Comments on The Pensive Quill: Papal Bull

I response to your question, Anthony, as has been ...

2011-01-06T20:49:46.201Z

I response to your question, Anthony, as has been asked so often and not answered with any degree of substance is why should believers worry in the slightest about evolution, I would like to submit some quotes starting with Darwin himself...
"I would give absolutely nothing for the theory of Natural Selection if it requires miraculous additions at any one stage of descent."
University of Chicago evolutionary biologist Jerry Coyne...
"True there are religious scientists and Darwinian churchgoers, but this does not mean that faith and science are compatible...It is like saying that marriage and adultery are compatible because some married people are adulterers."
Casey Luskin on Science journalist Chris Mooney...
"Like any good political strategist, atheists in the NCSE backed evolution lobby court the middle ground - in this case religious moderates - in hopes of increasing their base support" he says of Mooney on the subject " he simply realized that linking Atheism with Darwin could be dangerous to public opinion and public evolution education".

In my opinion Theism corrupted by Darwin becomes Deism with the overall goal of Atheism.

Carried Over From No Disgrace in Embrace John, ‘...

2011-01-06T12:06:33.117Z

Carried Over From No Disgrace in Embrace

John,

‘An important principle was held back by the Pope and hardly
likely to be understood by a sensationalist press in regard to this, and that is that is never morally permissible to do evil, even to attain a good … there is no allowance whatsoever in the Catholic system for directly choosing an evil.’

But this is what has been happening. Even presuming the reputation of the Church was worth preserving the evil used to attain it was self evident. What should be done with the Church which through its practices institutionalised child rape?

‘The girl’s Bishop is adamant that there was no risk to the girl’s life, unless she were to have a natural birth, which would not have been allowed for someone so young.’

What possible business could it be of the bishop’s? The girl’s family should have told him where to get off. Medical opinion is what matters here not the view of some bishop from a church that had already amply demonstrated its disregard for the welfare of children.

Alfie

‘I'm against the death penalty, which I consider to be morally wrong. Nevertheless, I believe executing someone by a less painful method, like lethal injection, is better than hanging or beating or burning someone to death. So lethal injection, though wrong in an overall sense, is perhaps a step in the right direction; it is certainly more
moral than inflicting an incredibly painful death on someone.’

This is trying to diminish a pain that is certain to occur anyway. Without intervention it will be worse. Lessening pain is always a good thing.

Carried over from Fiery Terry ‘I think honest sci...

2011-01-06T08:34:02.957Z

Carried over from Fiery Terry

‘I think honest scientists would agree that there is an element of disinformation made to the general public in so much as it is put across through the media that if science doesn't have all the answers presently its only a matter of time till they do, which is clearly a massive overstretching of their capabilities to the point of lying.’

I disagree. The false testimony was borne at Dover. They were not the scientists. I think it is totally reasonable for science to claim it will discover information about many things it does not now possess. That has been the experience up to now. That is hardly lying. I think it is dubious to claim that science in general claims that it will discover ‘all the answers.’ In my experience what science claims is that what answers are to be discovered will be discovered by science. Whether it will be the work of Christian scientists or Atheist scientist we do not know. But it will be science. The pseudoscience of Intelligent Design just won’t figure.

I guess I was very fortunate to know good priests ...

2011-01-06T05:22:16.060Z

I guess I was very fortunate to know good priests when I was growing up. Men of the cloth who were honest, straight, dedicated to their beliefs and very kind to those less fortunate.

Unfortunately, over the years, the church made it very difficult for those who were not involved in such disgraceful matters to continue to be silent on such issues, as discussed here, and therefore forced them to leave the priest hood.

I am a baptized Catholic and I believe in God. I do not believe in man made laws. I do not hold, as absolute "truth," anything a priest tells me, but I do respect the law of God and that consists of the Ten Commandments.

If one looks at the ten commandments from a non religious point of view, they are nothing more than a basic guideline to a humantarian life style.

John, According to Podles, priests and male relig...

2011-01-05T20:30:21.613Z

John,

According to Podles, priests and male religious account for 3.2% of all the abuse in Ireland, but only make up 0.15% of the general population. I was making a similar argument, but I was taking other denominations into account as well because the SAVI report just gave abuse figures for "religious ministers" and "religious teachers", but not for individual denominations. So, if these figures are correct, it would appear that (in Ireland at least) Catholic clergy are/were disproportionately perpetrating sexual abuse of minors. Podles also claims that Catholic clergy in Ireland are 5 times more likely to abuse than other men.

