Comments on The Pensive Quill: No Reason To Disown

Talking about leaders being stopped in their track...

2011-08-24T20:04:19.199+01:00

Talking about leaders being stopped in their tracks when they step on people's toes this is what happens to an ordinary man in a wheelchair who protests against the new discriminatory education system.

Disregard the idiotic interviewer asking a person who cannot move his own wheelchair questions like "Were you rolling towards the police?" and "Did you throw something?"

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-11993680

I know it happened last year but today it was explained that due to a 6 month limit on prosecutions nothing's going to happen to the police involved.

Apologies for wandering too far off the blog path but it illustrates the authorities' intolerance towards alternative voices.

Simon, haven't read it. 'It goes some ...

2011-08-24T07:15:22.343+01:00

Simon,

haven't read it.

'It goes some way to persuade that there is no good reason to lobby for a United Ireland if the gombeen class rule. No good reason at all.'

I would agree with that. I often think about what difference it would make to those in the North currently under London rule if they were tocome under Dublin rule. None worthwhile. There is nothing glorious about begging in Dublin. It could as easily be done in Belfast

Simon will check that book out. I've slowly b...

2011-08-23T20:50:16.987+01:00

Simon

will check that book out. I've slowly but surely come to that conclusion and also that things will not change.

Anthony & Larry, Have you read "Ship of ...

2011-08-23T20:14:32.082+01:00

Anthony & Larry, Have you read "Ship of Fools" by Fintan O'Toole? It is eye-opening. You might think nothing would surprise you and you might be right but it is a worthwhile read.

Fianna Fail and most of the other parties shafted the South big-time. "Ship of Fools" is limited in scope and includes many non-comparable statistics but is extremely interesting. It goes some way to persuade that there is no good reason to lobby for a United Ireland if the gombeen class rule. No good reason at all.

Just removing the border for the sake of it is pointless.

‘As for an individual I believe most important lea...

2011-08-23T13:59:04.030+01:00

‘As for an individual I believe most important leaders for change tend to die before their time because they step on too many people's toes.’

Or before they have time to join the cosy club.

NAIL ON PREVERBIAL HEAD!!

As for Americanisation..if 'twiggy' Harney had got her way we would be there already.

The health issues and others will be addressed eventually, FF in the news getting more pension hikes and benefits long after they've destroyed the place. I considered joining FF previously as an alternative to SF, boy was i confused!

Todays social issues are not being moulded into a 'national' issue. The 'English' are not at fault for this mess, there's no hiding place for these scoundrels. People will be slow to react though, decades of cozyness and inactivity kills political muscles.

No Reason To Disown Simon, Your bleak prognosis ...

2011-08-23T08:28:52.752+01:00

No Reason To Disown

Simon,

Your bleak prognosis is one I share. The situation might be even worse than you outlined with even more dire consequences for the weakest. I don’t think we are in the eye of the storm yet even though the political class tells us we are on the road to recovery. The only opposition I can see is here in the South and it is limited.

‘As for an individual I believe most important leaders for change tend to die before their time because they step on too many people's toes.’

Or before they have time to join the cosy club.

Anthony, "if social democracy goes where fo...

2011-08-21T18:11:56.926+01:00

Anthony,

"if social democracy goes where for the vulnerable?"

I believe, North and South, we are heading towards a USA style of capitalism with fees for education, health, limited social funds etc, etc. We'll witness a widening of the gap between rich and poor. As for the vulnerable? They're up a certain creek without a certain instrument.

I originally thought some intelligent, charismatic,contemporary leader of a high calibre is needed to articulate and give a face to the voice of socialism or Republicanism that would be relevant to today's Ireland.

I believe there are many important voices out there but people tend to follow an ideology that has a figurehead.

Perhaps you are right. Maybe if the range of voices of today got together they would be greater than the sum of their parts. This of course would be preferable as there wouldn't be any concentration of power.

As for an individual I believe most important leaders for change tend to die before there time because they step on too many people's toes. Malcolm X, Martin Luther King Jr. for example.

Simon ‘maybe these days even a form of social dem...

2011-08-21T15:24:47.893+01:00

Simon

‘maybe these days even a form of social democracy is a pipe-dream.’

And society cannot afford it to be a pipe dream. In the absence of socialism, if social democracy goes where for the vulnerable?

‘I think we need one or two local, dedicated, outstanding, strong leaders who show deference to their followers in a postive way.’

Where are they to come from? My experience has been that deference is shown to leaders and authority. Look where that took the republican struggle.

‘A Ché or a Bobby or a Pearse or a Connolly - that sort of charismatic
influence for change would be welcome.’

We pick from the ranks of those who died early. Are there no live examples?

