face the bitter truth - the sickness of child abuse, he said.
The allegations involving Pakistan's Sunni majority and Shia minority referred to a tiny proportion of the country's 10,000 or so madrassas, he said.
He added that the body responsible for them, the Federation of Madrassas, was willing to co-operate with investigations because some clerics were bringing a bad name to Islam.
However, the revelations have angered some Islamic leaders. At a parliamentary meeting this week, some demanded he apologise.
The abuse revelations were made during a week in which the Pakistani government has been meeting religious leaders to build awareness of the spread of HIV/Aids.
Pakistan is stepping up its anti-Aids campaign, and the idea is to utilise the clerics' unique reach into communities to increase HIV/Aids awareness and to preach prevention.
Story from BBC NEWS:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/pr/fr/-/1/hi/world/south_asia/4084951.stm

Published: 2004/12/10 10:53:05 GMT

John, "I just realized that the two men a...

2011-01-30T16:56:04.870Z
John,

"I just realized that the two men are supposed to be named on the birth certificate as parents, and the mother is not. ... Would supporters of this care to justify the blatant lie that is on this document?"

No, I would not. I believe that only the biological parents should be on the birth certificate. If a gay couple has a child via a surrogate, then the one who is not a biological parent can always adopt the child to become one of its legal guardians. I also believe that if a married heterosexual couple require an egg or sperm donor to conceive, then the donor's name should be on the birth certificate.

John, Thanks for contributing on this. ‘I am al...

2011-01-30T09:14:22.730Z
John,

Thanks for contributing on this.

‘I am always very suspicious of those who seek to lower the age of
consent, as quite often they have sinister motives.’

I think the argument can legitimately be made. I also think the raising of the age for consent argument can be legitimately be made as well. These things are not fixed and timeless but evolve with human society.

‘but those seeking lowering the age are not always doing it for altruistic motives.’

This always happens. But it is no reason to rule the suggestion out of court. The bin man does not lift the bin for altruistic reasons but it is good that he lifts the bin all the same. It is good that free inquiry should exist so that we may better understand the phenomena that confront us.

The Pope would not get away with saying it because of the context in which he operates. But it would not be ethically wrong for him to argue for shifting the age of consent up or down. Tatchell, I think, stayed on the right side of the line but took his boat very close to the wind. Yet, this happens when boundaries have to be probed. That is how knowledge proceeds.

Anthony, (I said); “Pedophilia is permitted in th...

2011-01-29T22:50:59.511Z
Anthony,

(I said);
“Pedophilia is permitted in the Qur'an, was practiced by Muhammad and his companions, and some Muslims today continue to commit the crime, following their prophet's example.”

‘Where in the Koran?’

Here is a link to a relevant passage that takes it for granted, (65,4).

http://islam-watch.org/Amarkhan/pedophilia-in-islam/pedophilia-islam.htm#Ch2

You will see that this is a comprehensive site which deals with the question as it is in the Koran, and in Islam’s officially endorsed Hadiths. It is important to bear in mind that Islam is not a merely a religion of the ‘book,’ like fundamentalist protestants, but there are three main sources of their religion, the Koran, the Hadiths and the Sunnah, (or words and deeds of Mohammed). Any verse of the Koran, (such as 65, 4), can only be interpreted in light of these. That is mainstream Moslem teaching.

‘…But in my view the argument can be made that Mohammed was a paedophile.’

I agree.

‘I know some Muslims but none who advocate sex with children.’

Most Moslems would be horrified by the thought of it, but you will find it defended by many of its clerics and those who don’t defend it are silent because they cannot oppose it as they cannot criticize their ‘prophet.’

Also, there have been cases where people convicted and gaoled for paedophilia have converted to Islam to enable them to attempt to justify their vice, if not to others, to themselves.

(I said);
“Those who abuse in the Catholic Church do it by rejecting the teachings of their Founder and their Faith, those in Islam do it in imitation of their founder and it is sanctioned by their teachings.”

