Comments on The Pensive Quill: No Disgrace in Embrace

2011-01-02T19:51:34.520Z

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Anthony, “It is not the volume of rapes John or h...

2011-01-01T01:46:13.253Z

Anthony,

“It is not the volume of rapes John or how they compare against other institutions but how a culture of rape flourished aided and abetted by the Church hierarchy which allowed rape to continue; not because bishops condoned the act of rape it but because they felt the reputation of the Church should come before the protection of the child. This is what causes the scandal.”

I agree that to put the reputation of the Church before the protection of children was, if proven, short-sighted, and scandalous.

“These malevolent men who would try to tell us how to live ethically. The sheer chutzpah of it. The exact same as happened with Sinn Fein and the rape of the child Aine Tyrell.”

Absolutely. But let us not tar them all with the same brush. Many who told us how to live ethically were not involved in any way with these scandals. Just as not everyone in Sinn Féin had a part in their scandals.

“But one the way through it is to try in open court those who covered it up. Not more cover ups of the role of Ratzinger and his henchmen.”

But there is a serious lack of evidence in trying to implicate the Pope. There are so many people trying to implicate him, but so little in the way of hard evidence. My major problem is that many who call for action are more interested in scalping a Pope than in justice. They would like to pursue the Pope with ‘British Justice’, no jury, no evidence and a swift conviction.

“But society will get by without the Church. We don’t need it.”

I do not believe that this is true. You see this is the heart of the problem. Is the Catholic Church a Divine institution, (albeit it composed of men and women with all their human frailties), or is it man-made? I guess you would go for the latter option. Well, in that case, you should be happy; because there is no way any human institution could get through this and survive. I believe future generations will see this time as yet another proof that it is a Divine institution. How many people and ‘isms’ have written the obituary of the Catholic Church and yet it continues. In my view that is miraculous.

John McGirr ‘My point is not that there is a lin...

2010-12-31T21:10:55.453Z

John McGirr

‘My point is not that there is a link between homosexuality and
Paedophilia’

But not between the priesthood and paedophilia? The priesthood provided a great cover for the rape of children. Where and in what other institution has child rape been so systematically covered up? In the Church child rapists must have thought they had found heaven before they died. It is not the volume of rapes John or how they compare against other institutions but how a culture of rape flourished aided and abetted by the Church hierarchy which allowed rape to continue; not because bishops condoned the act of rape it but because they felt the reputation of the Church should come before the protection of the child. This is what causes the scandal. These malevolent men who would try to tell us how to live ethically. The sheer chutzpah of it. The exact same as happened with Sinn Fein and the rape of the child Aine Tyrell.

This is why I agree with Nuala, a believer, who said:

‘the more I read this stuff, the more I understand why ordinary
decent people would not want to touch the church any church with a
barge pole.’

Your reply was:

‘That is a natural reaction, but I believe we have to find a way through
this.’

But one the way through it is to try in open court those who covered it up. Not more cover ups of the role of Ratzinger and his henchmen. But society will get by without the Church. We don’t need it. For those that do, let them go to it in the same way that they go to their golf clubs. The rules of the club are for the club only and will always be trumped by civil law.

Alfie, You have made some interesting points whic...

2010-12-28T22:22:06.125Z

Alfie,

You have made some interesting points which I need more time to look into. Although I do believe the point that I was making was clearly established. However rather than just answer what I think is the case I intend to look into the points you raised and come back, if necessary, with a more informed reply.

John, no problem. I have been a fan of Kung sinc...

2010-12-28T00:46:18.716Z

John,

no problem. I have been a fan of Kung since reading Infallible in 1982. Not that I have followed him deeply. I read his book on evolution, religion and science a while back. It was quite good. I am not a fan of the warlike Weigel but will leave that for another day.
Good night

Anthony, I know where you are coming from with th...

