Comments on The Pensive Quill: No One is Safe

Belfast Bookworm, we are running a piece tonight ...

2012-10-29T21:15:24.203Z

Belfast Bookworm,

we are running a piece tonight from her blog which indirectly touches on some of the issues we have been discussing.

Belfast Bookworm, As I pointed out people are sil...

2012-10-29T20:47:08.042Z

Belfast Bookworm,

As I pointed out people are silent on a lot of things. Is it a complicit silence? I don’t believe so. She wants the universalisation of rights. Has she sought to prevent the emergence of knowledge about these despicable actions? I have no reason to believe she has. Many human rights activists have a particular focus which does not detract from the universality of the rights issue. If they try to thwart that universalism then for sure there is a problem. Theocrats abuse rights and she calls them out on it. That is a good thing. Others will hammer the West for the abuse of rights of Muslims but don’t go for hammering the theocrats. Is this wrong? I don’t feel it necessarily is although I can see how it might be or might be construed as being. If either seek to prevent rights issues being discussed I think it is a serious problem. I don’t claim to have the best perspective on this, just the best that I can manage to obtain with the evidence available. Ultimately, I could be wrong. But there is no one template that I can choose and place it over the issue. Nothing fits perfectly in this area.

We find a lot of discourse from republicans about prisoners’ rights but we rarely take up the case of loyalist prisoners having their rights abused. But we would never advocate abuse of their rights or seek to suppress emergence of knowledge about such abuses. We are the products of our past which shapes our interests. How much ground can we cover? And if were to lobby on these areas there will be some area left out that we have failed to cover.

To make a comparison - that would be like you pointing out the lies, double standards, dirty tricks and cover ups of the Brits but ignoring the same from PSF.

If we deliberately ignored for the purpose of being complicit in the silence, yes. If we didn’t address, rather than deliberately ignored, because we have a focus and a history that prioritises certain areas of interest then, no. Were we to complain about the Brits and deny republican abuses or suppress evidence of such abuses then, yes.

I don’t come close to having all the answers, simply trying to think my way through the issues as you raise them.

If a person is as principled as they say they are, have the integrity they say they do, then they should be willing to examine all sides of any issue no matter how uncomfortable it makes them and tell the truth.

I think there was a debate about this in the 70s – around the role of intellectuals as they were called. Some felt that they should stick to particular areas where they had expertise and experience while others felt they should give universal ethical leadership. There are probably pros and cons for both. Despite what I have argued here I instinctively feel the second approach is probably the best one.

I understand that people have interests in certain issues and spend their lives addressing it, ignoring or not paying much attention to issues that touch them less but really, if women's rights, and Arab women's rights are
really what concerns Maryam then surely it should be the rights of ALL women - not just those used and abused by Islamic extremists?

Again it is the ground that can be covered. She could release a statement in more universal terms as I suspect she has but might be accused of tokenism. If she did more she might be accused of not doing enough.

In my view she raises issues that need raised and does not interfere with or seek to suppress others trying to raise other issues. For many that is not ideal, but progressive nonetheless.

Anthony; you've not said much I wouldn't a...

2012-10-29T19:13:37.663Z

Anthony; you've not said much I wouldn't agree with there.

I accept that dissenting voices are lambasted at every turn but I think I've made a very good example Maryam's apparent silence on the rape of the Iraqi and Afghan women. She purports to be a human rights activist lobbying and campaigning for the end of mistreatment/crimes against Muslim women. Brilliant. She is to be commended for this. But she focuses (seemingly) wholly on these crimes perpertrated by Islamic fundamentalist.

Her sisters in Afghanistan and Iraq are being raped and tortured and murdered by so-called peacekeeping troops but she is silent?

To make a comparison - that would be like you pointing out the lies, double standards, dirty tricks and cover ups of the Brits but ignoring the same from PSF.

If a person is as principled as they say they are, have the integrity they say they do, then they should be willing to examine all sides of any issue - no matter how uncomfortable it makes them and tell the truth.

I understand that people have interests in certain issues and spend their lives addressing it, ignoring or not paying much attention to issues that touch them less but really, if women's rights, and Arab women's rights are really what concerns Maryam then surely it should be the rights of ALL women - not just those used and abused by Islamic extremists?

The whole truth around any issue is what matters.

Anthony, I sometimes do that, make hasty decision...

2012-10-29T18:45:39.642Z

Anthony,

I sometimes do that, make hasty decisions and judgements

Do you know anybody who doesn’t? For me, every day of the week.

