Comments on The Pensive Quill: No Gravitas

Frankie, it would lead to a row with people argui...

2013-04-04T21:38:58.345+01:00

Frankie,

it would lead to a row with people arguing that the perps, whoever they are, should not be on it. As I keep saying it is about recrimination not reconciliation.

Wouldn't it at least be a start if a memorial ...

2013-04-04T21:29:23.958+01:00

Wouldn't it at least be a start if a memorial wall (similar to the Vietnam Vetran memorial) was built and it listed all the people who died during the conflict..Every where in in North there are memorial gardens, plaques etc listing friends, comrades and loved ones who lost their lives.

I got to thinking about because of the spatt in Belfast's city council last night about how the two corporals should be remembered.

People will argue about who was right, wrong well into the next century...Not everyone will get justice and not everyone will tell the truth. But a Vietnam Vet type memorial listing everyone who died. They where all victims.

Mick, ‘But whilst there may be much to crucify hi...

2011-06-30T13:30:57.556+01:00

Mick,

‘But whilst there may be much to crucify him for I do not believe this is one.’

Even though he undermines every call for an inquiry into the British?

‘the situation on the ground in the north is far better for nationalists than it was before 1969.’

But was the armed struggle worth it or necessary to get us there? Particularly as this was clearly outlined as a defeat during the armed struggle.

‘Today, no Unionist bigot who has political ambitions would publicly talk the talk of their forebears.’

A change in language is hardly worth the effort that went in.

‘Whether those days return will depend on a number of things which I do not have the space to go into here.’

I don’t think they will return.

‘But more importantly; you and comrades like you are still alive and out of jail and given the calibre of so many working class volunteers I for one rejoice.’

Which is not really the point.

‘One of the saddest things about many republicans who have joined groups like Real, Óglaigh na hÉireann, etc, is the one more heave this time with a clean leadership mentality prevails. It is as if all that is bad lays at Adams feet and all good is down to some anonymous being, the truth is a tad more complicated than that as I am certain you understand.’

Strikes me that what you have outlined is a standard response from the Left to its perpetual failures. I am sure you have had your fill of it listening to the Torts. It is always some trade union leader or Labour bureaucrat who has sold out. It has never struck me as persuasive. So I agree with you. Could Adams have avoided the defeat of the IRA? I don’t see how.

‘The writing was on the table for the PIRA in the late 80s early 90s when volunteers who had seen the inside of a jail, served their time and returned to active service were being killed or rearrested and imprisoned a second time around. It is hard not to conclude they were being sent out because not enough youngsters were coming through.’

There were enough coming through. I saw no shortage of them. That so many from the jails reported back was largely to do with the culture in the jail, how men came to define themselves through the IRA, the weight of the hunger strikers. It wasn’t because they were needed for their expertise in the IRA. Most would have been miles behind the game compared to the young lads coming through who quickly learned the tricks of survival when it came to being cute about the Brits on the ground and forensically aware.

People have every right to believe that the IRA lost the war and that this is not a republican outcome without being hounded for it.

'Without the armed struggle does any honest pe...

2011-06-30T13:06:19.848+01:00

'Without the armed struggle does any honest person really believe we would be were we are today? I for one do not.’

AM

Your point about no comment was exactly my point when I wrote once Adams went down the road of outright denial he has no road back. But whilst there may be much to crucify him for I do not believe this is one.

As to the above quote I am happy to stand over it, whilst we are not where you and I would prefer to be the situation on the ground in the north is far better for nationalists than it was before 1969.

Today, no Unionist bigot who has political ambitions would publicly talk the talk of their forebears. Whether those days return will depend on a number of things which I do not have the space to go into here.

But more importantly; you and comrades like you are still alive and out of jail and given the calibre of so many working class volunteers I for one rejoice.

One of the saddest things about many republicans who have joined groups like Real, Óglaigh na hÉireann, etc, is the one more heave this time with a clean leadership mentality prevails. It is as if all that is bad lays at Adams feet and all good is down to some anonymous being, the truth is a tad more complicated than that as I am certain you understand.

The writing was on the table for the PIRA in the late 80s early 90s when volunteers who had seen the inside of a jail, served their time and returned to active service were being killed or rearrested and imprisoned a second time around. It is hard not to conclude they were being sent out because not enough youngsters were coming through. In the end a dads army rarely fights a successful war.

