Comments on The Pensive Quill: Gerry Adams Retirement?

Mick, a thoughtful piece. I am not persuaded by...

2013-06-02T10:24:29.756+01:00

Mick,

a thoughtful piece.

I am not persuaded by the notion that he deserves praise for being committed to his own cause. He should be observed for that not lauded. Harold Shipman was devoted to his but ...

As for the analogy with Churchill, if I recall Waltzer discusses Churchill's position on Coventry in his book on Just War theory. Placed within the context of what Bomber Harris was doing to German civilians, Churchill was one of a murderous breed. Had he the right to sacrifice the lives of Coventry civilians? I don't believe he had. That said he was operating under constraints of a much greater nature than Adams during the hunger strike. The decision to abandon the hunger strikers and set them up for sure death was done for what? Some political or personal advantage. It was not to the good of the struggle, the Irish people or anything other than blatant self interest.

We will never agree that there are any extenuating circumstances for what these people did to the hunger strikers. The moment for allowing that as a possibility has long since passed.

Adams and his sidekick McGuinness are Hume and Fit...

2013-05-26T16:58:42.589+01:00

Adams and his sidekick McGuinness are Hume and Fitt with blood on their hands. I've heard it claimed a few times that we have Adams to thank because the bad old days of Unionist rule have gone for ever.

With all respect that's balls!

The Orange State was shut down in 1972 and Direct Rule was introduced.
In 1973 we had Sunningdale which was in effect the GFA, including the...'If in the future the majority of the people of Northern Ireland...etc' bit.

Gerry Fitt was Deputy - yep Deputy - Chief Executive to Faulkner's Chief Executive.

And michaelhenry thousands of people were voting for the SDLP.

I've also heard it said in relation to those times that had Republicans taken the political route back then Unionists wouldn't have accepted them.

Aye right. Sure the Shinners were left standing in nothing but their Y-Fronts having conceded every Republican principle including the surrender of arms before the Unionists who retained their veto finally accepted them in recent years.
In fact Unionists keep a leash tightly around SF's neck in that it is demanded they use the old condemnatory verbiage of the SDLP when attacking Republicans.

They have become the most powerful propaganda weapon in the hands of the British in probably the whole history of Republicanism.

And they are dependent on British money/ funding to keep the grassroots in the North faithful otherwise we'd see a hell of a lot more abandon ship.

If Adams is anything he's a carpetbagger who fucked off South leaving West Belfast among the most under deprived areas in the UK.... Yep the UK who haven't gone away.

Fionnuala Like Alec I have to go out, but will r...

2013-05-26T16:33:45.678+01:00

Fionnuala

Like Alec I have to go out, but will return to the thread later.

However I wish to be clear on one point, when I wrote 'Committed to his cause,'I meant just that HIS cause, as I do not believe he is able to distinguish between the best interest of his party, etc, and his own.It happens to all who linger at the top to long. Its why such politicians almost always end up being pushed out by there own colleagues.

Mick, This was an excellent post but you appear t...

2013-05-26T15:43:30.921+01:00

Mick,
This was an excellent post but you appear to be writing about a different Adams and a different party that the one I have have come to know.
'Committed to his cause' No Mick I can't agree with that because realistically I have no idea who or what Adams is currently committed to?
As for the incorruptibilty and commitment within his party knowing no equal in Ireland or England, I can't agree with that either?
Many within Sinn Fein are the very essence of corruption, no doubt there are those who are incredibly committed but to what?
I have seen incredible commitment amongst Eirigi and other socialist Republican parties and I have seen it in equal measures and with a lot more integrity than I have seen within Sinn Fein.
Nor did Adams carry the Movement with him intact. Adams fragmented the Republican Movement and caused rifts that get deeper by the day.
What he carried forward in his Movement was a litany of ruptured and rebranded strands of IRA creed that are now finely tuned to fit in with the new dispensation.
As Brendan Hughes, metaphorically pointed out. 'The boat sailed leaving the people behind standing in the dirt and the muck and the sand.'
Adams dropped the people who put him where he is today.
Clinton may have done little for middle America but Adams done less for West Belfast and he will do just as little for Louth.
Social and economic deprivation soared under his watch and yes we have peace but it came at a sizeable price.
Adams the prosperous statesman sails on while the people are left with not one single promise Adams made ever fulfilled.