I don’t think linkage works well in matters like this. The case you make against her can be made against any dissenting voice – that it does not dissent from this or that. I know from experience that when we dissented we were criticised for not highlighting the same thing somewhere else. But we were the products of a certain context, had our interests prioritised by experience and operated within that framework. We evolved along the lines of what defined us and for that reason asked questions of the SF narrative. We were simply unable to champion every issue. I think it a human trait to press the buttons close to us. I look on it a bit like funerals – we go to those closest to us but not them all. But because we don’t go does not amount to being indifferent to the fate of the person. Same as speaking out against clerical child abuse in the Catholic Church – the accusation is thrown that we don’t do it for other churches. We hardly approve of it and are of a view that our objection would be universalised.

There are a multiplicity of just causes and an array of actors promoting and profiling them. And as long as no one is preventing them being covered.

It may be much the same for Maryam. She is the product of her own background and argues within that framework. I would be very concerned were she saying the rape and torture of Afghan and
Iraqi women by US and British troops wasn’t happening or was justified. Or if she worked to dissuade others from highlighting these causes. A few years back when I was writing about and working on the Palestine issue the matter of the Danish cartoons came up. That came to capture my interest for a number of reasons. Setting aside the issue of free inquiry and freedom of expression it seemed to me that ultimately Muslims needed their human rights protected not just from Israel but from Islamic theocrats as well. Yet we were lambasted by some friends in the SWP. I can sort of live with the SWP not taking up the issue – one of them later told me it was because they needed to strengthen their alliance with Respect – but that they would seek to silence us (failed hopelessly in their efforts) put them in a position of selectively defending the rights of Muslims. The same people later tried it with Mick Hall on Organised Rage when he hit out at persecution of women in Iran or somewhere. They wanted criticisms of these practices suppressed.

If Maryam was doing that I would go along with your critique but I have seen nothing of that. There is a range of reasons people don’t comment on issues: if silence was a conscious act of complicity that would cause a serious problem. If it was because there are other fish to fry, it becomes less of a problem.

I am not sure that my rule of thumb holds in all circumstances. There is no one size fits all template. I think we have to make judgement calls and those calls will meet with mixture of approval and disapproval. Not ideal but it is what it is

Despite your best efforts you have not persuaded me. Despite my best efforts I have not persuaded you. But that’s discussion for you. Can’t say it didn’t give me cause to reflect.

I see the Israeli lobby is trying to silence Vincent Browne at the minute! The moral blackmail employed was brazen. In some ways it touches on the issues we have been exploring here. He refused to apologise. Good for him.

Marty, he is a good guy. Always very witty. Pew a...

2012-10-29T12:48:16.199Z

Marty,

he is a good guy. Always very witty. Pew acted deaf as well as blind that night.

TR; I appreciate your support on this but I wasn&#...

2012-10-29T07:34:33.276Z

TR; I appreciate your support on this but I wasn't backtracking or apologising. I said I would never have a problem in doing so if I was persuaded my views were in fact wrong or misplaced.

I honestly don't think the views I expressed were met with prejudice or inconsistency - they wrre just different from mine.

I enjoyed the debate and no doubt both 'sides' of it have given some food for thought to others. It certainly did me.

On that note... I still think I'm right :-))

Belfast Bookworm' You have nothing, in any of...

2012-10-29T03:28:51.877Z

Belfast Bookworm'

You have nothing, in any of your posts on this topic to 'backtrack' on, nor apologise for.
Your very concise and erudite analysis, of this grotesque womans' monologue on human rights and Islam, has been greeted on this blog, with both prejudice and inconsistency, and in this I find no surprise.
You will appreciate, with time, as I have over many years, that to express an opinion, that even caresses the boundaries of zionist revisionist history, contemporary or otherwise, you enter a 'cold place', even amongst friends.

To begin to see Islamic culture as more than something that is measured by western standards, the meticulously crafted, usually jewish, spin machine will immediately lapse into its disingenuous fusillade of aspersions, beneath the banner of its cynical credo - 'anti-semitism'. And this is why people like this self-serving bigot Maryam, will pander to their myths and conveniently ignore the crimes of judaism and it's accolites in the truculent satellite countries of the Corporate West.
Sadly, even our own countrymen, as dispossessed as the Palestinians, as we are, are mesmerised and mindlocked by negative media manipulation and are unable to detoxify self-deception, as some of the comments on this thread reveal.
It took me a very long time, - decades - to get it. But when I'd gotten it, I was sad to learn that almost nobody else had.

Anthony; I said she was a tool of the west based o...

