Comments on The Pensive Quill: Fiery Terry

Robert “Perhaps one of the most terrifying monste...

2011-02-14T18:40:16.612Z

Robert

“Perhaps one of the most terrifying monsters to have walked the earth was Adolf Hitler and he by many accounts was a vegetarian!!”
Hitler as an herbivore would still fall under one of gods more defective creations.
The Hippo although docile in appearance and a grass eating behemoth is responsible for more deaths in Africa than the mighty flesh eating big cats.
I could see why Job, would have used this animal with a bit of creative license much the same way the Greeks mistake the skull of an elephant and decided that the trunk socket must be that of a giant one eyed man thus the Cyclops was born.

Robert, "Evolution is a fascinating conce...

2011-02-14T15:23:49.774Z
Robert,

"Evolution is a fascinating concept but if we agree on the criteria of a scientific theory as being observable testable,repeatable, or falsifiable then Evolution has no more scientific merit to it than Creationism."

Mutation and natural selection have been observed both in the laboratory and in the field. Replicable experiments, such as Lenski's E Coli experiment, provide scientific evidence of such phenomena. Evolution is based on observations - such as comparative anatomy, genetics and fossils - that can be repeated. The theory of evolution has been used to make predictions; for example, based on homologies with African apes, Darmwin predicted that human ancestors evolved in Africa. This has been supported by fossil and genetic evidence. And as for evolution being falsifiable, if the fossil record were shown to be static or if genuinely anachronistic fossils were discovered, then the theory of evolution would be undermined.

Source:

www.talkorgins.org

Yo Roibeard mo cara welcome back to looney land, w...

2011-02-14T01:36:47.570Z
Yo Roibeard mo cara welcome back to looney land, where women rule the roost and w##kers sit on the nest,anyway mo cara creationism wasnt meant to go as far as women with a brian, you see what the f##k you lot started in 69 when all we wanted was the right to beat the crap out of the wife on a Saturday night after a skinfull and then go to mass the next day with polished boots and eat the alter rails,good to see ya back even though all you say is, as they say down in the local conservative club in Anytout balderdash and piffle

Alfie, "But the biblical account flies in th...

2011-02-13T23:42:52.487Z
Alfie,

"But the biblical account flies in the face of all that we know."

If anything it flies in the face of an opposing interpretation of what we know. Evolution is a fascinating concept but if we agree on the criteria of a scientific theory as being observable testable,repeatable, or falsifiable then Evolution has no more scientific merit to it than Creationism.

Anthony, "thought you had been jailed for il...

2011-02-13T22:38:53.577Z
Anthony,

"thought you had been jailed for illegal marching. Good to see you are still about"

Thank you Anthony. In the words of the great 'oracle', I have'nt gone away you know!

Robert Welcome back your candor has been missed. ...

2011-02-13T21:15:26.612Z
Robert

Welcome back your candor has been missed.
Touché my friend as expected an engaging reply.

Robert, thought you had been jailed for illegal m...

2011-02-13T20:28:10.103Z
Robert,

thought you had been jailed for illegal marching. Good to see you are still about

Tain Bo, "Curious as to why a monster would ...

2011-02-13T20:09:35.325Z
Tain Bo,

"Curious as to why a monster would dine upon grass not exactly terrifying.."

Perhaps one of the most terrifying monsters to have walked the earth was Adolf Hitler and he by many accounts was a vegetarian!!

If Le Fanu's work isn't rated highly by th...