Basically despite the Provos resources and stamina the war was going no where. Yes it could have been managed at a low level of intensity, perhaps indefinitely, but at what cost to volunteers, comrades like you would have ended your days in jail, or worse and the communities from which came came, did they not deserve a period of peace.

Having said all this much of the discord could have been avoided if the Adams leadership had kept themselves at arms length from the New Labour government. When John Major said he had received 'that' message from the Provos we all scoffed bollocks, little did we understand the level of collusion which would later take place.

If the PRM truly believe they have nothing to be ashamed of, they should publish online the minutes of all talks between themselves and representatives of the British government.

Not least to help arm future generations of republican and revolutionaries around the world to understand the possible pitfalls and mistakes when negotiating with perfidious albion.

Marty, ‘I see the bearded one has been caught out...

2011-06-30T10:14:19.306+01:00

Marty,

‘I see the bearded one has been caught out again! Lying.’

Stating the obvious!

Mick,

‘Without the armed struggle does any honest person really believe we would be were we are today? I for one do not.’

Where exactly are we? In terms of republicanism, the country is no closer to being united. I think in 1966 on the 50th anniversary of the Easter Rising most Irish people probably thought that the NI state would collapse before the apartheid one; that unity would be achieved in 50 years time. It is not remotely close to it. Then there is the serious question of why an armed struggle was necessary to get so little. I know when I was in the Republican Movement and all throughout my jail time that the type of thing in place today was considered a serious defeat. None of these things were ever considered as worthy republican objectives.

‘once Adams went down the road of outright denial he has no road back.’

He could simply say ‘no comment’ instead of inviting the ridicule he does. Much of the interest in him is spurred by the denials. ‘No comment’ would not produce anything like the same response.

Nuala,

‘Adams, helped create and nurture this apology culture.’

It is a pretence. I don’t know if there is anybody other than the terminally hollow who believe the IRA did not carry out the Whitecross operation or kill Joanne Mathers or Joe O’Connor. The apologies are not genuine but are used for political purposes.

There is also the issue of what we are supposed to do when we conclude that we were wrong. The IRA long apologised for some operations like La Mon.

Setting Adams aside on the issue of war criminality, it is hard to avoid the conclusion that enforced disappearances is a war crime or a crime against humanity. It seems to be everywhere else.

Mick, no, it is not a crime at all. They need to ...

2011-06-26T20:42:48.189+01:00

Mick,

no, it is not a crime at all. They need to work and if we look at the Mary McArdle case we can see just how difficult it can be for ex- prisoners who are going to be battered when the opportunity arises. She should not be removed from the post.

What makes it detrimental is when it is courtesy of the power of patronage; when the ex-prisoner in order to stay in position has to stay on message and put the boot into those who do not. There are so many ex-prisoners in these jobs contradicting everything they ever said and burning old comrades.

'The failure of SF is over time, they could not come up with an alternative, which meant the UK state super glued many of the PRMs leading members to this particular tit, as if their very lives depended on it.'

That's probably more damning than anything I said!

AM I agree allowing ex-prisoners to milk the commu...

2011-06-26T20:20:34.323+01:00

AM
I agree allowing ex-prisoners to milk the community sector jobs is not a sign of economic progress. But is it such a crime, human nature being what it is. If you choose the road Adams did, surely it is easy to see why some may think it is the most sensible thing to do. Especially in the short term.

The failure of SF is over time, they could not come up with an alternative, which meant the UK state super glued many of the PRMs leading members to this particular tit, as if their very lives depended on it.

Marty, There are serious question about West Belf...

2011-06-26T18:20:13.253+01:00

Marty,

There are serious question about West Belfast. Colossal political mismanagement went on there and it is useless to blame it all on the Brits, not that much can be said in their favour. Adams was not a productive MP for the constituency. I actually thought Squinter was OTT when he made the charge he did (even while admiring his courage for saying it) but since then I have come to the conclusion that Squinter had it right. It is hard to argue with the evidence. Allowing ex-prisoners to milk the community sector jobs is not economic progress. Feeney is a sharp analyst. I have never seen him as a groupie.

Alec,

‘Adam's opposed the 74/75 ceasefire on the grounds that Brits had no
intention of withdrawing and were using the period to undermine the
IRA's ability to return to war. At the time, Adams and the Dark were
promoting the idea of the long war, therefore, it is arguable that, he
more than any other, was responsible for committing the IRA to another
twenty years of armed struggle.’

