Comments on The Pensive Quill: It Ain’t Necessarily So

David Russell form Derry was a protestant Vol died...

2011-10-19T16:47:59.968+01:00

David Russell form Derry was a protestant Vol died 1974

tiarna, if a person takes a stand against somethin...

2011-10-19T15:21:38.532+01:00

tiarna,
if a person takes a stand against something they perceive to be unjust, they should be applauded.
I doubt I LmcK would have footed that funeral had his bosses frowned on it.
I have not heard him utter a sentence about the unjustice in Maghaberry or Gerry Mc Geough or Marian, no the done thing! and people like him will never deviate from the done thing!

Tierna Harry Murray, from loyalist area did time ...

2011-10-18T19:31:09.900+01:00

Tierna

Harry Murray, from loyalist area did time in the blocks...big 'L'

Jamdonuts, I will if you tell me what is wrong wi...

2011-10-18T18:26:42.172+01:00

Jamdonuts,

I will if you tell me what is wrong with it. I checked the link but whatever it is has escaped me!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/It_Ain%27t_Necessaril...

2011-10-18T18:14:56.967+01:00

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/It_Ain%27t_Necessarily_So

you might want to correct your introduction

Ruairi Joseph, we will just have to allow others ...

2011-10-18T16:09:39.471+01:00

Ruairi Joseph,

we will just have to allow others to make up their own minds on the matter.

AM 'The Brits violated it' Ok then, let’...

2011-10-18T15:59:56.808+01:00

AM

'The Brits violated it'

Ok then, let’s just hope they wouldn't again. To me it is predictable, that some republicans will continue to use alternative methods when all mandates have been respected but theirs. Difficult to see how we can get republicans in the north of Ireland, to accept what was never acceptable in any of the 26 counties. Hypocritical in the extreme!

'But that is a discussion that has been flogged to death on this site prior to your own contributions'

Better just to be flogging Sinn Fein to death then I suppose.

ZZZZZZzzzzz What’s that, McGuinness is a Bastard… ZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzz.

Ruairi Joseph, ‘Wasn't a 32county republic en...

2011-10-18T08:50:35.656+01:00

Ruairi Joseph,

‘Wasn't a 32county republic endorsed on this island, democratically underpinned as you put it?’

It was.

‘What happened with that?’

The Brits violated it.

In the years that followed the bulk of Irish people voted for something different – they voted to endorse a situation that existed at the time they voted. Nobody has made a persuasive argument that they were under threat. In fact as time has gone on the threat they perceive themselves to be under is that of republican armed force seeking to coerce them against their democratically expressed wishes.

What they did was to determine that the people in the North would only come into a unitary state once they in the North decided that they wanted to. When this was flagged up within SF years before the GFA it was of course denied that any such thing would be acceptable. The purpose of flagging it up was to draw attention to the major challenges it posed to republicanism. Now republicanism has major challenges, greater than at any time over the past four decades. The rest is history.

That republicans need another mandate ‘I suspect holds little water with many, and obviously leads some to consider violence as an option.’ It seems to hold a lot of water with the vast bulk of people in the country.

That some might risk their all to defend violently subverting the views of the bulk of the country does not make their use of armed force right. It puts them in a position whereby they state to the people of Ireland ‘you have no rights against our use of force. We not you will will determine your future.’

Setting aside all of that plus whatever moral calculations people might wish to introduce, it seems that very few republicans now feel there is a strategic merit in political violence. Few strategic arguments for its use are even made. Those who argue in favour of it seem to do so on ideological grounds. It does not mean that republicans are happy with what exists.

But that is a discussion that has been flogged to death on this site prior to your own contributions.

AM 'Democratically would be defined at its m...