2010-12-28T00:27:16.625Z

Anthony,

I know where you are coming from with the volume of posts. There are a few more points I would like to go into, but they will have to wait for a few days.

In reference to familly commitments, you mentioned before:

"Don't worry your wife will not We divorcing you. She will get one of those rigged annulments!!"

There are many evils going on within the Catholic Church and I have to agree that this is one, although of a completely different nature than the heinous abuse of children.

That is why I am a Real/Continuity Catholic, a true dissenter unlike the tired old liberal Hans Kung variety.

John, the sheer time taken up in these discussion...

2010-12-27T23:50:44.058Z

John,

the sheer time taken up in these discussions has left me struggling to meet my other commitments. I think I might be getting divorced by the wife and disowned by the kids! There is a whole host of points being discussed on different threads and I can no longer keep up with the the volume. Even my reading time has gone! I will in time try to answer all your points. But I do intend trying to restrict myself to one comment per day on any subject - if I can manage to resist the pull.

John, Brian W. Clowes’ - “Ephebophilia, or the se...

2010-12-27T23:45:21.772Z

John,

Brian W. Clowes’ - “Ephebophilia, or the sexual desire for adolescent boys, has always been a hallmark of homosexuality, as shown by numerous scientific
studies, and as admitted by "gay" leaders themselves on many occasions.”

‘Surely the real crime would be, if Catholic leaders thought this were
the case and did not seek to stop the influx of homosexuals into the
priesthood.’

This is based on the same false assumption that stopping child rape is what drives Catholic leaders. Protecting the reputation of the Church has been prioritised over child protection.

Children need protection from abusers whether they be gay or straight. They also need protection from the Catholic Church that treated them as children of a lesser god. Were the Church primarily concerned about child protection it would have a root and branch cleansing of its own institution not the desperate rearguard action it has been waging for years. Things are so bad that we have an internationally renowned human rights lawyer making the case in a book dedicated to the topic that Ratzinger should be tried for crimes against humanity.

An then this phrase ‘objectively disordered’. I know gay men and women and I would struggle to find one more objectively disordered than any of the clerics who covered clerical rape of children. Surely, it stands to reason who is guilty of the greatest crime.

‘After all, this used to be the commonly accepted view in all societies and it may just turn out to be the right one.’

Just as the earth once was flat.

John, "My point was that it was absolutely s...

2010-12-27T17:00:02.026Z

John,

"My point was that it was absolutely socially unacceptable to have homosexual relations with an equal. ... Homosexuality in Greek society was almost exclusively of the type that many are denying that there is even a connection. Yes, there is a link between pederasty and homosexuality."

I don't think it's as simple as that. To my knowledge, it was not socially acceptable either for women to wait until they were older to marry in ancient Greece; they were expected to do so as soon as puberty occurred in order to guarantee their virginity for their husbands. Also, men typically married in their thirties when they had finished their military service. So my point is that both heterosexual and homosexual norms in ancient Greece had a similar age-structure. (Prostitution was probably the exception - female prostitutes spanned all age-groups, but male prostitutes were usually adolescents. However, teenage prostitutes of both sexes seemed to be favoured and commanded the highest prices.) Moreover, I think the social restrictions on homosexuality in ancient Greece became a self-fulfilling prophecy: because sex between adult men was very much frowned upon, it tended not to be common or at least it was not spoken of. But even if homosexual behaviour was much different than heterosexual behaviour in ancient Greece, there is no evidence that what went on then is indicative of homosexual behaviour today, just as there is no evidence that contemporary heterosexual men prefer young teenage brides.

PS. That article you referred to also makes the following points:

"It is now clear that homosexuality was not restricted to pederasty, and that we have to study our evidence more carefully. ... It also appears that the difference in age did not really matter. Not youth, but beauty was important. ... There are many pictures of boys courting boys, boys playing sexual games, and adult men having intercourse. Yet, the latter was probably unusual or not spoken about, because the passive partner (pathikos) was - as we have already seen - subject to ridicule."