2012-10-28T14:27:17.003Z

Anthony; I said she was a tool of the west based on her blanket criticism of Islam that I read in the post you reproduced in this blog.

When the discussion grew I was in no doubt that her take on veiling would be the bog-standard Western bullshit that we've come to hear so much about. She didn't disappoint.

As the debate deepened you persuaded me that I was being very judgemental of her, based on just my interpretations of her views of Islam and veiling. I sometimes do that, make hasty decisions and judgements - but I've no problem in backtracking, apologising or whatever, if I find something else that changes my mind.
In this case though, I can only find other things (like the issues I mentioned in previous post) that strenghthen my opinion.

I also went looking for her writings on the rape and torture of afghan and Iraqi women by US and British troops but can find absolutely nothing. That's not to say she hasnt commented - I just can't find anything. What I did find though was a lot of stuff about rape within the military - by soldiers against female soldiers, but nothing on the rape of Arab women by 'outsiders'.

Perhaps this is not a 'sexy' enough subject?

I also

Belfast Bookworm, I don’t know what her views ar...

2012-10-28T14:02:36.929Z

Belfast Bookworm,

I don’t know what her views are on Palestine or Guantanamo Bay for that matter but it seems to be that it is a better critique to challenge her narrative on such things than to dismiss her as a tool of the West. In its own way that too is to throw the proverbial baby out.

Anthony; 'If she believes it to be bad and c...

2012-10-28T13:45:19.614Z

Anthony;

'If she believes it to be bad and corrupt then she has the right to say it'

Absolutely. You have given me the phrase I've been searching for in all this. I believe she's throwing the baby out with the bath water. That is all. And I think it's unfair.

I googled some more of her writings there - really on things I have a personal interest in; Palestine, Guantanamo Bay. The usual lefty stuff.

On Palestine and more specifically on Palestinian resistance, Maryam says the resistance movement is a product of both Israeli occupation and political Islam.

I absolutely refute that. Palestinian resistance is borne out of occupation..and I can't see why Maryam can't have just left this at Israeli occupation. She talks about the US beng complicit in Israeli atrocities which is of course correct but seriously, throwing Islam into the mix here - yet again??

On Guantanamo Bay - there's a lot of stuff around Mozzam Begg. She highlights the torture of him only as a 'but'.. 'But he's an Islamic terrorist'

To me, she's really a 'one side is as bad as the other' kind of girl. Not my cup of tea at all.

Belfast Bookworm, If she believes it to be bad an...

2012-10-28T12:34:41.632Z

Belfast Bookworm,

If she believes it to be bad and corrupt then she can say it. She is hardly alone in this. The most widely viewed British comedian online is absolutely hostile to it.

I think the approach to take to this type of critique is to resist being persuaded by it until there is proof. I have never been convinced that the critique of Islam is anywhere near as strong as it is sometimes made out to be. I think it is a seriouis deficiency in the argument of Maryam and others like Ayaan Hirshi Ali (who is right wing and would seem to have no problem with the neo conservative analysis). They are atheists and because of religious persecution have taken a critical stance against the religion they grew up under. I think that colours the analysis and lends itself to the baby being thrown out with the bathwater.

My own view is that all religions should be treated equally - as bodies of opinion with no privileged status.

Anthony; it absolutely has to be said. My problem ...

2012-10-28T11:37:37.980Z

Anthony; it absolutely has to be said. My problem doesn't lie with Maryam saying it, screaming it even, my problem lies with the indiscrimination of it: Islam is bad and corrupt. As I said earlier, I believe Islam is not bad and corrupt. I believe it has been manipulated for badness and has become corrupt. Just like communism. The veiling issue was another thing that doesnt sit easy with me but I've absolutely no problem with anyone pointing out any regime is evil. I welcome that.

Belfast Bookworm, Not much to disagree with here....

2012-10-28T09:56:14.523Z

Belfast Bookworm,

Not much to disagree with here.

But what if it is a terrible regime, should it not be said?

Anthony; I would consider myself to be on the left...

2012-10-28T09:42:11.212Z

Anthony; I would consider myself to be on the left of most things but I am not stupid enough to think that my enemy's enemy is naturally my friend and would never want to brush anything under the carpet even if it makes me uncomfortable or doesn't fit with my overall opinion of something.

I despise the Taliban, just as Maryam does. They're evil and hateful and corrupt. Just like the superpowers of the US and Britain. I don't think the Taliban are as smart as the superpowers though, certainly not in terms of managing and organising propaganda anyway.