2011-01-04T12:59:33.878Z
If Le Fanu's work isn't rated highly by the scientific community then it's not through his lack of crudentials I whipped off his website...
"He studied the Humanities at Ampleforth College before switching to medicine, graduating from Cambridge University and the Royal London Hospital in 1974. He subsequently worked in the Renal Transplant Unit and Cardiology Departments of the Royal Free and St Mary’s Hospital in London. For the past twenty years he has combined working as a doctor in general practice with contributing a weekly column to the Sunday and Daily Telegraph. He has contributed articles and reviews to The New Statesman, Spectator, GQ, The British Medical Journal and Journal of the Royal Society of Medicine. He has written several books including ‘The Rise and Fall of Modern Medicine’ that won the Los Angeles Prize Book Award in 2001 and ‘Why Us?: How Science Rediscovered the Mystery of Ourselves’ that was published in Britain and the United States in February 2009."
...might I suggest he has been ostracised by the same community simply because he criticises Darwin.
The arogant closing remarks of the reveiw of his latest book by Amanda Gefter in the new scientist clearly show how anything outside of the Darwinian framework of evolution is simply discreditted - "I am all for a good mystery, but there is an important difference between revelling in the excitement of the unknown and turning away from knowledge because you simply don't like the facts."
The facts are that scientific evidence shows Darwinian evolutionary theory as contestable and without blind random mutation to explain the origin of the species another plausible explanation is the role of Intelligence at its source.Theology is the study of religions, religious faith, practice, experience or spirituality.The scientific pursuit of explanations is not the study of theology and it is a mistake to claim Intelligent Design a theological.If science points towards an intellegent agency behind nature then thats a scientific concept.
Moreover the new evidence I submitted highlights contradictions in Dover 'ethics' of "the science class is not being the place where religion should be," with Eugenie Scott, the NCSE's executive director and scientific and educational consultant for the plaintiffs in the Dover trial, encouraging biology teachers to spend class time having students read statements by religious leaders supporting evolution.
Anthony, my explanation of natural law I gave you earlier should deal with your statement - "Can’t apply – if there is a natural law which ‘just is’ as you claim then the lawmakers either have to be right or wrong."
Natural law is a law that is immanent in nature, ie can be discovered or found via human conscience but not created as opposed to the positive law of a given political community, society, or nation-state as represented by the lawmakers we speak of.

Robert, Richard makes a compelling case which has...

2011-01-02T16:07:11.914Z
Robert,

Richard makes a compelling case which has not been answered with any degree of persuasiveness. Just ‘blame the Brits and stick your fingers in your ears.’

Alfie,

‘To my mind though, what Le Fanu is arguing in relation to science's unanswered questions is analogous to arguing that, just because civilisation is flawed, we should all take off our pants, run around naked and start flinging shit
at each other.’

While his work might not be rated highly by the scientific community it is said that he writes beautifully. For that reason I have his book ‘Why Us?’ one in the Amazon basket.

Stefan ‘Separating ID from this as a scientific a...

2011-01-01T20:48:16.469Z
Stefan

‘Separating ID from this as a scientific approach, cause that's what it undeniably is irrespective of what a judge rules’

Not so. ID’s claim to be science is denied by theistic and atheistic scientists alike. So much for it being undeniable. Denying it the status of science is the very thing that has kept it our of the science room. Read the history of the ID movement. It wasn’t even started by a scientist. Look for the peer reviewed work and the research programmes. Not much there. Even with no scientific training I can see much that is suspicious about the entire project.

‘From an ethical viewpoint the ruling of ones countries lawmakers are not
necessarily right or wrong in the big scheme of things as we see with
conflicting laws in different countries addressing the same subject
matter’

Can’t apply – if there is a natural law which ‘just is’ as you claim then the lawmakers either have to be right or wrong.

‘As Robert Robb rightly said "that the courtroom is not where science
should be, or will be",’

He could have added that the science class is not the place where religion should be. The courtroom was used by parents who wanted their children’s rights protected from religious intrusion. Religious people in Dover wanted their children taught proper science. They even believed that there was intelligent design but that it was a theological rather than a scientific concept. They felt the people pushing ID were lying to them. They sought to have it tested in court. The court found in their favour and that the ID lobby had been lying.

‘you can't legislate against a concept that the design in nature is born of intelligence rather than chance.’

Nor should the concept be legislated against. But those who provided fraudulent testimony at Dover and who tried smuggling the concept into the classroom as science were rightly legislated against.

Anthony, I acknowledge you identify ID as an '...

2010-12-31T19:48:56.101Z
Anthony, I acknowledge you identify ID as an 'old idea' but all the same, even whilst I draw resources from DI I must stress they aren't the sole protaganists in the concept.Even whilst most associated with DI seem to be for the most part right wing Christian evangelicals utilising elements of their argument isn't a prerequisite for full subscription to their political aims.
The liberation theory of Gustavo Gutiérrez is a far cry from Archbishop Desmond Tutu's 'there is no difference between the teachings of Karl Marx and Jesus Christ' and the CDF, in my opinion, were right too highlight these focusing on institutional dimensions of sin to the exclusion of the individual and for allegedly misidentifying the church hierarchy as members of the privileged class

Stefan ‘Just as Jesus was a threat to the conser...