John, ‘In an essay called Homosexuality and the C...

2010-12-27T14:04:45.948Z

John,

‘In an essay called Homosexuality and the Church Crisis, Brian W. Clowes’

Not previously being aware of this I called it up and was immediately put off by his anti-women agenda and the claim that it was all opportunistic. Which undermines his own claim to being shut up by the gay community.

That said, I persevered without going into super critical mode and it seems to be a piece worth reading. I will do so when more time permits.

I have serious problems with any view that is suppressed by a loud shout of ‘phobe’ with whatever the current of the day prefixed to it. Islamophobia has often been used to quell free inquiry. Same with chants of racism. We need access to the widest possible range of ideas so that in reaching a conclusion we will have at least considered what we discard. That way the decision reached should be robust, having grown on its own steam rather than having been afforded the dubious protectionism afforded by censorship of alternatives. I have seen how the vilest of practices can be carried out aided and abetted by those who shouted ‘phobe’ against a critique.

A much better case for your view would come if it originated in a secular quarter. My ears tend to prick up when secularists make arguments against abortion for example; if they try to demonstrate why it is good for humanity to oppose abortion. I do not advocate abortion but defer to a woman’s right to choose what to do with her body. I cannot abide by any cleric telling her what to do with it. I am simply not interested in religious prejudice against anything, be it cartoonists, gays, pro-choice groups.

So if an argument against gays is simply dismissed on grounds of the argument not being PC I am instantly suspicious and will make a point of hearing the argument. On that Randy Engel does seem to fit the homophobe billing. Some Catholic bodies have even blocked her addressing their meetings because of unsubstantiated allegations and assertions.

John , ‘I suppose my main point in that post was ...

2010-12-27T09:16:33.411Z

John ,

‘I suppose my main point in that post was that you were saying the CDF
should have no say in Ireland.’

No censor should be allowed to ply their nefarious trade in Ireland. Have we not had enough of them?

‘the right of the CDF to silence someone they deem as having written something that contradicted Catholic moral teaching.’

What is so special about either the CDF or Catholic moral teaching that a critique of either must be censored?

‘The Catholic Church is surely best qualified to decide what way it should be organised.’

Most definitely not. Look at the litany of abuse that approach bequeathed to us. Canon law, as McDowell says, should carry the status of a golf club. When a golf club is organised to the serious detriment of children then its claim to be best placed to decide how to organise itself is rendered null and void.

‘I cannot get away from the fact that the great majority of cases involved male homosexual abuse of adolescents, which suggests that if there were fewer homosexuals in the priesthood there would be fewer cases of clerical sexual abuse.’

Presuming this is true is it homosexuals that engaged in the egregious crime of cover up?

‘Priests freely give this up (right to sex) when they make commitments not to engage in legitimate sexual activity, let alone illegitimate.’

Ignoring the legitimate/illegitimate distinction, if that is the rule of the golf club and I want to join it I guess I have to abide. But the golf club cannot infringe on my human right to embrace my sexuality.

Alfie, The term abomination is one that better fi...

2010-12-27T08:38:03.260Z

Alfie,

The term abomination is one that better fits the clerical rapists than ever it did homosexuals. There is nothing abominable about two consenting adults having sex. There is much abominable about a cleric raping a child and plenty abominable about the hierarchy covering it up and intimidating children into silence.

‘With regard to Archbishop Fisichella, he doesn't advocate abortion,
which he says is "always bad". He just didn't think that the mother of
a raped, pregnant, nine-year-old girl should be excommunicated for
procuring an abortion for her daughter.’

I know what I would do if it were my own daughter. There would be no question about it. I would extend the same latitude to anyone else’s daughter in a similar situation.

‘Also the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith came out in support of the bishop who ordered the excommunications of the mother and the doctors who performed the abortion.’