My response to you was never meant to be a hurling of abuse.
I still don't know how anyone especially someone who writes with such conviction about so many relevant things could cast a single accolade in the direction of Gerry Adams.
Maybe like Ms Streisand there are many who view Adams through a well airbrushed lense

Regards to you also.

There is a lot in this article I strongly challeng...

2013-05-26T14:44:30.811+01:00

There is a lot in this article I strongly challenge. Overall, it portrays an agreeable picture of Gerry as a great leader of men with understandable human shortcomings. . The "shit general, but decent politician" description sounds about right in the round. Certainly, his "achievements" are to be found in the world of politics rather than that of the armed struggle. But what was his cause? What motivated this man from the early days of the civil rights movement? Was Gerry a Republican in the tradition of Clarke and McDiarmada or was he was he closer to Goulding as some like McKee suspected he was. When agreeing to recognise the principle of consent, the foundational basis of partition, did he feel the weight of republican history bearing down on him? Or was it as easy as making the required tactical and strategic adjustments in order to set the republican ship on a different course. These important questions can only be answered by looking at his present day position in relation to the stated objectives of Irish Republicanism.

Why did republicans follow him down the road of retreat from the lofty towers of the Irish Republic into the cul-de-sac of unionist consent? An answer to this question is essential to understanding why a potent oppositional movement settled for a constitutional settlement based on British and unionist interests? What were the dynamics at work within the PRM? Who were the real movers and shakers and, how far did the democratic centralist party model facilitate these outcomes? And more importantly, to what extent were the rank and file in thrall of the cult of the personality?

I think Mick is far too gracious in his description of the party cadre. Whether they are less corrupt than the general membership of other political parties is debateable. How does he measure this in real terms? I personally know many of them and I can assure him they are not the "impressive working class political activists" he paints. Indeed, one only has to look at the calibre of the Sinn Fein MLAs to see a less than impressive upper crust. Of course, there are the young political sharks north and south like Kearney, Docherty and McDonald, but they are the exception not the rule.

What gives Sinn Fein the edge is the party machine that is without equal on the island. The cadre are totally committed to the needs of the party and are prepared to go the extra mile in order to see it progress. Every vote counts, every seat increases power, power is the answer to everything. This is the Adams way. The pursuit of power is the means and the end. The rank and file are well attuned to this message.

I will return to some other point later. My daughter is torturing me to go out.

Fionnuala I understand where your anger is coming...

2013-05-26T14:05:32.077+01:00

Fionnuala

I understand where your anger is coming from, but I must defend myself. Are you truly saying Adams is not tenacious and committed 'to his cause'?(the words I wrote) I did not say 'he' was incorruptible, what I said was 'In both jurisdictions Sinn Féin has a cadre of able politicians, whose 'incorruptibility and commitment cannot be equaled within the UK or Ireland.' and I stand by that, and you yourself know SF politicians who are able and incorruptible.

When I said Adams has managed to keep his movement intact,and bar the odd periodic resignations which all political parties experience it has remained so, I am just stating a fact.

As to Adams walking on water I am not religious so you might know more about that type of thing than me. What I did say was 'in the north SF is firmly embedded as the lead nationalist party.' Nationalist party!

Hurling abuse, whether at SF or a second rate scribe like myself, may make one feel better but it rarely changes things for the better. That is why people in the north still vote for SF in large numbers despite Adams receiving a torrent of abuse, they see them as the best of the bunch, nothing more, nothing less. (Sadly the best of the bunch is often not good enough.)

A baggage handler at Minneapolis airport once told me he liked Bill Clinton because the country was no worse off when he left office than when he came in. Disappointing for sure, but given today's politicians I thought it was a far from stupid thing to say.

You say things are worse now in Belfast than when Adams was first elected as an MP, as far as violence is concerned that is simply not true, as to the social problems, I would guess they are much the same. Besides, you understand better than I real societal change in the north is never going to happen under the current constitutional arrangement.

Still in the piece I wrote that Adams is a controversial man, your comment proves that, the problem with writing about Adams is those who dislike him believe all that is bad lays at his feet, and those who like him believe all that is good.

Thus if you try to write a balanced piece which includes both good and bad, which I believe I did, you are liable to upset everyone. It's a bit like sitting on the fence when an argument is raging, if your not careful you are likely to get a splinter up your arse.

Comradely regards

Mick Gerry couldn't have written this better h...