2010-12-31T08:04:55.747Z
Stefan

‘Just as Jesus was a threat to the conservative establishment of his time so is this ID concept.’

Not in the slightest. There is nothing progressive about it. While an old idea the current movement is pushed by the conservative religious right. Those associated with it seem to be for the most part right wing Christian evangelicals. Those presenting evidence for it lied in court – and were caught – in a bid to mask this. In fact the case has been made US capitalism can act as a bulwark against the theocrat drift toward ultra conservatism because of its dependence on people in the sciences. Business requires reasoning not theological ranting.

‘Jesus' teachings taken literally would mean a complete redistribution of wealth and a society set up with a very different focus in life in complete contradiction to all present Imperialist world powers.’

Liberation theology told us that much. Who in the Discovery Institute is calling for anything remotely like this? Is there anyone in the Discovery Institute that remotely resembles a liberation theologian? It has never been on the agenda of the right. And of course we know who moved to crush the liberation theologians.

Alfie,

Would be interested n your take on Ship Of Fools. You know my view on Afterlives so I hope you find it a good read. Good to know you are on the mend. Reading is good therapy but if things are not right, picking up a book can be the most daunting of challenges.

Stefan, My understanding is that each of the new ...

2010-12-30T21:13:37.916Z
Stefan,

My understanding is that each of the new species I listed cannot normally or naturally breed with their progenitor species or other closely related species; if they do, they almost always produce infertile or inviable offspring - just like lions and tigers.

The phrase 'a common thread' comes to mind...

2010-12-30T18:00:15.599Z
The phrase 'a common thread' comes to mind Anthony!
Alfie do you have any examples of speciation defined as the production of a novel population of individuals that can no longer breed with the progenitor population or any other population or are we stuck at the intermediate stage of incipient speciation?

Stefan, I no longer know what thread I am on.

2010-12-30T09:09:30.704Z
Stefan,

I no longer know what thread I am on.

Anthony, I've answered your questions re natur...

2010-12-30T08:54:44.240Z
Anthony, I've answered your questions re natural law over in Papal Bull thread as I thought them more relevant over there.

Stefan, "Sorry Alfie but birds with differen...

2010-12-29T19:06:51.159Z
Stefan,

"Sorry Alfie but birds with different beaks come to mind regarding your speciation example."

In the plant and animal kingdoms, speciation has been defined as the production of a novel population of individuals that can no longer breed with the progenitor population or any other population. As Mark Pallen observed, "If new species emerge gradually through branching evolution, rather than through sudden creation, we can expect to find intermediates along the path to speciation, from partially interbreeding populations via populations that can interbreed only with reduced or loss of fertility, to fully isolated populations." This is what we find.

"I see no one has taken up the role of criting Le Fanu then!!!"

I still haven't gotten around to reading all of the other pieces you mentioned and, like Anthony, I've neglected my other committments through my involvement in these discussions. Indeed, my family is wondering what I'm doing online so much! To my mind though, what Le Fanu is arguing in relation to science's unanswered questions is analogous to arguing that, just because civilisation is flawed, we should all take off our pants, run around naked and start flinging shit at each other.

Fiery Terry Stefan, ‘On this we both agree...the...

2010-12-29T12:13:59.670Z
Fiery Terry

Stefan,

‘On this we both agree...the Church should be open to the same societal scrutiny as other human institutions but allowances must be granted when secular law in greater society grants and bolsters infringement of natural law’

We agree up until the ‘but allowances …’ bit.

What natural law are you talking about? Not that I dislike the concept, pinning it down causes me a problem. Explain an infringement of it. And then presumably a golf club has as much right to comment on it as a church. And the extent to which a church should evade societal scrutiny as one of the ‘allowances’ should also apply to a golf club.

No privileging of religious opinion – do we agree on that?

Alfie,

‘Why do you think God would punish billions of people because of some eejit eating a fecking apple?’

When we strip away all the science that basic question remains a major barrier to belief.

Behe is the guy who said the intelligence behind the design might be aliens! Even here we see the attempt to mask the creationism. They know they don’t want to go in to bat at the crease with a Jesus Loves You sticker on the bat. The history of the ID movement on this is so revealing

In quoting the phrase beware the man of one book, ...

2010-12-29T10:40:01.263Z
In quoting the phrase beware the man of one book, to what book of the Bible (ta biblia - "the books") are we attributing this too?