And cover up for clerical rapists. We can expect little else from that shower. Der Spiegel is on Ratzinger’s case at the minute over allegations of a pass the pervert policy when he was in the German hierarchy.

‘Does it really matter who's fucking who as long as no-one gets hurt?’

The problem with that for the Church is that it deprives the clerics of an awful lot of power to police people’s lives.

Alfie, My point was that it was absolutely social...

2010-12-27T00:46:55.507Z

Alfie,

My point was that it was absolutely socially unacceptable to have homosexual relations with an equal.

"It was certainly shameful when a man with a beard remained the passive partner (pathikos) and it was even worse when a man allowed himself to be penetrated by another grown-up man. The Greeks even had a pejorative expression for these people, whom were called kinaidoi. They were the targets of ridicule by the other citizens, especially comedy writers. For example, Aristophanes (c.445-c.380) shows them dressed like women, with a bra, a wig and a gown, and calls them euryprôktoi, "wide arses"."

http://www.livius.org/ho-hz/homosexuality/homosexuality.html

Homosexuality in Greek society was almost exclusively of the type that many are denying that there is even a connection. Yes, there is a link between pederasty and homosexuality.

Anthony, "Do we know of any other institutio...

2010-12-26T21:48:08.472Z

Anthony,

"Do we know of any other institution, outside of the Argentine military of the 70s and 80s that covered up rape to the extent that the Church has?"

I haven't really investigated the matter, but I do not know of any. Certainly if homosexuality was the cause of the abuse and liberalism the cause of its cover-up, we should have seen similar abuse scandals (ie. widespread abuse of adolescent boys and its subsequent cover-up) in other institutions throughout Europe and parts of America.

"It probably depends on what is intrinsically evil and what is described as evil. Also depends on circumstance to some extent."

Yes, I would agree. Notions of right and wrong must consider the context of an action.

"I don’t think a woman who has an abortion is evil. I think those Christians who kill abortion doctors are evil."

Again, I would agree for the most part. I don't have an objection to abortion in the first 20-26 weeks of the pregnancy because the foetus probably cannot feel pain before then; after that though, I'm not sure if abortion is ethical - at the very least, the foetus ought to be anaesthetised. I must say that if rape is not involved, I fail to see why abortion is so common, given the relative ease with which one can access contraception these days.

"Not an evil at all. A terrible moral dilemma but not an evil choice. The evil choice would be to wave the bible and then make some pronouncement on the basis of that."

"Lesser of two evils" was perhaps the wrong choice of words. I don't think it was evil for the mother to procure an abortion for her nine-year-old daughter. I was just trying to explain to John that while neither outcome was ideal, the least worst outcome for the girl was probably the abortion. Certainly going through pregnancy and motherhood would have been a horrendous ordeal for her; moreover, though John disputes that the girl's life was at risk, the doctor who carried out the abortion seems to genuinely believe that it was and, until I see evidence to the contrary, I would accept his judgment. This is what he said:

"If the pregnancy had continued, the damage would have been worse, being a high risk pregnancy. The risk would have been of death or at the very least that she would never have been able to become pregnant again. ... There are two legal justifications for abortion envisioned by the law, which are rape and risk to life. She [the girl] falls within the two and, as a doctor, I could not let a girl of nine years be submitted to this suffering and even pay with her own life."

John, "Are you aware that there is an overwh...

2010-12-26T18:27:59.786Z

John,

"Are you aware that there is an overwhelming link between homosexuality and pederasty in ancient Greece? (If not sure, Google it and see.) Why do you think that it should be different today? Human nature remains the same today as it was then."

You neglect to mention that marriage in ancient Greece was typically between men in their thirties and girls in their teens, usually about 14 or 15 years old. The fact that it is no longer socially acceptable (in Western societies anyway) for either heterosexuals or homosexuals to have sexual relationships with young teenagers shows that society can change for the better.

Nuala, ‘They were monsters and the church provide...

