Comments on The Pensive Quill: Maghaberry and its Violence

Mackers, so sorry about that! This will cause abso...

2010-05-26T17:36:54.722+01:00

Mackers, so sorry about that!
This will cause absolute hysteria now, with Marty thinking I have been shown the door, or told to blog off!

Albert asked, "Is it the goal posts that is causing Marie all that anxiety?"

Mackers, to answer your question yes the bins are reinstated and much appreciated.

2010-05-26T17:06:58.352+01:00

This comment has been removed by the author.

Nuala, is the bin back yet? I don’t know how these...

2010-05-24T08:57:29.856+01:00

Nuala, is the bin back yet? I don’t know how these things operate! The best way not to get caught with the spelling is to write it out in Word first.

Fionnchú, I think the opposition to prison violen...

2010-05-15T11:28:41.009+01:00

Fionnchú,

I think the opposition to prison violence has fallen to republicans. They have always been to the fore in defending republican prisoners against abuse. Quite often in the past it has been tactical rather than rights driven.

It seems to me essential that a rights driven campaign be given full wind. The abuse of rights by prison management is something that extends beyond the political prisoner community. Nor is it contained within the North. The prison system in the South is notorious for its abuse of rights.

The difficulty facing a rights driven campaign is that it is probably not emotive enough to raise widespread public support. That is because there is widespread animosity towards some of those who would benefit from it such as rapists. As a Marxist once said to me the problem with human rights is that everybody has to have them!

I think support for prisoners’ rights is unconditional. It cannot be held in check by fears that it might fuel the various IRAs out there. We heard all these arguments raised before against speaking out against RUC torture. The liberal classes went into some serious hand wringing over the support it might give republicanism if they were to speak out against the police.

Ewok, I would have imagined the comment was quit...

2010-05-15T09:29:59.971+01:00

Ewok,

I would have imagined the comment was quite clear. Harry Fitz cannot be accused of being part of a ‘dissident’ agenda aimed at destabilising the peace process. He is doing time for serving the peace process.

His involvement in the Tohill kidnap is a separate issue. There is no question of that being anything but wrong. And he has to make his own case on that. Many of us have made it clear where we stand on attacks like that. Few will disagree with you that it was anti-republican.

That he is being beaten by screws is the issue here. He is not being defended for his involvement in the Provisional attack on Tohill but is being defended, rightly and robustly, against being attacked by screws. If Storey or Kelly or Wilson were in Maghaberry and were being beaten by screws do you think we would be sitting silent and saying ‘they got their comeuppance’? Not a chance.

Mackers, I thought the bin was there to help if yo...

2010-05-14T17:16:50.212+01:00

Mackers, I thought the bin was there to help if you made a typing or spelling error which I do in nearly every post.

Marty started the paranoia over the bin. Must be that continual fear he has of getting dumped

In my case Mackers please reinstate the bin and then I can have a second go at a mistake free post.

Albert does not believe he (Marty)is on holiday either, he says he has drunk the money for the internet bill again.

Nuala, the bin just means you are able to delete...

2010-05-14T12:11:23.280+01:00

Nuala,

the bin just means you are able to delete your own comment if you choose

Sam, I confess that some of my most joyous days ...

2010-05-14T08:27:16.744+01:00

Sam,

I confess that some of my most joyous days in jail were when they got hit.
They were thoroughly evil. While I would never advocate it again I remember only too well the animosity that those people engendered in us. I remember going to a visit one day during the Blanket protest and the screw with me was decent. We got into a conversation and we talked about screws getting killed. He was amazed when I told him I agreed with it. It never turned him hostile. He just could not countenance that I could think his colleagues deserved it. I think the most evil people I have ever met were screws. Having said that some of the most decent people I ever met were also screws. I knew screws during the Blanket protest who would never have laid a hand on a prisoner. Myself and The Dark and the company we were in bought a group of them a round of drink one time we bumped into them in a pub in South Belfast. They offered first.

Mackers, they have criminalized an entire struggle...

2010-05-13T23:51:40.254+01:00

Mackers, they have criminalized an entire struggle.
Liam Hannaway is still on hungerstrike, I heard from his brother today that the conditions in the prison are pretty dire.