‘A peaceful movement of revolution if that's possible would be preferable.’

I agree but always ask ‘how?’

‘the different strains of socialism confuse me.’

I believe Marx once said when socialism is propagated by the sects there is no socialism. I found it the greatest turn off. I felt the state must love the socialist sects because of the damage they do to socialism. Onlookers quickly move on to the next stage having watched the sects perform.

Simon don't like to say it, but it might be th...

2011-08-20T09:53:30.406+01:00

Simon
don't like to say it, but it might be the case that 'republicanism' and republican groups may be a turn off for people agitating on bread and butter and economic issues.

The bagage and track record might repel support rather than enhance it. People may feel their grievances are being hi-jacked for other purposes.

Genuine community initiatives aimed at community improvement could be the way forward. But political groups are tramping all over every minor issue jockeying for position. Sometimes the whole carry on is a turn off.
SF certainly developed the demise of the republican struggle. That's over and done. Personally I have zero time for them because whilst hi-jacking the SDLP and becoming unionist, they still wrap themselves in the green flag. Unbelievable.
SHAMELESS NORN IRON.

Maybe people need to stop flogging a dead horse and formulate something new, strip self servers like SF of their pantamime clothes.
In the meantime, just vote SDLP, they are still doing what they were set up to do, in an honest fashion.

Larry, I think you are right. But maybe these d...

2011-08-19T23:34:04.992+01:00

Larry,

I think you are right. But maybe these days even a form of social democracy is a pipe-dream.

Simon socialism will be unlikely in Ireland. The ...

2011-08-19T22:09:20.556+01:00

Simon

socialism will be unlikely in Ireland. The people have many traits and the love of money is to the fore of them.

A form of social democracy is likely as good as it will ever get.

Anthony- I think we need one or two local, dedica...

2011-08-19T20:12:02.002+01:00

Anthony-

I think we need one or two local, dedicated, outstanding, strong leaders who show deference to their followers in a postive way. I have found that even a large number of intelligent, well spoken figures of the calibre of Chomsky isn't enough to change the public mood in any overwhelmingly significant way.

A Ché or a Bobby or a Pearse or a Connolly - that sort of charismatic influence for change would be welcome.

I don't believe violence is the immediate answer as at least we can change our leaders through the ballot-box, many countries can't. A peaceful movement of revolution if that's possible would be preferable. A change of public mindset would be welcome.

As for "some kind of socialism" the reason why I said such a vague statement is that, although I have an interest in politics, the different strains of socialism confuse me.

Michaelhenry 'I am sure most of us have our p...

2011-08-19T15:17:33.440+01:00

Michaelhenry

'I am sure most of us have our preferred martyrs'

I prefer Marty to be one!!!

Simon,

‘I am a fervent believer in some sort of socialism.’

But that is too vague to provide much in the way of inspiration.

‘I would use Cuba, Venezuela, or Vietnam after 1975 as inspirations rather than China or the old USSR.’

So would I but there were serious limitations. I notice recently that Chomsky had a go at Chavez for compromising democracy.

‘But that comes with heavy caveats of no dictatorship, no police state, a strong human rights and environmental protection system in place and many other things.’

I suppose we have to find a way to protect socialism from socialists. Once they get their hands on a vanguard party it is all down the plughole.

‘How to get it? People who are rich want to stay that way and less well off people are often happy to keep the dream alive so there is plenty of opposition. A new revolution with people from every age, class, creed and colour would be useful here. But that is as much a pipe-dream as my preferred state.’

Much like the magical fly killer I guess, the problem as always is in catching the fly.

Anthony- I am a fervent believer in some sort of s...

2011-08-17T21:20:32.926+01:00

Anthony- I am a fervent believer in some sort of socialism. I would use Cuba, Venezuela, or Vietnam after 1975 as inspirations rather than China or the old USSR. But that comes with heavy caveats of no dictatorship, no police state, a strong human rights and environmental protection system in place and many other things. I know my examples breach some of these tenets but they are much better than most capitalist countries.

I would be a supporter of free health care Cuban style (I know Ché may have been an inspiration there), a progressive prison system, free education and other social services that support people when they are down and give them a hand-up.

Basically a state with social, environmental, economic and human rights which prizes shared responsibility and fraternity. Heavy tax on the very rich and much needed support for the poorest in our country and in other countries would be enforced.

How to get it? People who are rich want to stay that way and less well off people are often happy to keep the dream alive so there is plenty of opposition. A new revolution with people from every age, class, creed and colour would be useful here. But that is as much a pipe-dream as my preferred state.

Larry, "Still have a vision of a brit in ...