Aristotle is said to be the father of natural law ...

2011-01-05T20:20:14.625Z

Aristotle is said to be the father of natural law but this is due to the attention given to his works by Thomas Aquinas.Obviously this being the first documented human interpretations of a much older concept.
Serious ID proponents would include anyone using scientific means to disprove blind random mutation to account for the complexity in nature.You seem to be trying to meld the two concepts Anthony but in reality Creationism is a religious beleif and scientific evidence to disprove Darwin isn't...it's plain science.
A religious believer armed with evolutionary beliefs possesses nothing more than an acid which "eats through just about every traditional concept," to quote philosopher Daniel Dennett.To coin another phrase from William Provine "Evolution is the greatest engine of Atheism ever invented,"
Theistic Evolution is simply an attempt to promote Darwin to the religious faithfull.

Remarkable exchange between Michael Ruse and Daniel Dennett
2006 Leaked email
“I think that you (Daniel Dennett) and Richard (Dawkins) are absolute disasters in the fight against intelligent design - we are losing this battle, not the least of which is the two new supreme court justices who are certainly going to vote to let it into classrooms - what we need is not knee-jerk atheism but serious grappling with the issues - neither of you are willing to study Christianity seriously and to engage with the ideas - it is just plain silly and grotesquely immoral to claim that Christianity is simply a force for evil, as Richard claims - more than this, we are in a fight, and we need to make allies in the fight, not simply alienate everyone of good will.”

Carried over from Fiery Terry Alfie, I thought ...

2011-01-05T16:02:13.226Z

Carried over from Fiery Terry

Alfie,

I thought the brief discussion between yourself and Robert caught the essence of the debate quite well. You presented the case marvellously. Biblical explanations are so simple compared to scientific ones and easy to follow. But the scientific account is much easier to accept. And the critique of the scientific account has been so impoverished. I always feel that with science there is less of the feel of a con to it, less willingness to censor. I often wonder why believers are prepared to risk Deism in defence of the bible. Makes little intellectual sense to me.

Stefan,

‘serious ID proponents draw a strict line in the sand with Creationism.’

Which serious ID proponents are you referring to? What ID critiques or creationism would you recommend?

‘Creationism is not science on this part we all will agree.’

Well we don’t agree unfortunately otherwise we would not have ‘creationist science.’ Robert if I don’t misrepresent him implies creationism is science.

‘As long as you keep coming from the angle that evolution is a done deal
the notion of creationism is gonna baffle you.’

Evolution is a done deal, well established outside of what I might think of it with my limited knowledge of science. But as has been asked so often and not answered with any degree of substance is why should believers worry in the slightest about evolution? It by no means invalidates the existence of god. A religious believer armed with evolutionary beliefs is a much more formidable witness for theism than the anti-evolutionists.

Stefan, ‘Heres a section from the US Diplomatic c...

2011-01-05T08:57:53.619Z

Stefan,

‘Heres a section from the US Diplomatic cable recently leaked...’

"While Vatican contacts immediately expressed deep sympathy for the
victims and insisted that the first priority was preventing a
recurrence, they also were angered by how the situation played out
politically. The Murphy Commission's requests offended many in the
Vatican, the Holy See's Assessor Peter Wells (protect strictly) told
DCM, because they saw them as an affront to Vatican sovereignty.
Vatican officials were also angered that the Government of Ireland did
not step in to direct the Murphy Commission to follow standard
procedures in communications with Vatican City. Adding insult to
injury, Vatican officials also believed some Irish opposition
politicians were making political hay with the situation by calling
publicly on the government to demand that the Vatican reply.
Ultimately, Vatican Secretary of State (Prime Minister equivalent)
Bertone wrote to the Irish Embassy that requests related to the
investigation must come through diplomatic channels via letters
rogatory."

This sounds so arrogant and was designed to be evasive and widely viewed as such at the time. Hiding behind pseudo sovereignty hardly allowed the Church to portray itself in a good light after the release of the Murphy Report.

