Comments on The Pensive Quill: Honorable Compromise or Republican Versailles?

Robert, I think Trimble fell because SF did not ...

2010-08-10T13:13:37.578+01:00

Robert,

I think Trimble fell because SF did not deliver on decommissioning and he lost credibility at the same time as the unionist electorate lost patience. I think that electorate were willing to put up with power sharing and cross border bodies. Strand 2 (cross border bodies) is where Trimble was most successful. He was essentially constitutionally enhancing the firewalling of the NI state against 'encroachment' from Dublin. I think he took his eye off the ball in Strand 1 - not that he played a bad hand but that he failed to get into the mind of the unionist electorate who were upset less at power sharing and more at the release of prisoners and the reform of the RUC.

Thanks. I am working on a follow up article on the...

2010-08-07T14:48:14.309+01:00

Thanks.
I am working on a follow up article on the question of why those who have lost think that they are winning and those who have won are convinced that they are losing everything.

Robert, cannot even credit Adams with that one. M...

2010-08-03T16:20:28.794+01:00

Robert, cannot even credit Adams with that one.

Mainstream Republicans have created an illusionary utopia and people have actually bought into it.

They actually convinced many people that surrender and disaster was in fact a victory, those they could not convince they called traitors.

Maybe ignorance really is bliss?

Fionnuala, Nice to find something we can agree on...

2010-08-02T22:27:21.147+01:00

Fionnuala,

Nice to find something we can agree on and I say that with all sincerity.

"I would go for the latter conclusion however, that the end result was very much a 'Republican Versailles'"
Having failed to seize power via the 'Munich Putsch' Hitler adopted democratic politics to eventually destroy the Weimar Republic. Perhaps Gerry has adopted the same strategy regards N.Ireland?

Interested, I think you misunderstand my position...

2010-08-02T21:46:58.959+01:00

Interested,

I think you misunderstand my position. I concur entirely with Liam and know exactly where he is coming from as his position is, as I have already stated, comprehensive and incontrovertible whatever your perspective. Unassailable truth with proof.
I am aware that I am not his target audience, but my point, from a Unionist perspective, was that the Provisional's defeat and volte-face was so extensive as to arouse suspicions that, in the words of Tommy Gorman, this is a "dirty trick". Hence the comment, "As a Unionist therein lies my problem - the roll over of the Provisionals has been too comprehensive. Having agreed with the observation, "the Unionists have won, they just don't know it.", I provided two reasons why, in my opinion, that situation existed. Do you disagree?

Yes Republicans have lost and Unionism has won on the main constitutional issue but the situation is more complex than reducing it to such simplistic terms. Sinn Fein's presence in Stormont creates a paradox for Republicans and Unionists.

"If the whole issue of sharing power with Sinn Fein is a loss I really think your judgement is clouded , Sinn Fein could have entered Stormont under the old system so really Robert what have you lost and what has the republican people gained."

Republicans in Republican terms have gained nothing, I could argue that in the words of Andy Williams' "The Impossible Dream" that is because the entire project was, "To dream the impossible dream, To fight the unbeatable foe". I would further argue that had unification been achieved you would still be in a position of questioning what Republicans had gained? In everyday human terms nobody is dieing on the previous scale and while I refuse to be thankful to anyone for that we should view it as a much more preferable situation. Many Unionists have lost family and friends - the, "resounding success for the Unionist people." has come at a high personal expense for them. I cannot but have sympathy for the lady who having lost her husband and daughter feels no sense of victory when the person ultimately responsible for that loss sits at the very head of government. Is her judgement clouded?

Liam, I have found this so extremely interesting t...

2010-08-01T16:52:52.985+01:00

Liam, I have found this so extremely interesting to read. Even find myself agreeing with Robert, that this is so well researched and presented.

I would go for the latter conclusion however, that the end result was very much a 'Republican Versailles'

We got nothing and yet we were expected to give even more.
Had Adams and Co had the courage to acknowledge that the only thing seismic was the extent of the surrender people may have forgiven that.
Instead we had to listen to them banging on about transition, demographic change and all the other claptrap.

The reality of people's lives now is nothing changed, if anything things have gotten worse.

Robert I would like to try and help you understan...

2010-08-01T09:52:23.835+01:00

Robert
I would like to try and help you understand were Liam is coming from , Liam is setting out to explain mainly to people from the republican thinking what we as a people have accepted, myself I would included everyone and go a little further , to say that the “Unionist have won but they just don’t know it” is in my opinion correct. Go back to 1969 and see what the Armed Struggle really has achieved. The main aim of the Provo’s was to bring down Stormont and this as we all agree happened , they then wanted face to face talks with the British this they also achieved , and last but not least they wanted and craved for the elusive United Ireland which they did not and cannot now achieve , they cannot achieve because the Provo’s are gone ?. Now these were the three main aims of the armed struggle .
Which all point to a resounding success for the Unionist people . Stormont never was in a stronger position, the Sinn Fein leadership are now fighting tooth and nail to keep the holy land open ,
If the whole issue of sharing power with Sinn Fein is a loss I really think your judgement is clouded , Sinn Fein could have entered Stormont under the old system so really Robert what have you lost and what has the republican people gained .

Liam, Enjoying this article immensely - impatient...

2010-07-29T22:34:28.923+01:00

Liam,

Enjoying this article immensely - impatiently awaiting the concluding part. Flawless presentation of your case and an incontrovertible indictment, from a Republican perspective, of the provisional movement. Very well researched and all the more comprehensive for that. As a Unionist therein lies my problem - the roll over of the Provisionals has been too comprehensive.
The observation that,"the Unionists have won, they just don’t know it.", is entirely correct. Unionist's failure to recognise the outcome of the conflict is largely due to Sinn Fein's presence in government but moreover their continued electoral success.
My one and only criticism would be your underestimation of Unionist compromise as per the Belfast Agreement. Cross border bodies and power sharing with a then armed and illegal organisation were enormous issues for Unionism, hence the fall of Trimble and the electoral meltdown of the Ulster Unionist party.