Apparently the new minister for policing and justice (another load of shit) said the prisoners are "playing up for attention"

To be honest I thought it was only snakes that shed their whole skin.
Not so, because they the (Mainstream Republicans) would sell their souls, to hold on to this little bit of nothing.

I'm sure the republicans from the 40s would be horrified by this.
My ma used to call them (Sinn Fein) the sell-out party, and considering she had her first prison visit at a few days old.
The first of over sixty years of prison visits I think she would know.

Nuala, A very moving post around the theme of th...

2010-05-13T13:02:34.114+01:00

Nuala,

A very moving post around the theme of the book you were reading that your da had left. The ‘micro group’ of the 40s produced people who were key to the Provisional IRA including its one time chief of staff, Joe Cahill. Now, they are to be criminalised by the SF logic of today. SF disagreeing with the armed strugglers of today is fine. It is the clamour to join with the DUP and the British state to confer criminality on them that leave the party exposed. But it can do little else, so trapped is it by the logic of the peace process.

Larry, didn't even know you posted it!! I see ...

2010-05-13T10:35:58.178+01:00

Larry, didn't even know you posted it!! I see it so often. Lots of people use it and things like PMSL. I prefer the gold oul !!!!

internet nerds indeed! 'disguised' at ya m...

2010-05-12T23:34:17.660+01:00

internet nerds indeed! 'disguised' at ya mackers..Fionnuala, my degree is actually a BA bachelor of arts in Irish History and Politics..the MA [Masters] is awarded after a 4th year...consider it a freudian slip from a cocky wee...NERD lol quite chuffed 2 be put in the nerd herd...im on the up.

Brendan, After years of ‘legitimately targeting’...

2010-05-12T21:45:05.726+01:00

Brendan,

After years of ‘legitimately targeting’ people in ever widening circles only to end up where we are – those who decided the criteria for targeting people meeting all the criteria themselves - the only conclusion I can draw is that anything similar adds to the spiral downwards. I don’t believe there are any legitimate targets.

Sorry, Mackers I know I'm being a melter. It i...

2010-05-12T20:20:17.445+01:00

Sorry, Mackers I know I'm being a melter. It is all down to Marty he started asking questions about bins and scaremongering about comments being deleted.
Disregard the former question about the bin!
Albert said it's a hint but I think it is optional good practice.

Thanks for that Mackers, I know I am going to soun...

2010-05-12T20:12:19.679+01:00

Thanks for that Mackers, I know I am going to sound as paranoid as Marty, but I have the bin up and I'm just wondering why!
Sorry, that was not very clear the bin, beside my comment?
Albert said it means rubbish!!!!

Nuala, I will answer the easy one! It means laug...

2010-05-12T19:50:11.588+01:00

Nuala,

I will answer the easy one! It means laugh out loud. You are lucky not having had your mind colonised by the internet nerds and their geeky language!!!!!!!!!!!

I think it beggars belief that people find it acce...

2010-05-12T19:22:16.458+01:00

I think it beggars belief that people find it acceptable for the screws to brutalise Harry Fitz.

Whether people agree or disagree with what he was charged and subsequently sentenced for is completely irrelevant, it is the fact that a republican prisoner is being brutalized that should be uppermost in peoples' minds.

The prisoners need support, not smug remarks and condemnation.
Surely we get enough of that from our so called republican party in government!

Two other question on a different subject, what is Larry's MA in ?

What does lol mean?

Larry, your point was very clear that you do not...

2010-05-12T08:43:55.231+01:00

Larry,

your point was very clear that you do not condone prisoners being beaten and I did not mean to misrepresent it. I merely used your comment as a springboard to touch on the wider issues that have been raised elsewhere in relation to the discussion. I thought your comment raised the points that need to be considered

it seems that harry fitz was a bit of a screw hims...

2010-05-11T20:43:21.233+01:00

it seems that harry fitz was a bit of a screw himself,dishing out beatings,as a GFA enforcer,seems ironic.
not sure i understand am,when you say,'harry fitz is not a dissident trying to drag us back to the bad old days',what exactly is a 'dissident' in the republican context,i mean,wasnt he involved in the suppresion of republicans by using typical counter-insurgency methods trying to enforce the GFA treaty?
stop me if im wrong but that's not revolutionary or republican its counter revolutionary,and counter republican.