A truism at this point.

thomasforde2, I was not making "silly assumpt...

2011-06-19T16:52:29.759+01:00

thomasforde2,
I was not making "silly assumptioms" I was pointing out to you, that as a member of SF, you have to toe the line. At your next cumann meeting, say that you don't agree with Marty's direction, or, Gerry's direction and see how long you last!

michaelhenry Colin Duffy is more akin to the Basqu...

2011-06-19T15:11:35.468+01:00

michaelhenry
Colin Duffy is more akin to the Basques. He is refusing to accept British authority. SF members now trying to equate themselves as the same whilst administering it is simply confirmation of how complete their self-delusion is.

Belfast git, "I know quite a lot of SF membe...

2011-06-19T14:31:16.068+01:00

Belfast git,
"I know quite a lot of SF members who, like you, wouldn't lift the phone on other Republicans" Then don't make silly assumptions about me as you did in your previous post- "You would get on the phone as quick as any tout if Gerry and Marty told you to!"

My cumann talks freely about concerns or issues, debate is healthy and to date i have not been lashed out the door

thomasforde2, my argument is not silly. I know qui...

2011-06-19T12:22:39.435+01:00

thomasforde2, my argument is not silly. I know quite a lot of SF members who, like you, wouldn't lift the phone on other Republicans, but you say you are independent thinking and so on. Bring one of your independent thoughts up at the next cumann meeting and I bet you are lashed out the door on your hole!

Larry- british and not proud are you- Are you sa...

2011-06-19T11:48:33.198+01:00

Larry-

british and not proud are you-

Are you saying that Marty- fionnuala- colin duffy- harry fitzsiimons are british-

You are talking about us all- not just me-

belfastgit, the fact that i refered to a republic...

2011-06-19T10:59:59.358+01:00

belfastgit,

the fact that i refered to a republican group as a paramilitary organisation means nothing. I would have referred to PIRA as the same but does not mean i didnt support them.

If you had bothered to read my post you would know that despite my support for Sinn Fein and their strategy i would not give info to the authorities.

You seem to think that every member of SF kneel to the leadership and that individuals within the party are incapable of forming their own opinions and acting on them how they see fit. If you believe this it is a bit pathetic Belfastgit. your argument is incorrect and silly, but maybe it's just how you would like SF's members to be viewed

Think Adams+co. have burried Irish unity with ever...

2011-06-18T12:01:30.120+01:00

Think Adams+co. have burried Irish unity with everything/one else. Poll on the internet today says 73%in the north wish to remain in the UK. Including a majority of taigs.

Brilliant strategy SF + its gimps, surrender dressed up in a 'process' and jobs for the willing.

These peace processes are in danger of being nothing more than escape routes for rats.

If i could predict that, it's beyond belief the SF/SB leadership didn't predict it.
michaelhenry..if ur out there, YOU ARE BRITISH. And staying that way!!

belfastgit, thomasforde2 you are a member of SF, s...

2011-06-18T00:50:21.804+01:00

belfastgit,
thomasforde2 you are a member of SF, says it all really when you refer to Republicans as "paramilitaries." You would get on the phone as quick as any tout if Gerry and Marty told you to!

Marty, you have hit the nail on the proverbial he...

2011-06-17T23:25:14.324+01:00

Marty,
you have hit the nail on the proverbial head, perpetual apologies seem to be the order of the day.
There is however more than a degree of irony in the fact, that while these former revolutionaries confess to the flaws in their past, their great leader still cringingly denies his.

Good film on TG4 tonight 9pm. 'The Good the Ba...

2011-06-17T19:25:32.242+01:00

Good film on TG4 tonight 9pm. 'The Good the Bad and the Ugly'. Could bring back memories for Adams. Eli Wallach and Clint Eastwood's charachters go in search of $200,000 burried in a grave marked 'unk..unk..unk-known'. bet Gerry finds it first.

When the SF membership which is obviously hypnotised en-mass by Adams+co hear those fateful words 1-2-3- AND YOU'RE BACK IN THE ROOM!they will look around to see a Northern Ireland safe within the UK. No Nazi/B specials required and no facist unionist politics necessary. Also a catholic community fully participant and happy with a Stormont government. Craig and Carson would be teary eyed.

