Comments on The Pensive Quill: Ulster Loyalism, Flag Protests & the failure of ze...

Ulster Loyalism, Flag Protests & the failure ...

2013-04-20T10:33:15.805+01:00

Ulster Loyalism, Flag Protests & the failure

Feel te love,

I feel betrayed by MMCG because we were part of the same army. Pearse Doherty and the likes don’t generate those same negative emotions of anger in me.

I think many will identify with that sentiment

Anthony; I honestly despair of convincing loyalist...

2013-02-24T23:14:04.504Z

Anthony; I honestly despair of convincing loyalists of the merits of working class unity - and I'm bored trying to convince myself they can be convinced.

Last year (or maybe two years ago) the International Brigade committee erected a plaque on the house that was the birthplace of Liam Tumlinson. All was well. Brigadista Tumlinson was the pride of east Belfast, an heroic anti-fascist Protestant who went hell for leather in Spain, standing up for the rights of workers everywhere. However it was soon discovered that Tumlinson was also an ira volunteer, trying to rid his own country of the fascists like thse he he fought in Jarama...and so the plaque was promptly removed.

That blew my mind. If so-called socialists from the Protestant community can do that then how can they consider themselves socialist?

Belfast Bookworm, I think the question you pose i...

2013-02-24T20:19:16.107Z

Belfast Bookworm,

I think the question you pose is apt. Nobody has yet come up with a way of enlisting the support of the Unionist working class. All the Marxist class analysis has proved futile.

Unfortunately the constitutional issue has been one nut that supposed class unity has failed to crack.

Reply to Alec, To be fair I dont think the 'p...

2013-01-24T14:36:42.940Z

Reply to Alec,

To be fair I dont think the 'protestant working class' are the only ones who identify more with religion and cultural. The reality is most people in the North identify with this hence the GFA etc.

I can't speak on behalf of the rest of left but certainly anarchists dont believe everything can be reduced to class. For example in the latest Irish anarchist review Paul points out in his article on'Rethinking Class: From Recomposition to Counterpower' that

''The class line remains the San Andreas fault-line of capitalist society. It remains the only fault-line with the power to create a rupture strong enough to bring down the whole edifice of the capitalist social order. This remains as true today as it was at the beginning of capitalist class society. In answer to the question we posed ourselves at the start of this article - is class still a useful tool for the project of social transformation - we can conclude that it is not only useful but necessary.

Simply put, so long as the majority of people do not perceive their material interests to be in some way fundamentally in conflict with the basic mechanics of capitalism, then so long will the project of ending capitalism with the consent and participation of the vast majority of society remain a pipe dream. To paraphrase Voltaire’s quip about the necessity of inventing god, just because class really does exist, does not mean it isn’t necessary to continually re-invent it. Today, in the 21st century, the project of the recomposition of an antagonistic class counterpower that can not only resist capital, but work towards its destruction remains as vital as ever.''

Its not the the left promotes working class unity as pre-requesit for irish unity. To me it is much more than that because i dont believe as I have heard from some republicans that irish unity will end sectarianism. Afterall, sectarianism, nationalism and unionism pre-dates partition and with our without Britain's involvement one could easily make an argument for the sake of is that given these 'historical realities' partition and ''çarnival of reaction'' was inevitable.

BTW, Im not suggesting that Britain's role in Ireland is one of a neutral peacemaker because clearly the evidence suggests otherwise( collusion, state terrorism) and the forces of imperialism always have their own agenda.

Lastly the partition of Ireland is no more artificial than any other state which are artificial lines on the map, imposed by squabbling ruling classes (for example the scramble of africa). We need to look beyond the the state if we are to solve some of the key questions in the 21st century in relation to wars, imperialism etc.

It is worth referring to the german anarchist syndicalist Rudolf Rocker on the subject of nationalism and patriotism; “we must not forget that we are always dealing with the organised selfishness of privileged minorities which hide behind the skirts of the nation, hide behind the credulity of the masses. We speak of national interests, national capital, national spheres of interest, national honour, and national spirit; but we forget that behind all this there are hidden merely the selfish interests of power-loving politicians and money-loving business men for whom the nation is a convenient cover to hide their personal greed and their schemes for political power from the eyes of the world.’

James, some of the people who got involved cou...