However, a former deputy said he - not the future Pope - had made the
decision to re-house the priest, who later abused other children and
was convicted.'

A variant of this is used in every cover up. That s not to say that the former deputy is covering up but it is typical of a bureaucratic shifting of responsibility.

Stefan, many of the comments are lying around, having been written some time ago and being posted in no particular order. So don’t feel that I have overlooked your comments on Eugenie Scott etc. I will get to them in time.

John, 'Original Sin continues to wreak a veng...

2011-01-05T08:47:09.886Z

John,

'Original Sin continues to wreak a vengeance on a fallen humanity.'

It deems the truly innocent - children - as sinful who need a redeemer for the sins they never committed and if they don't have that redeemer they will be banished from Heaven. What a hateful concept. It took a seriously poisoned mind to devise that. I wonder how many children have been raped by the Redeemer's representative after being subjected to that type of logic.

‘G K Chesterton wrote that "Certain new theologians dispute original
sin, which is the only part of Christian theology which can really be
proved," (Orthodoxy, chap. 2).’

Can really be proved. Could that proof be presented to us?

I am relieved that you translated the Latin. I did three years of it at school but remember so little of it.

‘O happy fault,
O necessary sin of Adam,
which gained for us so great a Redeemer!’

You don’t really expect me to treat such circular nonsense with any degree of seriousness?

Stefan,

‘Natural law goes through the same scrutiny as everything else and
stands as inherent rights, not conferred by acts of legislation.’

Where has this natural law been found without human interpretation? Who made the discovery?

Anthony in response to your comment "teach it...

2011-01-05T05:38:14.435Z

Anthony in response to your comment "teach it as mythology or theology but not science", I transfer over contradictions in the Dover 'ethics' of "the science class is not being the place where religion should be," from Fiery Terry thread...
"Eugenie Scott, the NCSE's executive director and scientific and educational consultant for the plaintiffs in the Dover trial, encouraging biology teachers to spend class time having students read statements by religious leaders supporting evolution."

If indeed the wedge strategy is the baby of the reactionary element then they don't know the power it holds when applied succesfully.
Being that you asked I'll give the courtesy of response for want of my own beleif albeit well out of your realms of your reality I would assume.Satan's dominion over the Earth concluded in between Vatican II and the rise of Solidarność, 75 - 100 years post Pope Leo XIII's vision after Mass which is well documented in its relevance to the events.

Just because the the ID 'movement' is firmly rooted in one camp does it mean all its followers have to originate or dwell in that camp?
Quoting from your post in response to me -
"‘I would refocus on Crocker’s case who simply initiated the belief that a divine force is behind all the science which I don't view as any sort backdoor attempt
in smuggling anything new into the curriculum.’
Her slides weren’t? Was it already in the curriculum?"
Encouraging biology teachers to spend class time having students read statements by religious leaders supporting evolution is in the curriculum so why can't Crocker do her thing?
With regards to Darwinian evolutionary theory being in a theistic framework to the point of it becoming Deism and your question 'what could possibly be wrong with that from a religious perspective?', I can sum up as Deism falling short of explaining my own religious experiences thus for me it don't work.

John, I should also say that The Crossland Founda...

2011-01-04T21:53:06.415Z

John,

I should also say that The Crossland Foundation, an organisation founded by Podles, has published a book on the clerical sexual abuse crisis in Ireland. The book is called An Irish Tragedy, How Sex Abuse By Irish Priests Helped Cripple The Catholic Church and it is written by Joe Rigert. Contrary to the situation in the USA, the author estimates that half of abusive priests in Ireland targeted girls. However, I think it it is generally true that abusers who target boys tend to have more victims than those who target girls. Nevertheless, let me say again that men who abuse boys or young adolescent males tend not to be interested in adults of either sex. I suppose if the church wanted to stamp out clerical sexual abuse completely, it could always switch to women priests!

Carried over from No Disgrace in Embrace John, &...

2011-01-04T20:28:41.442Z

Carried over from No Disgrace in Embrace

John,

'Meanwhile, I enclose two links to an article by Randy Engel which I
believe to be relevant.'

www.ourladyswarriors.org/articles/damian1.htm

www.ourladyswarriors.org/articles/damian2.htm

John they may be relevant but I don’t have the patience to read them. Apologies. I opened the first one and crank religiosity jumped out at me. That was about it for me. We all have our foibles. But thanks for providing all the same. I can stomach religious people easily enough but when they sound like cranks I switch off. That is not only in relation to religious cracks by the way as you probably discerned from my recent suggestion to you not to waste your time on some things.

