Comments on The Pensive Quill: The Provisional Irish Republican Army And The Mora...

Mackers, so relieved that I have eventually got s...

2011-11-02T18:07:43.985Z

Mackers,
so relieved that I have eventually got something right.
Knew I would get there in the end!

Nuala, your da was totally right. I think I said ...

2011-11-02T14:49:08.500Z

Nuala,

your da was totally right. I think I said to you before that we set up a core position which we hope to stay close to. We can go as far as 49 steps away from it and still be on the right side. 51 steps and we are on the other side. There are no easy choices. Yet you are so right in my view in arguing for a moral perspective. Without it there is only might and anything goes.

Mackers, my da used to say, 'If our sins were...

2011-11-02T11:58:25.415Z

Mackers,
my da used to say, 'If our sins were written across our foreheads how many of us could seriously point a finger?'
I for one would have run out of foreheads many, many years ago.
I do believe however, that even in the most extreme and perplexing circumstances we have to hope that a degree of morality comes to the fore.
If it doesn't, something less appetizing will quickly fill the void.

Nuala, these moral discussions set the bar. But l...

2011-11-01T16:46:24.893Z

Nuala,

these moral discussions set the bar. But like yourself I doubt if it can ever be jumped over. Even in the much less trying circumstances of everyday life we can't behave like we might want to, in a way that we know to be ethically right. There are too many constraints and challenges and we simply don't have the fortitude it requires to walk 'morally upright' all the time. I always liked Orwell's take that we want to be good but not too good and not all the time. I think that sums up the most of us. Yet the moral discussion is vital as it allows us to reflect on things and possibly open us up to new ways of looking at things. Because we might consider a moral argument, it does not follow that we can abide by it.

Here is an Irish anarchist analysis of the Libyan ...

2011-10-25T13:11:37.292+01:00

Here is an Irish anarchist analysis of the Libyan situation. Although rather long it is very deatailed and looks at the case for and against intervention and the response from the wider left and republicans. I dont think its as black and white as the debate goes on.

http://www.wsm.ie/c/gaddafi-lessons-libya-imperialism-democratic-revolution

Sean Matthews

Alec, it was less a case of referencing sources t...

2011-10-25T08:41:28.873+01:00

Alec,

it was less a case of referencing sources than it was having saved the text from way back in March. I was actually more interested in the arguments for and against interventionism than the specifics of Libya per se and kept the piece for later reading.

To be fair I don't even know the nature of what you said are legitimate demands for reform as I have not watched it closely, only in passing. Some things capture the attention and others don't for whatever reason. If you are right and the demands were legitimate he made a terrible mistake by not moving. Tyrant or not it was not any despotism on his part that got him bombed.

I simply never trust Western interventionism. You and I both discussed the Rwandan situation - if ever there was a case for intervention it was there. The US and UN did everything to avoid it. France intervened but on the side of Hutu Power who were behind the genocide.

Alec- I think you are right about libya it will b...

2011-10-24T23:48:50.338+01:00

Alec-

I think you are right about libya
it will be a long time before there is peace there or even something close to peace- to many people with guns on the streets- to many children with guns- they won a war against Gaddafi- now they are going to think that the gun will win them new battles- nobody is going to remove the gun from them-

Mackers, I don't have your ability to referen...

2011-10-24T23:38:29.984+01:00

Mackers,

I don't have your ability to reference sources but I have come across a lot of credible commentary on the internet that disputes the notion of a 'popular uprising'. I will try to source some of it for you though I doubt whether you have the time to view it.

Whatever the truth of the matter, there can be no doubting the pivotal role played by the NATO intervention in all of this. Quite simply, Gaddafi would still be in power today were it not for the firepower of NATO. The rebel forces would never have possessed the material nor weapons capability to overthrow him.

Gaddffi should have did the clever thing by responding positively to the legitimate demands for radical reforms being made by a sizable section to society. His refusal to do so created a volatile situation which presented the perfect opportunity for NATO and others to exploit. After more than forty years of unfettered power he should have stepped down and allowed for a new arrangement.