2013-01-22T18:38:48.575Z
James,

some of the people who got involved could be described as self serving psychopaths, sociopaths and undesirables with nothing else to offer ... Often in times of war history teaches us that a psychopath often becomes a hero, in times of peace he becomes a psychopath.

Hasn’t been an army yet that was free of the type. A more important question would seem to be what systemic failures caused organisations to exist that such people and many other people could join?

AM, I think you are spot on here. Class reduction...

2013-01-22T18:12:11.961Z
AM,

I think you are spot on here. Class reductionism, to use your own term, is a form of false consciousness afflicting many on the left.

It appears to me that the protestant working class people identify more with religious and cultural markers than with class.

I would refer to the famous public debate between Connolly and Walker on this very issue. Walker, as a unionist, was quite willing to considedr some form of social demoracy so long as it did not compromise the constitutional position. The link with the British labour movement was strongly prefered over the creation of a revolutionary socialist political party firmly rooted in Irish affairs and commited to Irish unity.

The sticks and most of the Irish left have promoted the idea of working class unity as a pre condition for unification. If the blight of sectarianism could be replaced with a genuine working class solidarity then real progress could be made towards our collective goals.

This is a reducitionist viewpoint that ignores concrete historical realities.

AM said... Experience is a good teacher and w...

2013-01-22T17:40:56.228Z
AM said...

Experience is a good teacher and what it has taught thus far is that there will be no united working class in the North that can manage to jump the constitutional fence. We have heard the critique of class reductionism so often that it surprises me somewhat that people think a class should carry an ideology around on its back like a car does a number plate (that is an analogy taken from Nicos Poulantzas).

That does not mean that common cause should not be struck with loyalists where it can be to the betterment of society. But it is going to be single issues, not all embracing.

When I have spoken with loyalists about left wing issues they perform the same song but want it sung on a different stage. They don’t buy into the notion that the position of the working class throughout Ireland will be improved by Irish unity. And they also seem to take the position that there is more room for left wing politics in London than in Dublin.

Frankie; fair points. But if I was a community wor...

2013-01-20T09:00:13.725Z
Frankie; fair points. But if I was a community worker in a Protestant community I wouldn't be trying to 'unite the divide'. This shared history/future nonsense isn't working - they're (community relations council, various city councils, ofmdfm) are throwing money at it and apart from a few junkets, no real progress has been made.

I'd be working to show how British imperialism was and is the root cause of the problems here and that not only have Catholics suffered as a result, but working class Protestants too.

Until they understand this there's no way forward in my opinion.

Something else the PUL community are pissed off wi...

2013-01-19T22:30:40.664Z
Something else the PUL community are pissed off with (and have been for a very long time). They have no real sense of a culture or identity. The Scottish, Welsh and English see themselves as British but each of them have their own seperate identities. Take out the 12th July Loyal Order marches and there isn't much else for the PUL community in the north to celebrate (thats on the surface).

If any community worker is reading this..Why don't you start talking about the shared cultural identity and shared history on both sides of the oxymormons a lot more. For example some the best writers to come from Ireland were protestants. Their grandfathers (like the PUL community claim today), came across during the plantations. But they seen themselves as Irish first and talked about irish affairs and injustices. Musically the divide has been crossed. Van the man has made trad Irish music with the Chieftans (so has James Galway), the fiddle is a big part in the sound of trad Irish music but the instrument and sound came from Scotland (PUL heritage).. You could talk about actors who have united the divide, sports men & women. And there is more than a cross pollenation between Ulster-Scots lang and the Irish lang. Art work is the same.. You have to make people understand that when you take Britian out of the equation, the two cultures are very close (Ulster-Scots & Irish).

In a nutshell, the PUL community need to rediscover their sense of celtness and not be embarrassed about their Irishness

Another rant to the Folks on the hill, stop of pussy footing about, set a date for knocking down the oxymorons (keep one or two and dress them up like Checkpoint Charlie<--to fleece American & Japaneses tourists..). Fellas, on the other side of the pond Americans stage manage mock battles of their civil war. And everyone goes home fed & watered and familes have a good day out. A mock battle of the Boyne, properly staged managed to fleece more tourists isn't rocket science to figure out (you must tell it as it was, a small battle in a European war that we are still paying the price for).