Carried over from Fiery Terry Stefan "While...

2011-01-04T16:15:09.615Z

Carried over from Fiery Terry

Stefan

"While Crocker’s slides may be easy to slam based on a lack of hard facts behind them, that doesn’t mean that hard facts don’t exist on the topic. Don’t throw the baby out with the bath water."

Just about sums up why she should not have been smuggling religion into the science room. Teach it as mythology or theology but not science. She could be a brilliant Irish speaker but that does not give her the right to teach it in the French class.

‘Irrespective of what reactionary elements want as an outcome from
the goals of the wedge strategy a big step to undermining the
Capitalist class is exposing the falsehood of materialism which is the veil holding back the truth that man does not hold dominion over our world.’

The wedge strategy is the baby of the reactionary element.

What does hold dominion over our world? God, the Flying Spaghetti Monster, Thor, the Devil?

‘The theocracy wanted by rightwing America’

A good point. I think not enough people appreciate this.

‘Just because some of the constructs of your theory come from either end camp doesn't mean you buy wholeheartedly into either in its entire strategy.’

Fair comment. But the Intelligent Design Movement is very much in one camp.

‘I would refocus on Crocker’s case who simply initiated the belief that a divine force is behind all the science which I don't view as any sort backdoor attempt
in smuggling anything new into the curriculum.’

Her slides weren’t? Was it already in the curriculum?

‘Darwinian evolutionary theory within a theistic framework to the point of it becoming Deism.’

What could possibly be wrong with that from a religious perspective?

In this whole debate it is sometimes overlooked that natural selection can also criticised from an atheist perspective.

John, I suppose it was only a matter of time befo...

2011-01-04T13:05:56.357Z

John,

I suppose it was only a matter of time before I was hoist with my own petard! Seriously though, I certainly don't agree with everything Podles writes, such as his conflation of pederasty and homosexuality. It is true that clerical sexual abuse is mostly of adolescent males, but it is also true that most homosexuals in wider society do not pursue pederastic relationships. Nor are homosexuals any more likely than heterosexuals to force themselves on others. However, it could well be the case that the priesthood attracts a disproportionate number of homosexually inclined men, and of these, a small minority are serial pederasts. Indeed, as Philip Jenkins observed, out of the 100,000 priests active in the US in the latter half of the twentieth century, a select cadre of just 149 individuals accounted for over a quarter of all the allegations of clergy abuse. Also, the priesthood would certainly have afforded these pederasts much more opportunities to abuse than those who preferred young girls. To me, this theory is more plausible than Podles's contention that homosexuals are generally irresponsible boy-lovers and it is their presence in the priesthood that is the problem. I mean, if this were the case, homosexuals in all walks of life (for example, teachers) would present a huge threat to adolescents; I've yet to see any evidence of this. If you're interested, here are two articles on the issue:

http://www.imt.ie/opinion/guests/2010/05/is-there-a-reason-for-paedophilia.html

http://psychology.ucdavis.edu/rainbow/html/facts_molestation.html

I just re-wrote my last post to Alfie as I thought...

2011-01-03T22:15:37.138Z

I just re-wrote my last post to Alfie as I thought I had lost it.

Feel free to delete the near duplicate.

Alfie, “Podles should know; he has written a wide...

2011-01-03T22:12:27.024Z

Alfie,

“Podles should know; he has written a widely-praised study of clerical sexual abuse in the US, called Sacrilege: Sexual Abuse in the Catholic Church”

I was looking at his website and was very interested to see that he concurs with me entirely on the fact of the issue being predatory homosexuality rather than paedophilia.

He writes:

“First, as to the nature of clerical misbehavior: Pedophilia refers to sexual desire for pre-pubescent children. This is extremely rare, and only a handful of cases in several decades have involved priests who are true pedophiles…”

“Homosexuality Is the Problem”

“Second, and most important, Jenkins’s analysis indicates that the true nature of the problem in the Catholic Church is not pedophilia, but homosexuality, which can lead to sexual relations with sexually mature but underage boys.”