2010-12-26T10:11:10.750Z

Nuala,

‘They were monsters and the church provided them with a safe haven over
and over again.’

There is simply no getting away from it.

The monstrous men of god as they were once described.

Alfie,

‘I'm against the death penalty, which I consider to be morally wrong. Nevertheless, I believe executing someone by a less painful method,
like lethal injection, is better than hanging or beating or burning
someone to death. So lethal injection, though wrong in an overall
sense, is perhaps a step in the right direction; it is certainly more
moral than inflicting an incredibly painful death on someone’

This is the reformist’s ethical dilemma. I think if, in the course of your opposition to capital punishment, you manage to lessen its worst effects it is a move that keeps you on the right side of the fence so to speak. But if you are part of the administration of capital punishment and you introduce lethal injection as a more humane form then that throws a different light on your position.

"[It] is never morally permissible to do evil, even to attain a good."

It probably depends on what is intrinsically evil and what is described as evil. Also depends on circumstance to some extent.

Eating the dead is viewed as evil by many but when the rugby team survivors did it in the Andes how can we condemn them?

I don’t think a woman who ha an abortion is evil. I think those Christians who kill abortion doctors are evil. While opposing capital punishment I had little sympathy for that cretin Paul Hill who got the lethal injection in the US for killing a health professional.

‘So, all in all, I would say that if the girl was at risk of death or serious injury, then aborting the twins may well have been the lesser of two evils.’

Not an evil at all. A terrible moral dilemma but not an evil choice. The evil choice would be to wave the bible and then make some pronouncement on the basis of that.

Does anybody think Sodom and Gomorrah ever happened? Arguably it was a fiction used by the anti gay lobby of the day to persecute people they did not like.

‘But isn't that just a bible story?’

Just like the talking snake?

John, all that aside I did find the Herr McGirr i...

2010-12-24T11:29:43.989Z

John,

all that aside I did find the Herr McGirr issue very witty!

'there is a suspicion that somehow the fact that he is German is something to be held against him.'

That would not be so. I think what it does do is not address him as he sits atop his lofty perch and strips him of any authority. He is a herr or a mister like the rest of us.

'This is compounded with your accusations elsewhere of ‘the church’s disgusting stance during the war.’

Which it did have. That Pius X11 managed to get on the sainthood track leaves a bad taste in the mouths of many.

Dawkins, I don't always agree with but in saying 'Mussolini-concocted principality' he is right if my reading of history is correct.

'Yes, ‘Mr’ is a term of address in England, but the use in cases like this go beyond the irreverent and verge on the xenophobic.'

Inferring too much from too little. What would there be in anything I have written to suggest an anti-German outlook?

'Isn’t it curious how they always go back to ‘the War’ when rallying their jingoistic rabble?'

Nothing curious about it - they like to be jingoistic. In terms of the Vatican the resentment is towards its claim to be a moral leader when its wartime activity amongst other great immoralities strips it of the authority to moralise.

'I do hope to get back to one or two points in the near future, and then get down to proving the existence of God'

we will wait on that. You will be the first.

Don't worry your wife will not We divorcing you. She will get one of those rigged annulments!!

I suppose you know by now we are a pretty profane lot here with little in the way of the sacred prevailing.

Happy Christmas to you and thanks for generating an interesting and vibrant discussion.

Anthony, I just wanted to address the issue of yo...

2010-12-24T01:53:26.322Z

Anthony,

I just wanted to address the issue of you referring to the Pope as ‘Herr.’ This is by no means of critical importance, hence the reason that although I picked you up in my original post about it, I didn’t respond to your first reply where you justified this use. My lack of response caused someone else to take this as my lack of understanding and tried to use it as an example of my ignorance and how they needed to correct me.