'No one in the world given to critical reflection will think Iran shall be bombed to protect women'

No, but when it does happen it'll be a lot more palatable and therefore justifiable for the majority of those who can't think for themselves as they're being fed only the words of people like Maryam; terrible place, terrible regime, we've really done them a favour.

Belfast Bookworm, I can’t say you are wrong about...

2012-10-28T09:10:42.560Z

Belfast Bookworm,

I can’t say you are wrong about Kate Adie. I can only say I never got that impression from her when I met her. I recall Morrison criticising her but the rule of thumb when applied there is simple: what he says is possibly true but probably not and in the absence of independent corroborating evidence to support what he says just disbelieve him. That rule will not let you down, trust me.

I think in your criticism of Maryam too much is being inferred from too little. The point is we don’t know what paid work she does. The example of West Belfast might extend to everywhere else but it might not. Unless we can join the dots it remains speculative. Committees are a dime a dozen. People used to allege the Blanket was a well paying enterprise. Not a penny was made through the Blanket. It does not mean that you are wrong but that the case is unproven.

I don't believe that anything is beyond the realms of possibility.

If so, some things are on the outer limits of possibility, and some are more likely. I think we need to work with what is probable rather than likely without ever discounting the potential possibility.

I didn’t find too many buying into what I was saying early on. I found it a pretty lonely experience. I recall telling Richard O’Rawe before he published his first book he needed to be sure that he could do solitary first, as that is the way it would be for him. Quite a few have bought into it now with the benefit of experience: which is probably the best way to approach these things rather than rush out to embrace every new critique. There was always a few who thought I had got it close to the mark and would say to me in private. Most I felt, were prepared to go along with whatever line the leadership threw out. Look at how many believed the guff about decommissioning!

It is up to you how you interpret Maryam Namazie. It is just an interpretation I don’t share. I have not seen her promote a false narrative, reporting executions or stonings that did not happen. Some on the left don’t want these things discussed in the public domain but shoved under the carpet. I think they should be discussed. It is a more fruitful venture, I think, to question her conceptual framework which seems black and white, lacking in the grey that is so necessary to understanding life as it is lived.

No one in the world given to critical reflection will think Iran shall be bombed to protect women. The US would not bomb Rwanda to save women or children. Why would they do it in Iran? Whatever they bomb it for it will not be that, even if they send women pilots over to blast the women hating clerics along the way. It will be just a mask.

Anthony; I don't believe - or at least I have ...

2012-10-28T07:47:05.172Z

Anthony; I don't believe - or at least I have no evidence that Mayram is in paid jobs. My point is that most quangos, trusts, committees, boards, etc rely on funding from somewhere or at least rely on some sort of statutory approval or sanctioning in order to exist and grow. Not all - but most.

Take this down to a micro level in west Belfast for example. All the campaigning bodies, committees, groups, projects. Who runs them? Whose people are in place on them? Who funds them? Whose agenda are they driving? if you know the answer to that you could perhaps apply it to any community or society.

Control is at the crux of everything. Did the CIA not fund the Mujahideen way back when? I don't believe that anything is beyond the realms of possibility.

I know better than most what kind of dirt the 'real establishment' can sling at people who dissent, know the lies their capable of telling.

I know what you were accused of. some people couldn't wait to tell how you were making a fortune and getting your NUJ card and while loads wanted to believe that, there were loads of people who chose not to. Who chose to scratch the surface and see what was behind Anthony McIntyre, see if what he was saying had any truth. Many bought into what you were saying early on - me included, I could see it for myself, but many had to wait for things to come to pass, as all things do with time.

Perhaps my take on Maryam Namazie will change. But when the yanks bomb Iran and the world buries its head, excuse the bombing by saying it was necessary to end the horrible acts perpetrated against women I will know I'm right. I'll take no satisfaction from that though.

Hes a mate of mine as well a cara grew up with him...

2012-10-27T19:30:16.539+01:00

Hes a mate of mine as well a cara grew up with him and his DA!

Belfast Bookworm, I know what the play was. It se...

2012-10-27T19:16:11.985+01:00

Belfast Bookworm,

I know what the play was. It seemed to work alright. But I thought the point about being a conscious agent was important to raise. It has come up on this blog before. What right jobs and right social circles does Maryam have that depend on state approval? The only social circle I ever met her in was at the atheist conference in Dublin last year. I know she serves on various committees but they seem to be self generated or rooted in civil society rather than the state. Admittedly, I don't follow it that closely to know for certain. Being invited to speak at the World Atheist Convention and such like is not some major venture dependant on state funding. We more or less financed it ourselves with 100 euro a head. I got it as a birthday present from my wife!!