“Neither the media nor the Church have made it clear to the public that most of the abuse cases involve teenage boys, for this would focus the issue on the problems of homosexuality, a topic that is not politically correct. By not making this clear, the media has given the impression that the Catholic Church attracts sick priests who like little children, as opposed to homosexuals who like teenage boys (not a good thing, but not as disgusting as pedophilia).”

He mentions the influence of secular psychology in its mishandling and he goes on to debunk the fallacy of clerical celibacy as a cause.

He notes also:

“The Catholic Church has been a target (by the media) because it keeps good records, but the Episcopal Church has a comparable problem, and some of the worst cases have been in fundamentalist and Pentecostal churches—but these cases rarely receive public attention.”

Thank you for bringing Podles to my attention. If the rest of his work is as good as what I have seen so far, anyone with a genuine interest in eliminating any abuse in the Catholic Church or elsewhere would have much to learn from him.

(I do intend to come back to your last points as soon as I can.)

Alfie, "Podles should know; he has written a...

2011-01-03T21:44:12.273Z

Alfie,

"Podles should know; he has written a widely-praised study of clerical sexual abuse in the US, called Sacrilege: Sexual Abuse in the Catholic Church"

I found an article from him, (see below), which confirms everything I have written in previous posts about it being a question of 'predatory' homosexuality, rather than 'paedophilia'.

Among other things he says:

"Homosexuality Is the Problem
..., Jenkins’s analysis indicates that the true nature of the problem in the Catholic Church is not pedophilia, but homosexuality, which can lead to sexual relations with sexually mature but underage boys."

"Neither the media nor the Church have made it clear to the public that most of the abuse cases involve teenage boys, for this would focus the issue on the problems of homosexuality, a topic that is not politically correct. By not making this clear, the media has given the impression that the Catholic Church attracts sick priests who like little children, as opposed to homosexuals who like teenage boys (not a good thing, but not as disgusting as pedophilia)."

http://www.podles.org/catholicscandals.htm

I note also his words;

"The Catholic Church has been a target because it keeps good records, but the Episcopal Church has a comparable problem, and some of the worst cases have been in fundamentalist and Pentecostal churches—but these cases rarely receive public attention."

Thank you for bringing him to my attention. He certainly does seem to be a serious writer on the subject.

(I will get back to you on your last points.)

"It dismays because since you have taken to a...

2011-01-03T20:54:22.540Z

"It dismays because since you have taken to arguing your position on this blog I have been convinced that you are every bit as opposed to abuse as the rest of us and genuinely want it stopped yet there is this mental road block that will not allow you to plunge the dagger into the heart of the beast.

I just don't see the beast to be the Catholic Church. If it were really that simple then there would not be similar problems outside of it.

In my life I have met hundreds of priests and religious, partly due to trying my vocation in two different Benedictine monasteries and a Dominican priory. These were traditional pre-Vatican II groups who refused to adopt the reforms of the Council. I can honestly say that I never even heard of such things anywhere. Indeed when the first cases became known, I personally thought that they were malicious inventions by people seeking money. After a while the sheer wait of evidence forced me to accept that these things had been going on. That is why I contend, that, in the main, they are a result of an almost total meltdown within the Catholic Church as its bishops, priests and religious couldn't discard everything sacred quikly enough, and the best, when corrupted became the worst!

I have since met many modern priests who made a point of rejecting Catholic teachings and traditions. A lot of these were suspect and have since defected from the priesthood.

Some of the people I would blame the most for the crisis of faith and morals are the so-called periti of Vatican II, such as Hans Kung. You see him as a hero, I see him as at least partially responsible for the tragedy we are living through. I am not saying he supported this, but he sure helped to break down the barriers that has resulted in the deseased Catholicism that predominates throughout most of the Catholic world.

I would have no mercy on any bishop, priest or religious who did this as the damage they have caused could lead to the loss of faith of millions. But I don't agree that because some have done this we should attack all priests. I have known priests who have been spat on and insulted. These good priests have given their lives to serve the faithful, and are now going through hell because of what is happening.

John, There is an important difference between wh...