Here is my take on your use of the word ‘Herr.’ Firstly it is NOT a title that would be given to the Pope, other than by means of an insult. Fair enough, you call it ‘irreverence,’ I’ll go along with that. The problem is that when I see you call him ‘Herr’ and elsewhere the Holy Fuerher’ and refer to his ‘Hitler Youth’ past, there is a suspicion that somehow the fact that he is German is something to be held against him. This is compounded with your accusations elsewhere of ‘the church’s disgusting stance during the war.’

Your referring to the Pope as ‘Herr’ reminds me of the words or Dawkins with his;

“Mr Ratzinger, as head of the world’s second most evil religion you are not welcome. ……. Go home to your tinpot Mussolini-concocted principality, and don’t come back."

Yes, ‘Mr’ is a term of address in England, but the use in cases like this go beyond the irreverent and verge on the xenophobic.

I do not accuse you personally of racism, but I cannot help but see that there are possible racist undertones, which, if I were to see such usages in, e.g. the Sun or another British rag, I would be less likely to give them the benefit of the doubt, with their simmering anti-German sentiments (and in Dawkins’ case anti-Italian). Isn’t it curious how they always go back to ‘the War’ when rallying their jingoistic rabble?

As I say, not the most important of issues, especially as I accept that your use is one of irreverence, but I do think there are dangers with terms like this. Just as not everyone would take your ‘kick the Pope’ musings as entirely unobjectionable, when we know where such sentiments can lead.

I don't intend to answer everything you have written, as my wife wiill divorce me if I do. I do hope to get back to one or two points in the near future, and then get down to proving the existence of God, which I believe you cast doubt on in your initial response to me.

Meanwhile, have a very happy Christmas and New Year!

Alfie, ‘Cheers to the Quill - I'm drunk as a ...

2010-12-23T16:41:24.304Z

Alfie,

‘Cheers to the Quill - I'm drunk as a lord!!!!’

Drink the whiskey more often. There is some great stuff here.

So Haring received the treatment Kung got? The totalitarian hierarchy certainly does not appreciate its dissidents. All totalitarians bodies are the same.

‘the study "Human Sexuality" was indeed commissioned by the Catholic Theological Society of America, but the society found the study's conclusions too radical and published it without endorsement.’

This coupled with your lengthy exploration of the matter certainly puts a new perspective in place and one which is radically different from John’s.

"No physical expression of sexuality, including oral sex, provided it be mutually sensitive and acceptable, should be prejudged as morally wrong or perverse."

If this does not involve children what possibly could be wrong with it?

John,

What sort of mind is it that can find something wrong with a man sticking a rubber on his tool as a plausible device to stop the spread of AIDS? If more priests had put rubbers rather than altar boys on their tools the Church would not be in the position it is in today. It really amazes me that people are being condemned to death by Vatican edict.

‘Saint Peter Damian’s words reflect traditional Catholic teaching on this vice:

“It infects everything, stains everything, pollutes everything; leaving nothing pure, nothing but filth, nothing clean.”

But this statement would apply more to the Church than the gay community.

‘To a Catholic who regards this vice as an abomination, it is easy to see how someone addicted to it could be so corrupted that they would abuse children.’

This suggests the real corruption lies in being gay rather than in the abuse of children.

Alfie, ‘I think that the reason most clerical se...

2010-12-23T11:56:10.617Z

Alfie,

‘I think that the reason most clerical sex abuse is perpetrated on adolescent boys is that pederasts were attracted to the male-dominated institution of the Catholic Church, with its easy access to adolescent males who served on altars or were pupils in Catholic schools.’

I imagine the paedophile is a particular type of being who is primarily sexually attracted to children not to the specific gender of the child. Had the church been populated with young girls the abuser priests would have been raping them as quickly. The Church seemed to have been caused more anxiety by Bishop Casey behaving naturally – he bonked a woman – than it ever was by child rape.

‘I would accept that, in general, priests are no more likely to abuse
children or adolescents than any other group of men; however, the abuse that did occur was systematically concealed by the Church, and so, like any other institution that did this, it must be held to account.’