2011-08-17T13:36:15.122+01:00
Larry,

"Still have a vision of a brit in a tank turret machine-gunning the crowd.Must have been a parcel of lies."

That was how the massacre was portrayed in the film Michael Collins. I don't think it happened quite like that. Apparently, the armoured car was outside the stadium and only fired into the air above the spectators as they fled. It was still a massacre though - 14 civilians were killed and about 70 more were injured. The commanding officer that day was British and a member of the Auxiliaries, but I think most of the Crown forces in Croke Park that day were Irishmen.

Simon, ‘But my point was just to illustrate the f...

2011-08-17T11:22:37.878+01:00
Simon,

‘But my point was just to illustrate the futility of fighting for future
corruption, greed and largesse.’

Agreed. But should socialism be pursued and if so how?

still have a vision of a brit in a tank turret mac...

2011-08-17T11:03:54.749+01:00
still have a vision of a brit in a tank turret machine-gunning the crowd.
must have been a parcel of lies...can't believe anything anymore. I'm devestated.

Alfie i stand corrected, i only ever saw british a...

2011-08-17T11:01:29.260+01:00
Alfie
i stand corrected, i only ever saw british army in the movies...
damned propogandists, it was the Irish doing it themselves then!?

another hammer-blow...

Larry, My understanding is that regular RIC men f...

2011-08-17T10:51:27.170+01:00
Larry,

My understanding is that regular RIC men fired most of the shots in Croke Park on Bloody Sunday.

Fionnuala 'Yeah, and maybe it would be a good...

2011-08-17T09:54:00.023+01:00
Fionnuala

'Yeah, and maybe it would be a good idea if you read up about some of that life Larry.
Maybe it would be a good idea if you started with Croke Park, Bloody Sunday'.

Those despicable RIC dirty dawgs must have been in disguise at Croker eh? How devious to adorn British Army uniforma and hilack a british army armoured car.

Like the sun newspaper, never let the facts get in the way of a good story. Or in your case Fionnuala never get into the witness box!

Ryan

'Haha Larry, during my 2 year stay in Belfast I learned that there is life beyond the M1 roundabout for many Belfast people. There's Belfast, and then there's Majorca, Menorca, and Ibiza'.

An unfortunate and funny, but common trait.

AM- " my sentiment is with Connolly on this ...

2011-08-16T23:11:58.111+01:00
AM-

" my sentiment is with Connolly on this one "

I am sure most of us have our preferred martyrs- it is strange that both Pearse and Connolly who had such different personalitys were both given the brit death sentence at the same time- were both killed at the same wall at Kilmainham- were probably killed by the same men in those firing squads- and the same brit officer give the final head shot-both are also buried at Arbour hill- such is war-

"I think Ryan’s point was only for reasons of...

2011-08-16T23:10:21.262+01:00
"I think Ryan’s point was only for reasons of comparison not to suggest that the Holocaust was on a par with our own experience in the Tan War."

Yes, exactly. Let's just not forget the crimes perpetrated by the RIC-McMahon murders and others during the pogroms.
Haha Larry, during my 2 year stay in Belfast I learned that there is life beyond the M1 roundabout for many Belfast people. There's Belfast, and then there's Majorca, Menorca, and Ibiza.

Simon & Anthony, Agreed. Free-market capitali...

2011-08-16T23:07:53.597+01:00
Simon & Anthony,

Agreed. Free-market capitalism has failed. I believe in a left-wing alternative that is realistic but fair.

Nuala,

I argued in my article that the RIC failed to take the part of the Irish people at many key points in Irish history, such as the Famine, the Land War and the 1918 general election. But republicans fired the first shots in 1916 and 1919. You cannot really complain that RIC officers were "murdering" republicans given that the IRA were at war with the RIC at that time. Of course, the RIC and the British forces fought dirty, harassing, assaulting and often killing civilians, but the IRA's hands were not totally clean either. They often assassinated unarmed RIC officers, sometimes in front of their families.

If the British planned to exterminate the Irish, then they certainly did a piss-poor job of doing it.

Yeah, and maybe it would be a good idea if you rea...

2011-08-16T23:01:18.162+01:00
Yeah, and maybe it would be a good idea if you read up about some of that life Larry.
Maybe it would be a good idea if you started with Croke Park, Bloody Sunday.

Alfie Socialism has to be an ethically superior ...

2011-08-16T22:19:53.953+01:00
Alfie

Socialism has to be an ethically superior system to capitalism. But people have to be won to it rather than coerced into it and then barred from discussing it because the party decides it knows best.

Simon,

‘Why take life or go to prison if all you create is a bigger trough for the politicians?’

And what revolution has done anything else?