2011-01-03T19:40:35.957Z

John,

There is an important difference between what you and Charol Shakeshaft are saying. Dr. Shakeshaft claims that "the physical sexual abuse of students in schools is likely more than 100 times the abuse by priests." She is saying that the number of abuse cases involving teachers is probably more than 100 times the number of abuse cases involving priests. This is mostly explained by the fact that there are about 4 million teachers in the USA but only about 40,000 priests. Also access to children is a factor; I would say that teachers have more access to children that any other profession. Indeed, primary school teachers probably spend more time with children during the school year than parents do. Anyway, what you inferred from Shakeshaft's statement was that "a child is literally over 100 times more likely to be molested in a public school than in a Catholic church." That may be true of the average child, particularly one who is not Catholic, but you cannot deduce that from what Dr. Shakeshaft claimed. For example, let's say there was a country which had 1000 priests and 100,000 teachers; let's also assume that 10% of each group abused children. In this case, you would have 100 times more cases of abuse by teachers than by priests, but both priests and teachers would be equally likely to abuse. But were/are teachers and priests in the USA equally likely to sexually abuse children? One way to determine this is by comparing estimates of the number of teachers and priests who abuse. As I've said before, Shakeshaft's estimates of US teachers who abuse range from 0.04% to 5%, while estimates of the number of US priests that abuse range from 2% (Phillip Jenkins) to 6% (Richard Sipe). So they are broadly similar. You could also look at the number of reported abuse cases involving teachers and priests, while taking into account the much larger number of teachers than priests.

With regard to the relationship between clerical sexual abuse and Vatican II , this is what conservative Catholic scholar Leon Podles makes of Pope Benedict's attempt to link them:

Benedict makes some dubious assertions, half-truths at best. He claims that a misunderstanding of Vatican II led to a neglect of the penal aspects of the code of canon law. This may have happened, but what explains the toleration of abuse before Vatican II? From the American cases I have read the usual response of a bishop before Vatican II was to pawn an abusive priest off on an unsuspecting bishop, who was then stuck with him

The sexual liberation of the 1960s seems to have led to an increase of abuse cases; but this may be an illusion of reporting. Victims in older cases may have died and the files of abusive priests were generally destroyed on the death of the abuser. And terrible abuse occurred before the 1960s, and later abusers were trained in pre-1960s seminaries.

Podles should know; he has written a widely-praised study of clerical sexual abuse in the US, called Sacrilege: Sexual Abuse in the Catholic Church

john ive no interest in your waffle trying to side...

2011-01-03T19:39:50.312Z

john
ive no interest in your waffle trying to sidetrack on the issue. Glad you're collecting my points, pass them on to your local sagart/fagart. They obviously dont hear anything blunt or honest from the likes of you+ your apologist buddies.

Carried over from Fiery Terry John, ‘To refuse t...

2011-01-03T19:01:13.714Z

Carried over from Fiery Terry

John,

‘To refuse to deal with the real problem would be criminal.’

Whatever the problem it was not dealt with. The pass the pervert policy from diocese to diocese was the criminal abdication of a duty of care.

That is where the evidence leads.

‘Put simply, most clerical abusers are homosexuals.’

Put simply most clerical abusers are priests!

‘I agree they were monsters. I do not agree the Church has let us down,
but some in the Church have shown that they are ‘wolves in sheep’s
clothing.’

This sounds so much like a reticence to tackle the issue and acknowledge it as corporate crime. It dismays because since you have taken to arguing your position on this blog I have been convinced that you are every bit as opposed to abuse as the rest of us and genuinely want it stopped yet there is this mental road block that will not allow you to plunge the dagger into the heart of the beast.

Papal Bull Michaelhenry, ‘The bible's were w...

2011-01-03T10:27:41.681Z

Papal Bull

Michaelhenry,

‘The bible's were wrote by mere men
who being human had a tendency to
brag and tell the odd yarn’

You are not claiming Gerry wrote the bible are you?!

You are right. A book written by men and passed off as the word of god. Joseph Smith did the same. A brazen con carried out in relatively modern times yet he got away with it. Now there may be about 14 million worldwide who have that as their holy book. His Holiness Joe was just a crook who ended up shot in a gunfight in jail.

Nuala,

The Professor indeed. If he makes an escape attempt let’s hope he is successful.

Tain Bo

‘Wearing the robes of a catholic priest give them complete power and with only a slap on the wrist from the Vatican no wonder they felt invincible and this continued for decades.’