Organise, you make some valid points which also h...

2011-10-24T23:01:55.652+01:00

Organise,

you make some valid points which also highlight the hypocrisy of the west in their dealings with Gaddafi. Either he was a monster, in which case he should have been totally ostracized, or he was the leader of a country with extensive oil reserves, in which case his sins were wholly forgivable in the bigger scheme of things.

He was far from a prefect and dictatorial leadership earned him the fear and antipathy of many Libyans. However, I doubt whether those who will replace him will succeed in making Libya a better place.

In relation to the Gadaffi regime, many republican...

2011-10-24T19:34:59.127+01:00

In relation to the Gadaffi regime, many republicans and the wider left forget the fact that in the last decade his regime was armed and financed by the west. He opened up his country to western oil companies and his forces to training from western security agencies such as the PSNI and laid of the red carpet for gangsters such as Mr Blair. To be honest I have little sympathy for the way he was finished off as he has shown little sympathy for the innocent victims killed and maimed under his regime. Its just a shame the leaders of the 'free world' were not lined up beside him.

Sean(Not Organise!)

Alec, I haven’t followed it that closely. I do re...

2011-10-24T17:30:36.499+01:00

Alec,

I haven’t followed it that closely. I do recall that back in March there was a debate in the Nation hosted by Amy Goodman in which two US professors discussed the issue of intervention. Both claimed to be from the Left. Juan Cole defended it while Vijay Prashad opposed it. Both however agreed it was a popular uprising. Prashad, who was very critical of western intervention, said Gadaffi had for long been a reactionary leader. Both Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch reported disappearances. The accuracy of it all I have no real idea. That is why I said ‘if.’ I have no definitive views on the matter other than I am mistrustful of Western interventions.

What always annoys me about the West is this is why it never intervened in Rwanda.

Anthony its been said many times before but its th...

2011-10-24T16:09:03.412+01:00

Anthony its been said many times before but its the truth,the west always intervine only when it suits their interest ,like the acquisition of oil,had Lybia noting more to offer than carrots then they would have sat by and watched the uprising fizzle out within days.

Mackers "If his people didn't want him h...

2011-10-24T16:09:01.866+01:00

Mackers

"If his people didn't want him he should have gone"

This is far from the truth. Gaddafi enjoyed support right across the country and still does. Because of this, I believe, Libya is doomed to a experience continuing civil war. The prerequisite of legitimacy will haunt the NTC due to the major role of NATO in overthrowing the regime.

Where is the evidence that Gaddafi disappeared people? Ironically, if he did do this then it was at the behest of the western powers in the form of renditions. Most of the allegations against him have yet to be supported by hard facts.

I believe a day will come in the future when the Libyan people will look back on the Gaddafi era with a sense of nostalgia and regret. The oil pirates and land grabbers will rob the country of its resources and the people will lose all the of the constitutional benefits/rights enjoyed under the 'great dictator'.

Marty, I think there is much to be said for that....

2011-10-24T13:23:45.124+01:00

Marty,

I think there is much to be said for that.

Nuala,

I am inherently suspicious of intervention by the West. In principle I could go along with it if it were for the right reasons, like stopping genocide in Rwanda. But it never seems to happen like that.

Alec,

I have not followed it to the extent that you have. If his people didn't want him he should have gone. If he was behaving like Pinochet diasappearing and torturing people, he should also have been made to go. The West blurs everything here. How can France claim to be so interested in helping the 'oppressed' of Libya after its appalling role in the Rwandan genocide?

Anthony I agree with Alfie a cara the summary exec...

2011-10-24T12:19:23.862+01:00

Anthony I agree with Alfie a cara the summary execution of Gaddafi may speak volumes of the new Libya,he should have be giving the right to face his accusers in a court of law,but maybe there are those who wouldnt want to hear Gaddafi,s side of the story,and made sure he didnt get to tell it.

Mackers, NATO intervention or cloaked imperialism...