Do we know of any other institution, outside of the Argentine military of the 70s and 80s that covered up rape to the extent that the Church has?

John,

The new morality' was devised by such people as Fr Bernard Haring …
One of its guiding principles was that no physical expression of sexuality is in itself “morally wrong or perverse” (H.S., p. 110)

If this is true then it is clearly rubbish and Haring should stand condemned for it. But I imagine this is not what he said at all. Because to say such would be to licence paedophilia. If by it he meant homosexuality, how could he be wrong? What is wrong with homosexuality that is not wrong with heterosexuality? If the Church does not like homosexual sex then those in it can refrain from engaging in it if they so choose. It cannot tell the rest of society to refrain. Or if it can it should carry all the authority of a soccer club in making its pronouncements.

Simon 'John, you said "the abuse in the ...

2010-12-23T00:07:15.892Z

Simon

'John, you said "the abuse in the Church is not paedophilia but rather one of predatory homosexuality which manifests itself in the abuse of post-pubescent males." I think you will find it is paedophilia. Predatory homosexuality doesn't necessarily mean a crime but paedophilia does.'

As the majority of the victims were aged between 12 and 17 it would constitute a crime in most jurisdictions. Homosexuality is, of course, always a crime against God and against nature and is made more heinous by its making victims of youth. I did also mention the word 'abuse' which you have quoted too, underlining this fact.

I don't particularly object to using the term 'paedophilia' providing it is understood that it is being used in a broader way than it is customary to use it.

John, you said "the abuse in the Church is no...

2010-12-22T23:01:41.360Z

John, you said "the abuse in the Church is not paedophilia but rather one of predatory homosexuality which manifests itself in the abuse of post-pubescent males." I think you will find it is paedophilia. Predatory homosexuality doesn't necessarily mean a crime but paedophilia does.

Simon, The comparison is between paedophiles who ...

2010-12-22T21:58:08.743Z

Simon,

The comparison is between paedophiles who tend to abuse pre-pubescent girls and sometimes boys, and homosexual priests who tend to abuse post-pubescent boys.

Strictly speaking the abuse within the Church is not that of paedophilia, but one of homosexual ephebophilia. The term paedophilia is often used but can cause confusion as it isn’t really accurate.

My point is not that there is a link between homosexuality and paedophilia, per se, but rather that the abuse in the Church is not paedophilia but rather one of predatory homosexuality which manifests itself in the abuse of post-pubescent males.

Are you aware that there is an overwhelming link between homosexuality and pederasty in ancient Greece? (If not sure, Google it and see.) Why do you think that it should be different today? Human nature remains the same today as it was then.

Of course, there are undoubtedly many other factors which play a part, but I believe that this is the predominant factor as that is where the evidence points.

John- You wrote, starting with an extract from my...

2010-12-22T20:36:17.330Z

John-

You wrote, starting with an extract from my post:

'“Girls are more likely to be abused by men than boys are...”

Yes, indeed they are, generally and that is why the abuse among Catholic priests is so unusual. It tends to be aimed at post pubescent males rather than females.'

You are admitting that it isn't homosexuality that is the problem but a combination of homosexuality and being a member of the priesthood that causes more "post pubescent males rather than females" to be targeted than girls. If your facts are correct it is not homosexuality but social factors that are the problem with some priests abusing children. Otherwise why would priests be different than the general population?

In the general population girls are more likely to be abused than boys and both groups are more likely to be abused by men. Therefore if priests go against this trend it is for a different reason than homosexuality.

Your link between homosexuality and paedophilia is broken.

John, I can hardly complain about you not respond...

2010-12-22T19:54:56.334Z

John,

I can hardly complain about you not responding. I get so little time myself and only now that I am off work and house bound by snow am I able to get around to posting. But cabin fever is kicking in and the kids are going mad so I may abandon ship and write nothing!!