I do know that I was accused of being on the university circuit in Ireland and England and making heaps of money from it and my writing. I was told I could only speak on the BBC because I made the right noises or that I wrote for the 'establishment media' because the Brits wanted to use me. Rubbish but it is the type of thing the powerful like to say about people who dissent. And of course to top it all Denis Donaldson would brief the press that myself and Tommy Gorman were doing the work of the Brits. What a brass neck. But it is what they do.

It was indeed Marty. How did you know that?

2012-10-27T18:59:24.027+01:00

It was indeed Marty. How did you know that?

Anthony; I was attempting to be sarcastic saying p...

2012-10-27T18:59:07.403+01:00

Anthony; I was attempting to be sarcastic saying perhaps she didn't know.. A 'play' on her attitude towards the Muslim women she claims to represent or advocate for.

I understand what you're saying re; an agent having to know they're an agent.. And to be honest, I am not convinced that Maryam doesn't not know. As I said earlier, she's making all the right noises and being rewarded by being allowed to move in all the right social circles and getting promoted to all the right jobs. That simply wouldn't happen if she was rattling any cages. When and if she ever did, you can be sure that she would disappear from every board, trust, committee or whatever.

Re: Kate Adie. I wasn't sure if it was her or not. I'll trust your judgement that that wasn't her form. I shouldn't have went on to say Adie and her ilk in such a derogatory way without being sure.

That happened though, and I was drawing comparisons between the media then criminalising and dehumanising us and the media now doing the same to Islamists.

Belfast Bookworm/Marty, I never got that from her...

2012-10-27T18:34:08.938+01:00

Belfast Bookworm/Marty,

I never got that from her either. I recall Morrison saying something critical of her once and I assumed that because he said it it must not be true.

Belfast Bookworm,

What I don't support is dissent for dissents sake or dissent for
self-serving interests.

Anybody who has ever dissented has faced that accusation. Those being dissented from invariably ascribe only negative motives to dissent.

Belfast Bookworm a cara I met Kate Adie a few time...

2012-10-27T17:58:27.403+01:00

Belfast Bookworm a cara I met Kate Adie a few times I didnt detect that attitude.

Belfast Bookworm, I think this happens to us all ...

2012-10-27T17:27:18.622+01:00

Belfast Bookworm,

I think this happens to us all in terms of what we read. We find a book that gels with our own view and give it a certain status. I guess that is why I like to see the critical reviews of any book. It always helps me learn more. I like the work of Naomi Klein myself but again what she said about South Africa gelled with my own view of it.

Perhaps Maryam Namazie doesn't even know she's an agent of influence?

Which really defeats the purpose in using the term. Agent is the important term. An agent of influence would have to be consciously working for the other side. This is why I don't think it applies to all those Shinners who spread Brit ideas. Two people can push the same idea but one could be an agent and the other not. If we use only the 'uknowingly' criterion we would accuse them all of being agents of influence.

A 'dupe' and an agent are two entirely different categories. And again here, I reject any suggestion that Maryam is a dupe. She is a very intelligent woman raising the issues that should be addressed, whether it be gays being persecuted or women being stoned. These things happen and should be highlighted. That does not mean she her critique of Islam is correct. I think the failure to differentiate is very dubious.

When we ran the cartoons we faced accusations of racism. Bunkum, but there we go.

'If you want a picture of the future, imagine ...

2012-10-27T14:48:17.464+01:00

'If you want a picture of the future, imagine a boot stamping on a 'muslim' face - forever'. George Orwell.

Marty, I believe dissent is good. I support it - p...

2012-10-27T14:00:59.951+01:00

Marty, I believe dissent is good. I support it - particularly those dissenters from mainstream republicanism. In fact, I am one.

What I don't support is dissent for dissents sake or dissent for self-serving interests.

I have a vague memory as a child where I thnk it was Kate Adie reporting from the wake house or funeral of one of the hunger strikers. I don't remember much but she was saying something about the dirt of the place, the bedraggled children and my father said 'and that's the point.'

I didn't know what ths meant until years later but that vague memory always stuck with me.

Kate Adie and her ilk had demonised us so much, presented us as subhuman that if ordinary British people ever stopped to consider what the hell their young people were doing over here getting blown to bits they would be reassured that that the army were only trying to help, only trying to tame the natives and save them from that awful crowd the IRA. Maryam is no different in my eyes from Adie.

She's Iran's version of Mairead Maguire.