There are some more studant testimonies on this vi...

2010-12-29T08:53:47.726Z
There are some more studant testimonies on this video plus the lengths the teaching institution was prepered to go legally to disuade Crocker from contesting her case.
I went back and listened to the interveiws I have with Crocker and I think she gives a fair representation of her argument in that she taught one class in the twenty five critiquing Darwin, hardly biased teaching in favour of ID, which Anthony you say cannot acquire a scientific status but the reality is that it is by scientific means that we find design in nature and why there is an ever growing list of dissenting scientists from Darwinian theory. You cannot teach a contentious theory without critque and I think Crocker was right in her approach to do what she did.

http://www.coralridge.org/equip/l2d-new/learn_2_discern.aspx?mediaID=2799&id=L2D081621&mediaID=L2D081621&title=Ben%E2%80%99s+Bad+Scientists

Anthony, "I might go for the Hitchens Hitch ...

2010-12-28T21:26:47.261Z
Anthony,

"I might go for the Hitchens Hitch 22 or the Marty Frampton one on dissident republican. Both are in the house."

I thumbed Hitch 22 in Easons before Christmas as my interest in Hitchens was aroused by the Paxman interview. In the end I opted for Blanketmen and Afterlives and I was'nt disappointed by O'Rawe's expose.

Sorry Alfie but birds with different beaks come to...

2010-12-28T20:11:09.835Z
Sorry Alfie but birds with different beaks come to mind regarding your speciation example.
I see no one has taken up the role of criting Le Fanu then!!!

Stefan, "I'd be interested to see the ne...

2010-12-28T00:48:37.431Z
Stefan,

"I'd be interested to see the new species you talk of as observable phenomina in modern history."

Speciation by polyploidy (doubling of the number of chromosomes) has been observed in plants; for example, a new species of primrose, Primula kewensis, was generated in Kew Gardens, while a new species of goatsbeard, Tragopogon miscellus, is a natural polyploid hybrid of T. dubius and T. pratensis. In the animal kingdom, a new species of mosquito evolved in London's Underground.

Secondly, incipient speciation - where two subspecies seldom interbreed and begin to diverge genetically - has often been observed. For example, a species of maggot fly in North America and a mosquito species in Africa show incipient speciation.

Furthermore, ring species provide compelling evidence of how small cumulative changes can lead to the formation of new species. There are many examples of these, such as the ring species of Ensatina salamanders, which contains seven different subspecies. Two distinct subspecies coexist in southern California and interbreed only rarely, but a chain of interbreeding populations which encircles the Central Valley of California connects these two subspecies.

I think most creationists have accepted that new species have emerged, but they consider them "varieties within a created kind".

Alfie ‘ both Robert and Stefan strike me as intel...

2010-12-28T00:11:23.679Z
Alfie

‘ both Robert and Stefan strike me as intelligent men’

Very much so.

But irrational views have always been held by the most intelligent of people. Look at some leaders of the Einsatzgruppen. One in fact, Otto Rasch, had 2 PhDs and was known as ‘Doctor doctor’. Yet they and the pastors in their ranks merrily marched the Jews off to their deaths, including the mass murder of Babi Yar.

The problem for Rasch was the adherence to the book – Mein Kampf in his case. With the ID people who come armed with PhDs as well, it is the bible.

I recall the phrase beware the man of one book.

I think Robert by his own admission has ruled out reason as applying to the bible. He has decided to submit his rational faculties to it because he believes it is the word of god.

‘that's why I find their biblical creationism baffling.’

Me too. But they know the arguments made by reason and have opted to go for the creationist myths. It is their choice. But they need to accept that their opinion on this matter is just that, an opinion. It cannot be forced on anybody else.

‘science leaves a hell of a lot of room for God to set the physical laws of the universe in order to be conducive to the formation of atoms, molecules, stars, planets and indeed life. Why complicate matters with a theory that would require an international conspiracy of disinformation by scientists, a conspiracy that would transcend race, creed, culture and ideology? Maybe the discussion won't change any minds, but it has to be good for both sides in this debate
to subject their own views to scrutiny.’

That is true. But I doubt if this is the first time Robert or Stefan have been exposed to this type of critique. Stefan, I think allows for a greater degree of interpretation in relation to the bible whereas Robert insists on a more literal reading.

I think you can reason with them but not necessarily reason something into them. To accept the bible is the abandonment of reason.