2011-10-18T04:20:20.963+01:00

AM

'Democratically would be defined at its most simple as a majority of people on the island of Ireland have endorsed partition and gave it a democratic basis. We may not like it and have every reason to dissent from it but it does not make it less real for that'

Indeed we may not like it. Wasn't a 32county republic endorsed on this island, democratically underpinned as you put it? What happened with that? Demanding that republicans go fetch another mandate, which in theory could be again ignored, I suspect holds little water with many, and obviously leads some to consider violence as an option. This is often dismissed nowadays as rhetoric or history, but for some at least, it seems a principle that they are prepared to risk their all to defend.

Belfastgit ‘I also say that there is a need for a...

2011-10-17T19:08:57.423+01:00

Belfastgit

‘I also say that there is a need for a police service as opposed to a "force".’

A necessary characteristic of its role is that it is performs both functions.

I would not want my own kids to join it nor would I approve of it. I most certainly would not want them to be regarded as legitimate targets if they did join it.

I’ll pick up the good old IRA book some time. It will be handy to have in the library. Thanks all the same.

Ruairi Joseph

Democratically would be defined at its most simple as a majority of people on the island of Ireland have endorsed partition and gave it a democratic basis. We may not like it and have every reason to dissent from it but it does not make it less real for that.

Tiarna

there were a couple of Protestants who served time for the republican cause.

Marty, you raised a very important point, would &...

2011-10-16T12:45:14.094+01:00

Marty,
you raised a very important point, would 'Laurny' Mc Keown have showed up at that funeral if it had not been given the political ok? I would agree with you absolutely not!
I don't know him, but I would say his behaviour towards Dixie, speaks volumes.

I have never heard any utterances from him in relation to the brutality or injustices served against republicans.
His discomfort that day was probably more the result of an over active conscience than any moral or ethical dilemma.

Tiarna, in this case I don't accept that. Tha...

2011-10-15T22:26:51.007+01:00

Tiarna,

in this case I don't accept that. That article was written with the clear intention of not reporting the story. It was a story so easy to get to. That article chose not to but to muddy the waters. And I have other reasons for not buying into this working for human rights angle.

AM I have heard former clients of Pat Finucane...

2011-10-15T22:02:34.839+01:00

AM

I have heard former clients of Pat Finucane's grumble about the quality of his services that have merited him the attribute of human rights lawyer. Obviously she has writen such an article which perhaps is more in line with what you wrote earlier, that, "in the day to day world we live in negotiation is a omnipresent process" the same might be said for a journalist writing on a sensitive issue. I have often read bloggs here about Gerry McG as he campaigns about his own unfair treatment, which is fair enough, but there is never an oppurtunity missed to pump his admiration and appreciation that Sean Brady and the Catholic Church give him the time of day --he legitimises the Catholic Churches concern at the expense of those who have been victims of the systemic abuses perpetrated by that brand of human righst violators.

T.

Tiarna, There is a lot of heartfelt sympathy expr...

2011-10-15T20:19:03.808+01:00

Tiarna,

There is a lot of heartfelt sympathy expressed in the way you outline it. However, I don't think any human rights activist working tirelessly would have written the following piece.

http://www.mail-archive.com/kominform@lists.eunet.fi/msg04082.html

Marty,

thanks. There are always questions of inconsistency that arise. I am not persuaded that they are to be explained away as hypocrisy.

PS: was there not a protestant from Tigerbay in Be...

2011-10-15T14:22:36.288+01:00

PS: was there not a protestant from Tigerbay in Belfast who not only a member of the IRA but did not meekly serve his time in the H-Blocks?

AM LMcK attended in his personal capicity because...

2011-10-15T14:18:21.110+01:00

AM

LMcK attended in his personal capicity because he thought it the right thing to do and not on behalf of SF. Personal acts from 'the other side' have been present throughout the conflict years one need only reflect on Troops Out and individual former soldiers gestures of goodwill, not least, that of Bob Harker who was one of two squadies shot while on patrol in Ballymurphy his colleague was killed and he survived. On being honourably discharged from the army he gave his service medal to Julie Livingston's family in protest against the use of plastic bullets. Apparently he and The Dark often exchanged running banter in who actually shot him. Or how Rita Restorick conducted herself admirably on the loss of her son who was shot dead while on duty at an army checkpoint on the border. Or, former BBC Journalist and English woman Anne Cadwallader who left her position to live and works tirelessly to this day on human rights issues relating to the Conflict. The actions of Rev David Latimer could also be viewed in the light of extending a hand of friendship.
T.