This sums up the attitude of many people watching this general debate. All the bobbing and weaving by the hierarchy has not dispelled the suspicion or banished the smell. There is something about a cover up that is instantly detectable. People sense it instinctively.

John

‘The Catholic Church gives local bishops more autonomy than is generally
realised. Many bishops are at fault, but to say they were complicit in
priests raping children does not follow.’

But it does follow. By their actions they provided the enabling factors that greatly enhanced the safety zone for the rapist and the danger zone for the child.

Anthony, going back to earlier discussions, you ma...

2011-01-03T07:51:32.891Z

Anthony, going back to earlier discussions, you may find this interesting.
I was reading around one of the leaders of NCSE's public relations effort in promoting evolution by the name of Eugenie Scott.It was she who amoungst other NCSE staff served as scientific and educational consultants for the plaintiffs in the Dover trial.
Quite surprisingly in contradiction of what they fought for in the trial she spearheaded the effort to inject religion into public school science classes in order to promote evolution.
According to John G.West
Is Darwinian Evolution Compatible with Religion?
Quote -
On a taxpayer-funded website that the NCSE helped design, teachers and students are directed to a list of statements by religious groups endorsing evolution, and Eugenie Scott, the group’s executive director, encourages biology teachers to spend class time having students read statements by religious leaders supporting evolution. Scott even suggests that students be assigned to interview local ministers about their views on evolution—but not if the community is “conservative Christian,” because then the lesson that “Evolution is OK!” may not come through.

I know Westmoreland Street.Spent most of me time r...

2011-01-03T06:36:36.579Z

I know Westmoreland Street.Spent most of me time round the bars of Dublin of an evening whilst I was there.Dunno your cafe mo chara but the Arlington did a fine carvery.
May have got in Mother Redcaps, I did most of them - my base was the Red Cow Inn, Naas road.
'God bless the auld dumplings' - ceart go leor a dhuine uasail, in London as in Dublin.
Good luck with courses Alfie, I can safely say the debates helped to further my own research of different topics covered especially the examples and arguments you raised against mine.
Thankyou for your kind words Anthony, indeed I smiled a lot, but it is your blog that is the blessing being the vessel for the well represented non partisan debate you allow.

Regarding leftwing liberal ideology...
Taken from the article by Peter Hitchins - Question: Who said: 'Not all sex involving children is unwanted and abusive'? Answer: The Pope's biggest British critic.

"on June 26, 1997, Mr Tatchell wrote a startling letter to the Guardian newspaper.
In it, he defended an academic book about ‘Boy-Love’ against what he saw as calls for it to be censored. When I contacted him on Friday, he emphasised that he is ‘against sex between adults and children’ and that his main purpose in writing the letter had been to defend free speech.
He told me: ‘I was opposing calls for censorship generated by this book. I was not in any way condoning paedophilia.’
Personally, I think he went a bit further than that. He wrote that the book’s arguments were not shocking, but ‘courageous’.
He said the book documented ‘examples of societies where consenting inter-generational sex is considered normal’.
He gave an example of a New Guinea tribe where ‘all young boys have sex with older warriors as part of their initiation into manhood’ and allegedly grow up to be ‘happy, well-adjusted husbands and fathers’.
And he concluded: ‘The positive nature of some child-adult sexual relationships is not confined to non-Western cultures. Several of my friends – gay and straight, male and female – had sex with adults from the ages of nine to 13. None feel they were abused. All say it was their conscious choice and gave them great joy.
‘While it may be impossible to condone paedophilia, it is time society acknowledged the truth that not all sex involving children is unwanted, abusive and harmful.’
Well, it’s a free country. And I’m rather grateful that Mr Tatchell, unlike most of his allies, is honest enough to discuss openly where the sexual revolution may really be headed.
What he said in 1997 remains deeply shocking to almost all of us. But shock fades into numb acceptance, as it has over and over again. Much of what is normal now would have been deeply shocking to British people 50 years ago. We got used to it. How will we know where to stop? Or will we just carry on for ever?"

Larry, "castrate and burn em at the stake. T...

2011-01-03T00:46:31.074Z

Larry,

"castrate and burn em at the stake. The scumbags should relate to that."

Much as I hate to say it, I agree!