AM, on a recent thread (46 comments to date so I m...

2010-05-11T20:41:03.758+01:00

AM, on a recent thread (46 comments to date so I moved it over here from 'More Guns than Votes') you admitted: 'I can see no republican future. Republican activists should consider validating their republicanism through different projects. There are lots of improvements to be made in the lives of people, most of which a Brit free Ireland or a Brit run Ireland has little relevance to.'

Given the discussion among Seán Mór, Larry and others so far, I wonder how a prisoner's rights campaign would (or would not) fare? I compare the fear of rousing up support for dissidents determined to bring back the bombs, with the immorality of brutality, of course, by bullies.

I perceive a tension between not wishing to condone the militancy while not wanting to permit the abuse of those imprisoned for violence. The added context of Harry Fitz doing time for Provo 'peace process' activity's a complicating factor to be sure. And as Fionnuala notes, I wonder if there are advocates now arguing for reform?

What has always galled me over the years is the fa...

2010-05-11T19:26:04.311+01:00

What has always galled me over the years is the fact that not one screw was ever charged with brutality or torture against POW's. Most escaped justice. I say most, because only a handful paid the ultimate price for their sadistic behavior towards naked and defenseless prisoners. I for one was always glad to hear when a screw had been shot, as I stated quite clearly in my memoir, On The Brinks. Last week I was doing a reading of one of my crime novels down in Dublin, when I was confronted by a very angry man complaining that my books glorified killing screws. He said I should be ashamed of myself, to which I replied: You were probably one of the many people who shamefully kept quiet when fellow Irishmen were being tortured by these vile creature. He stormed off in a threatening huff. I found out later he had been a screw at 'The Joy'.

Mackers I did state that prisoners should never be...

2010-05-11T17:26:27.977+01:00

Mackers I did state that prisoners should never be brutalised..I think..? My point was really just that the perception is out there that prisoners for political motives will use gaol protest to generate sympathy. People aren't unaware of this. That's all I was aluding to. That fact in turn and recent history may be part of the reason for present apathy.

Larry, the argument you put forward about raising...

2010-05-10T21:35:06.314+01:00

Larry,

the argument you put forward about raising support is fine but bear in mind Harry Fitz is not a dissident trying to drag people back to the bad old days. He is not serving time for anti-peace process activity but for peace process activity. He is serving time for a Provisional IRA activity. He is being beaten because he is asserting the right of prisoners to better conditions. The bottom line here is that screws cannot be permitted to beat prisoners. Prisoners are being beaten. Offer context, mitigation, qualification, walk a mile in the other man's shoes argument - we are pulled back to the inviolable position which is screws cannot be allowed to beat prisoners.

About an hour before I read Martin OG's post. ...

2010-05-10T21:03:56.472+01:00

About an hour before I read Martin OG's post. I had been flicking through a small book which belonged to my da. It is a small book which contains pieces of writing by some of the men in the Crumlin Gaol during the 40's.
Most of those who wrote in the book had been sentenced for treason. (Perceived as traitors)
The majority of these prisoners received 7 year sentences for this charge.
Some got 7 years plus the Cat o Nine Tails. ( A harsh whipping instrument)
I remember my da telling me about how brutal the regime was in the Crumlin for republicans. It was also harsh in England, my uncle was allowed to die in Parkhurst.
The brutality of these regimes relied on the fact, that most republicans were ostracised by the public, just as they are now.
People thought the 40's campaign was pointless. Two decades before, people had been spitting on the captured men and women of 1916.
It has always amazed me the way they fought to carry the coffin of Tom Williams (similar to the way they fought over the "Darks") when he was re-interned.
Yet, my granny and my mother were amongst the few people who made the sad journey to the Crumlin gaol that morning, determined to say the rosary even thought they were faced with a barrage of orange abuse.
It is almost unreal to think that sixty years after this book was composed, prisoners are still being brutalised, and with the exception of their families and some close republican friends no-one really cares.

Fionnchú a very thoughtful comment. I think the ...

2010-05-10T21:00:49.228+01:00

Fionnchú

a very thoughtful comment. I think the issue here is more political than a question of perks. In the case of SF I suppose it could be argued that they have been silenced by the perks. I think it is much more fundamental than that.