Gerry was never in the ra,Marty was hardly in it,M...

2011-10-15T07:53:15.507+01:00

Gerry was never in the ra,Marty was hardly in it,Mc Keown was angry at the killing of the psni officer by republicans,yet strangely silent about O,Connor. and Mc Cartney murders by his comrades,he is a f##kin hypocrite and a liar like his bosses,plain and simple as that.would Mc Keown have been at Kerr,s funeral if the other two clowns hadnt been there I think not.Marty will greet the queen as president but not as deputy dawg,did you ever hear such nonsense,never mind the fact that republicans are opposed to any form of royalty,we have the sight of this eejit trying to outdo the previous eejit of that office,I think this is some form of experiment,conducted by the bosses in Whitehall,the same ones who told Cameron to tell the Finucane family to fuck off,just to see how much shit they can actually shove down the throats of those members of psf. great post as usual Anthony a cara.

Nuala, You are absolutely right. Master was no mo...

2011-10-15T06:23:43.774+01:00

Nuala,

You are absolutely right. Master was no more genuine at Ronan Kerr’s funeral than he was at the Dark’s.

AM 'The problem with Unionist consent is that...

2011-10-15T05:32:05.811+01:00

AM

'The problem with Unionist consent is that is democratically underpinned by a majority of people in the country'

Define 'democratically'

Mackers, you are right, people should be able to ...

2011-10-14T23:34:59.159+01:00

Mackers,
you are right, people should be able to give empathy to a family and show abhorence if that is how they really feel.
However, there was something quite superficial and sickeningly hypocritical about Adams, McGuinness and their entourage at the Kerr funeral.
Poachers turned gamekeepers always look decidely out of step and less than sincere.

i have had conversations with SF and ex SF people ...

2011-10-14T21:22:25.033+01:00

i have had conversations with SF and ex SF people recently. The SF people are alergic to any sensible questioning. The ex SF people say its true that Adams was never in the 'RA coz they didn't accept cunts.

Liverpool in for it tomorro mackers...
YNWA.. you'll never work again lol

AM, I'll try to get you a copy of "The Go...

2011-10-14T21:02:23.815+01:00

AM,
I'll try to get you a copy of "The Good Old IRA" and post it online for you. It tells tales of horses being shot dead for pulling british coal, and, of a woman in her 50's who told the guys taking over her house that: "I'm not afraid of your pop guns", and she was immediately shot dead. There's more in it, but that's just a flavour. (I think she was in her50's but I could be wrong, maybe older)

AM, No, mo chara, "the good old IRA" are...

2011-10-14T20:50:21.006+01:00

AM,
No, mo chara, "the good old IRA" are shouting NO, at the "new IRA".

Belfastgit How wrong we were indeed. And how wro...

2011-10-14T18:56:47.695+01:00

Belfastgit

How wrong we were indeed. And how wrong some are still determined to be.
I never read the "the good old IRA" but recall hearing of it. Now the good old IRA shouts ‘traitors’ at the bad old IRA.

Ruairi Joseph,

It seems you are opposed to an armed British police force rather than a British police force, or at least your objection is much stronger and more hostile if it is armed.

The problem with Unionist consent is that is democratically underpinned by a majority of people in the country. While we have every right to dissent from that underpinning, if we decide to violently attempt to subvert it then we are doing what we accuse the British of doing – undermining the democratic will of the Irish people. It is a circle that armed republicanism seems unable to square.

I also say that there is a need for a police servi...

2011-10-14T18:45:23.068+01:00

I also say that there is a need for a police service as opposed to a "force" to serve the needs of all communities, irrespective of religion, colour or race. So far I haven't seen it. Just look at what happened in Ardoyne and what happened in east belfast.