2011-10-24T12:10:57.865+01:00

Mackers,
NATO intervention or cloaked imperialism, I think the latter.
How come, none of these super powers ever go into the poorer regions of the world to absolve them from tyrannical rule?
Tyrants only appear to be tyrants in countries where vast wealth can still be accessed.

I totally disagree with the contention that Gaddaf...

2011-10-24T11:49:42.709+01:00

I totally disagree with the contention that Gaddafi was deposed by a popular uprising of the Libyan people. What begun as a legitimate demand for political reform was soon to become a NATO supported insurgency with regime change as the overall objective. At all times there was significant support for Gaddafi and a lot of that support remains even after his death.

There is a lot of political commentary available that challenges the theory now being postulated that Gaddafi was an absolute tyrant who robbed his people. Using any index Libya tops the list for living standards and provision in that region. With a literacy rate of 83%, free medical care, free education, free housing, free electricity, and so much more, it is clear the wealth generated from the oil was used largely to benefit the people as a whole.

For forty years the western powers done everything it their power to undermine support for Gaddafi and to bring down his government. They plotted and planned to destroy a regime that they could not control and one that posed a serious threat to their interests in the region. At the first sign of popular unrest America, Britain and France jumped at the chance to get rid of this thorn.

Alfie, I merely posed the question. His beating a...

2011-10-24T08:31:55.788+01:00

Alfie,

I merely posed the question. His beating and death were terrible and without justification. But you answer the question from the point of view of somebody who supports the NATO intervention. The question was addressed to the perspective that opposes NATO's intervention. I just wonder how that perspective would deal with it.

Anthony, "What do you think should have b...

2011-10-23T23:23:40.133+01:00
Anthony,

"What do you think should have been the outcome? ... If he had survived what if anything in terms of justice should he have faced?"

But does anyone deserve being beaten before getting a bullet in the head? Surely the rebels could have shown they were better than Gadafy by treating him humanely and putting him on trial. And it does not exactly inspire trust in the new regime in Libya when they put out the ridiculous claim that Gadafy was killed in "crossfire". Arresting and imprisoning Gadafy would have been a much more potent symbol that things were changing for the better in the Middle East. I say this as someone who supports the Arab Spring and the NATO intervention in Libya.

Paedar, I think I would have been as emotionally c...

2011-10-23T19:00:30.845+01:00
Paedar,
I think I would have been as emotionally charged as anyone that day. I had known Big Dan all my life and we were also charged together.
I knew both Maried Farrell and Kevin Brady quite well so I was not detached from the people or the events of that week.
Like so many other people I had witnessed what had taken place in Milltown cemetery, the trauma and the horror, yet I felt sick to the pit of my stomach at those two deaths, still do.
I understand your reasoning in relation to Sean Monaghan who suffered an unspeakable cruelty.
However, I don't think morality in this context can be viewed as a situational concept, I believe it is either in a person or it is not.

watching the whitehouse gang observing murder live...

2011-10-23T15:07:10.526+01:00
watching the whitehouse gang observing murder live on tv tells us about western morality. uk calling for enquiry on gadaffi killing; that old routine is threadbare. U.N. are trash, identify a target+execute is their function these days.

if the rebels in libya are anti rendition that would be surprising.

Gaddafi was to involved with the yanks and brits o...

2011-10-23T09:36:38.487+01:00
Gaddafi was to involved with the yanks and brits on rendition of suspected militants and there torture he was never getting out alive.

Marty, what do you think should have been the out...

2011-10-23T08:58:27.108+01:00
Marty,

what do you think should have been the outcome? His death was brutal. Set aside all the malign and self serving motives of the West, it seems clear his society rejected him and wanted change. If he had survived what if anyhing in terms of justice should he have faced?

The talk on the early news this morning "what...

2011-10-23T07:11:41.011+01:00
The talk on the early news this morning "what to do with Gaddafi,s body" no morals there eh!how about giving it back to his family .

Robert a cara who was the bigger terrorist B liar ...

2011-10-23T05:30:59.892+01:00
Robert a cara who was the bigger terrorist B liar or Gaddafi?