2013-05-26T00:41:14.435+01:00

Mick
Gerry couldn't have written this better himself. Tenacious, committed, incorruptible the man who managed to keep the movemeant intact. Pity we had to have the down side when the shit general suddenly finds himself playing God with people's lives. Do you think he walked on water whilst altruistically overseeing the betterment of Republican kind and the greater good?
I'm surprised that you or anyone could seriously arrive at this conclusion Mick. Setting aside the betrayal and ravishing of Republicanism, the disarming of the IRA and his lies about the hunger strikes. Adams left his constituency in West Belfast blighted with social and economic deprevation and much, much worse off than when he was elected, not to be scoffed at either!
Memoirs from ' A Shit general who became a half decent politican' sounds fine, if only the words lying, cheat and reprehensible didn't keep coming to mind.

“Many thousands support Sinn Fein day and daily-so...

2013-05-25T21:58:37.649+01:00

“Many thousands support Sinn Fein day and daily-so I know everyone has not got the hate for them like you do-”
This is exactly my point MH when someone questions anything to do with Sinn Fein
The above answer is the party line for everyone in Sinn Fein.
Please find any post were I have said I hate Sinn Fein or any person on TPQ,
If asking a question or pointing out the obvious is hating someone in your little world then so be it.
Your comparison between the two questions about murder and money really sends out a message that in the Sinn Fein money is more important than life itself
You are correct Gerry did answer the question about the disappearance of Jean Mc Conville and is still the leader of Sinn Fein but only ye in Sinn Fein believe his lies are the truth

Boyne Rover- I thought from Mick Hall's point...

2013-05-25T20:48:01.397+01:00

Boyne Rover-

I thought from Mick Hall's point of view he wrote a good article but
I cant see any reason why Gerry should resign from the leadership-you want him to stay on also-but for your own reasons which you have stated-

"Surely it's time to come away from the Paranoia of everyone hates us "

Many thousands support Sinn Fein day and daily-so I know everyone has not got the hate for them like you do-

"did you order the killing of Jean Mc Conville"

Gerry has given his answer and is still leader-

Those other party leaders who were asked-did you order the killing of the Irish economy-well they had no answer and were shown the door-

MH You seem to think it’s the people who are agai...

2013-05-25T18:18:34.847+01:00

MH
You seem to think it’s the people who are against Sinn Fein that ask about when Adams should retire. The pure stupidity of the Sinn Fein member and supporter when asked a simple question is to answer the following “these people are against Sinn Fein and the peace process and are dissidents “
Surely its time to come away from the paranoia of everyone hates us
The post only asks the question should someone so long the Leader of a political party now consider steeping aside and letting young blood take the reins.
I would be fairly convinced that none of the other political parties on the island really care about Sinn Fein but from a strategy point of view they would want him to stay put, he is the best opposition any party could hope for, he has so many skeletons in the cupboard (excuse the pun) that are in the general arena that his opponents can rhyme them of with consummate ease
Whatever the rights and wrongs of other party leaders I can’t recall any of them being asked “did you order the killing of Jean Mc Conville”

Even Fergie has retired, who will be Sinn fein'...

2013-05-25T12:43:45.724+01:00

Even Fergie has retired, who will be Sinn fein's Moyesy ?

Interesting article. I have been wondering for a w...

2013-05-25T11:25:36.194+01:00

Interesting article. I have been wondering for a while why Adams didn't just retire. He is definitely a liability in the South by now.

Never realised that he may face prosecution, just presumed a deal had been done at the time of Good Friday.

Rory

michaelhenry: "he is doing a great job in th...

2013-05-25T01:21:12.372+01:00

michaelhenry:

"he is doing a great job in the 32-"

Have I been asleep and missed it all , are we really a 32 county socialist republic?.

Your so called leader is not fit to even mention any of the ten brave hunger strikers , he used them as pawns in a massive chess game.

"You hear it the odd time from those that oppose Sinn Fein so much"

I can assure you , I am not against Sinn Fein , I'm against the leaders who sold out to get into Politics in the wee 6c under British Rule.

Shame , Shame , Shame.

You hear it the odd time from those that oppose Si...

2013-05-24T23:10:30.110+01:00

You hear it the odd time from those that oppose Sinn Fein so much
that it is time for Gerry Adams to leave his leadership position-its a good sign that he is doing a great job in the 32-

Adams has already said that he still wants to be the leader of Sinn Fein in 2016-apart from the other God above- I cant see anything else stopping this from happening-