Frankie; Jim Wilson has to be the first person in ...

2013-01-19T11:17:55.320Z
Frankie; Jim Wilson has to be the first person in the history of Ireland to say 'we started it'. I think he could've bitten off his Tongue once he did though.

But he says he is a community worker which indicates he is being paid to do a job. Why isn't he doing it? A community workers job is to develop their community, to educate, build capacity and empower. This clearly hasnt and isn't being done in east Belfast and is being demonstrated even in the fact that that community doesn't appear to know what they're actually protesting against or who they're angry with.

They seem to think a flag is their 'culture' or 'britishness'. No one appears to have told anyone that these things are actually an experience or journey or sense of something.

Jim Wilson should give his wages back to DSD or whoever pays him.

Anthony; leave Michael Henry alone!

Belfast Bookworm, it never ceases to bemuse or ev...

2013-01-19T10:06:40.829Z
Belfast Bookworm,

it never ceases to bemuse or even amuse that those who never fought it can claim to have won it.

Bookworm, if I was from the PUL community, I call ...

2013-01-19T00:16:37.329Z
Bookworm, if I was from the PUL community, I call what you said an honest appraisal. They are smarting from their own apathy and lashing out.

Bookworm you said you have a problem trying to get your head around the protests/violence. Jim Wilson has the same problem.

Frankie; 'He did have a very valid point when ...

2013-01-18T22:53:10.871Z
Frankie; 'He did have a very valid point when he said the PUL's anger is misdirected at the Alliance party. It should be at SF/SDLP.'

Maybe, for the flag issue. But in general their anger should be directed at their own political leaders surely? If they're feeling disenfranchised, polarised etc etc then they should be making their own reps accountable.

If I was feeling like that I wouldn't be blaming anyone other than my own elected reps because they are supposed to represent me. My anger wouldn't be directed at dup, uup or anyone else - I would expect nothing of them, I would be under no illusion that they would fight my comer for even the smallest issue so anger at them would be futile.

Is this too rationale maybe?

Well thank God and his holy mother for that - Larr...

2013-01-18T22:19:35.497Z
Well thank God and his holy mother for that - Larry I mean. I thought all had been lost!

I agree with you regarding people needing breathing space. Our people were war weary and who could blame us?

I'd disagree with you though re people believing SF won. Certainly the 'old hands' who know the craic won't say this, but the new shinners do and I think it's more than whistling in the dark, I think they truly believe it.

mackers 'Larry will no more vote SF than I wi...

2013-01-18T22:15:31.851Z
mackers

'Larry will no more vote SF than I will. He is yanking the chains to get a rise'.

How could you!! i feel so naked and exposed!!!

I heard Gerry Kelly's gaff too Bookworm. At l...

2013-01-18T22:12:33.163Z
I heard Gerry Kelly's gaff too Bookworm. At least he was telling the truth (can't slate him for that). He did have a very valid point when he said the PUL's anger is misdirected at the Alliance party. It should be at SF/SDLP.

And when Nolan asked him directly as to why Robinson & McGuinness haven't stood shoulder to shoulder publicly and denounced the violence, his response was interesting (McGuinness has asked but Peter has yet to do it).

Why wont Peter do as he did over Massereene & Ardoyne and condeme the violence shoulder to shoulder Martin? Answers on a postcard to the TPQ....winner gets a yrs subscription to here

Belfast Bookworm, I think people were glad the wa...

2013-01-18T22:01:54.706Z
Belfast Bookworm,

I think people were glad the war had ended. It allowed them to breathe a little more freely. I don't know if people really believe SF won. They do feel they made significant progress within the Northern state. Even some of the most loyal Shinners have been commenting that what is in place now is not what was fought for, but they will stick with it as it is progress.

Larry will no more vote SF than I will. He is yanking the chains to get a rise.

Anthony; 'how little republicanism got out of ...

2013-01-18T21:54:42.187Z
Anthony; 'how little republicanism got out of the GFA'

But you have to hand it to them (SF) at how well they've played it out. People out there genuinely believe republicans 'won' thanks to the spin the shinners have worked.

They've ((SF) painted an illusion of equality, justice etc - basically the crumbs off the tables of the powerheads, and nationalists think this is great. Quite understandable for nationalists, but when republicans start believing it that's when we run into real problems.