Still, SF legacy is a peace process that other conflict zones can delve through and see how careerists and governments behave in such circumstances. They can also see how SF gave up 800 yrs history for jobs. A warning to other liberation movements worldwide in search of a peace strategy.

Lastly, the joke will be firmly on SF as the Northern Ireland catholic middle class torpedo any referendom on unity, prefering cozy secure UK status to the corrupt bubble + bust IMF gombeen Southern alternative.

Maybe the further down the never ending peace proc...

2011-06-17T17:04:34.464+01:00

Maybe the further down the never ending peace process road we go and when the union is even more securely cemented, Adams and martymi6 will encounter more journalistic grillings like that. Up until now journalists have been nothing but government agents for the 'process'.
Until that happens i for one have lost any interest in what is going on at Stormont. Can't even be arsed looking at that website of the interview, i know the shite i'll see already.

belfastgit I am a member of Sinn Fein, that does ...

2011-06-17T11:17:34.348+01:00

belfastgit

I am a member of Sinn Fein, that does not mean that i agree with all of the parties approaches or policies. If i had info on republican paramilitaries i doubt very much that i would be going to the authorities. I do not agree with an armed struggle at present but neither would i call these people traitors as i can understand the motivation to take up arms. I was lucky not to have been alive at such a tragic period, but i do believe they are deluded if they think an armed struggle will remove British forces from Ireland.

Everyone has and are entitled to their own opinions, as are "Adams and McGuinness and co" it does not mean that every member of Sinn Fein agrees with all policies. It is irrelevant where i am from, even if i'm not from planet earth my opinion is still as valid!

Nuala papa doc Paisley wanted sack cloth and ashe...

2011-06-17T09:39:32.351+01:00

Nuala papa doc Paisley wanted sack cloth and ashes but settled for a grovelling Gollum type character in the form of Mc Guinness.I could see spike and the rest visiting schools to tell the children that when blessed Gerry heaard the word from god (in this case mi5) then we all saw the light and are now here to tell you that yes we were once very very bad boys and girls but the mother of parliaments forgave us and with wads of dosh showed us a better way to climb the social ladder, which in turn makes that old saying about revolutionaries are just politicans with bombs so very true!

belfastgit thomasforde2, you say it was right for ...

2011-06-17T04:27:17.062+01:00

belfastgit
thomasforde2, you say it was right for Jean McConville to be killed because she was warned that her activities were putting vol's lives in danger. Could you then please tell me the difference between Jean McConville and Adams and McGuinness and co? They are calling on people day and night to tout on republicans. Are they not putting republicans lives in danger? I don't know where you are from, but it's definately not planet Earth!

Marty, it suits all sides to portray the conflict ...

2011-06-16T22:58:47.477+01:00

Marty,
it suits all sides to portray the conflict as 'grubby'.
Apparently, there are new community and educational initiatives being put into place to allow former paramilitaries to go into schools and recollect their stories to school children.
Whether it will appear under citizenship or grovel grovel on the curriculum remains to be seen.
Personally, I think they should just put a banner outside the City Hall or Stormont stating, 'republicans are sorry for everything, including their very existence.'

Mick there is little or nothing in your post that ...

2011-06-16T16:46:11.919+01:00

Mick there is little or nothing in your post that I could disagree with,when I refer to the grubby little war here in the North Eastern part of this island I do so in no way to slight any volunteer who fought against the might of the Brit Establishment,rather I refer to the way the brits conducted their operations here (as they have done every whwere else in the world)aided and abetted by quislings here and in the so called "free state" goverment,it was imo grubby by the deciet and dirty dealings of Adams and a few cronies who negotiated a surrender and a few privileges for themselves while at the same time sending out poorly trained volunteers to partake in military actions both here and in England .yes Mick it may be the way most wars go but the subsequent betrayal of the republican cause by the very leadership of the republican cause makes this chapter in Irelands fight for freedom not a glorious defeat but again mo cara it turns it into nothing more than a grubby little conflict, I think that first world war quote lions led by donkleys really fits the outcome of what passed here mo cara.

Danny, how come other IRA leaders went into govern...

2011-06-16T16:18:48.128+01:00

Danny,
how come other IRA leaders went into government and stood their ground?
Adams, helped create and nurture this apology culture which has now came back to haunt him.
Was he a 'war criminal' absolutely not!
Is he a pathological liar, absolutely yes!