‘This is too stark a contrast. Given the annoyingly close identification between the Moslems and their prophet you would imagine if he really advocated paedophilia many more would be doing it.’

I suspect that most Moslems are lax in imitating Mohammed as most Catholics are lax in imitating Christ. Both religions are adamant that their respective founders ought to be imitated. Thank goodness for the laxity of Moslems as their founder was a rapist, a paedophile, and a murderer.

‘According to Tariq Ali, some Moslem clerics have been raping boys.’

Paedophilia within Islam is generally against girls, rather than boys and it is generally in the form of child brides. For example in Iran, ‘girls can be engaged before the age of nine and married at nine’, (The Truth About Muhammad, Robert Spencer).

Indeed Ayatollah Khomeini married a ten year old girl, when he was twenty eight. He also wrote a book which defended having non-penetrative sexual contact with babies.

‘A more germane reason for Catholicism being discussed rather than Islam in our circles is that it s what we have grown up with.’

I take your point here, although things are changing.

‘It is a cultural reference point in a way that Islam is not. Islam is a body that we are only recently familiar with.’

But at the current rate of Islamic expansion, one that will all too soon be the dominant force in Europe.

Helen, ‘One question for those who do believe in ...

2011-01-29T21:05:37.268Z
Helen,

‘One question for those who do believe in God? Why do people blame God
for what men do? We all have a free will. Where that takes us has
nothing to do with God.’

One billion years ago god knew where you would go when you die. That knowledge cannot be contradicted or be proved wrong otherwise god is not all powerful. If he knows you were going to hell there is absolutely nothing you can do about it.

John,

“Pedophilia is permitted in the Qur'an, was practiced by Muhammad and
his companions, and some Muslims today continue to commit the crime,
following their prophet's example.”

Where in the Koran? I have one in the house but like the bible I have never turned a page. (not exactly true about the bible – once upon a time I leafed though it).

Like much else on the web this is disputed. Not that I know one way or the other. But in my view the argument can be made that Mohammed was a paedophile. I know some Muslims but none who advocate sex with children.

‘Those who abuse in the Catholic Church do it by rejecting the teachings
of their Founder and their Faith, those in Islam do it in imitation of
their founder and it is sanctioned by their teachings.’

This is too stark a contrast. Given the annoyingly close identification between the Moslems and their prophet you would imagine if he really advocated paedophilia many more would be doing it. According to Tariq Ali, some Moslem clerics have been raping boys. But I don’t hear them justifying it. And given that there is even less tolerance in Islam for gays than there is in your creed the clerical rape of boys would seem to be deviation from the Koran.

A more germane reason for Catholicism being discussed rather than Islam in our circles is that it s what we have grown up with. It is a cultural reference point in a way that Islam is not. Islam is a body that we are only recently familiar with. And where it attacks women and gays it gets lambasted. And if it attacks kids it gets the same. I doubt if we have any favourite religion. They are all bunkum to me.

Hate TV Stefan, weeks behind on this one. Antho...

2011-01-29T19:01:37.868Z
Hate TV

Stefan,

weeks behind on this one.

Anthony, the substance is in 'Theism corrupted by Darwin becomes Deism with the overall goal of Atheism.'

Too many believers don’t agree and have not found that to be their experience.

‘Deism destroys all the deposits of Catholic faith’

Wouldn’t worry about that. The Catholic faith can compete with other opinions for position. While Catholics might delude themselves that their invisible man makes them more special than the other invisible men make their followers, for those of us who are not Catholic it is all guff.

‘and if you give validity to the historical documentation of Gods interaction with humankind as written in the many books that go under the one Title of the Bible, as I do then Deism isn't a compatible concept.’

Talking snakes and all that. Why would I give validity to that? Apart from politicians how many talking snakes have you met? If the bible is the basis for your view of the world and the history of humanity there is little point in us discussing things. Your attitude that it is a sacred text and mine that it made good toilet roll in the jail will never meet.