The shinners pay lip service to a united Ireland every chance they get but I have forgotten the last time they really went for the 32 county socialist republic debate. They've nailed the whole thing if the truth be told. They were the better spin doctors.

Meanwhile, you have idiotic young loyalists rioting over a fleg, that became more than a fleg, that became not about the fleg at all and people like Larry saying he'll vote SF again.

Confused?

Belfast Bookworm, just watched a recording of The...

2013-01-18T21:36:23.748Z
Belfast Bookworm,

just watched a recording of The View and have to agree with you. Adams was woeful in his argument about the border poll. He made Arleen Foster, May Blood and Michael McGimpsey sound astute observers.

With him pushing it we can rest assured it is not going to happen. Why there is not one every ten years rather than allowing the Brits to decide is even further evidence of how little republicanism got out of the GFA.

I often wonder just how bad unionist political lea...

2013-01-18T21:15:23.463Z
I often wonder just how bad unionist political leaders can get at their own PR.

If I was one I'd be screaming it from the rooftops that they'd won, the IRA lost and their wee country is safer than ever.

PSF are so smart and good at PR that they've convinced their grass roots they won when they didn't and unionists are so stupid and crap at selling themselves that their people think they lost, when in fact they won.

Unionists have done great out if the GFA. It baffles me why they don't grasp this.

itsjustmacker i agree with 'feel the love'...

2013-01-18T13:52:43.059Z
itsjustmacker

i agree with 'feel the love' regarding marty having had a bad political experience with SF, sure who didn't? But why continue tormenting yourself? They simply proved to be politicians like the rest of the scum.

Water will find its own level politically in the north and through time the hun nazis simply wont count. Enjoy your life, site back and enjoy the hun-state (what's left of it) decompose before your eyes.

Arlene Foster just confirms to me the huns are not worth pampering. stuff it right up-em!

Here's a solution about the flag. We keep the ...

2013-01-18T13:06:35.496Z
Here's a solution about the flag. We keep the design of the union flag but change the blue to green, red to orange and white stays white..

It's just an idea folks..

Mackers I dont find them interesting, young or ol...

2013-01-18T12:00:17.743Z
Mackers I dont find them interesting, young or old.Hearing a former leader of the IRA like MMCG talking the way he does,has me cringing for so many reasons and I find it unacceptable,to me.I feel betrayed by MMCG because we were part of the same army.Pearse Doherty and the likes dont generate those same negative emotions of anger in me.This could be due to the fact that Pearse and his likes have not been sending people out to shoot & bomb one day and calling them traitors on another day because you dont agree with SF statedgy or because you still believe the brits only listen to the bomb & bullet. I am not registered to vote and if I ever did it would only be to participate in a border poll.AS a rule I dont like nor trust most politicians. When some of the lads on here post I fully understand where they are coming from.SF cause to much conflict within me because of the many faces and tongues they present and speak with.Case in point they impliment cuts at the behest of thier whitehall employers and then try and portray themselves as the champions of the working class or poor in the free sate.they are employing the tactic of start at the grassroots and when you can attract the middle class and gain more influence you move on.All the while the party and the policies change,different emphassis is put on different things and people.This direction leads you towards becoming the new FF/FG.When you reach that point you have become what you opposed and have neglected your origins.The cycle begins again with another bunch of I am going change the worlders.Those radicals that have been causing so much disruption on the roads lately are just being led by those they hate and are frustrated at in to a simular process.Though once the trouble stops they will be thrown to the wolves.

Feel te love I have had no experience/dealings wit...

2013-01-18T09:36:02.032Z
Feel te love I have had no experience/dealings with the dup yet they disgust me as much as quisling $inn £ein, just the other side of an inept and bigoted coin, and as full of carpetbaggers as q$£."there are not many of us that sf would give a toss about" well a cara that initself should answer all your questions after all most people who get involved in politics do so because they do care.

Feel te love I have had no experience/dealings wit...

2013-01-18T09:35:41.016Z
Feel te love I have had no experience/dealings with the dup yet they disgust me as much as quisling $inn £ein, just the other side of an inept and bigoted coin, and as full of carpetbaggers as q$£."there are not many of us that sf would give a toss about" well a cara that initself should answer all your questions after all most people who get involved in politics do so because they do care.