Comments on The Pensive Quill: Graffiti on the Wall

zero tolerance if it has been adopted, should mean...

2011-08-19T14:21:39.123+01:00

zero tolerance if it has been adopted, should mean exactly that, regardless.

Larry, 'Detect a slight alteration in stance ...

2011-08-19T12:06:11.950+01:00

Larry,

'Detect a slight alteration in stance there.'

There's been absolutely no alteration in my stance. I stated facts, and made it clear they were facts, then I stated my own personal opinion, making that clear too.

'I'm not convinced by the line from people suggesting cleaning up graffiti is somehow a lack of support for the prisoners.'

Paul O'Neill says he certainly supports all prisoners, their release and their human rights and I dont doubt him - not for one second. The work he does, his background and history speak for itself as far as I'm concerned.

But THE REALITY is that some graffiti is removed almost straightaway, and some has been allowed to linger a bit longer. In other words, the zero tolerance policy isnt rigidly applied and the truth of the matter is that the graffiti which could be considered pro PSF is the graffiti that's stayed up longest while the graffiti that could be perceived as pro dissident, is taken down straight away.

Some residents believe that it's been removed because they dont give a care one way or another about political prisoners while others are perceiving it as a ploy ensuring dissident bodies arent given any 'airtime' to highlight the campaigns they're behind.

The fact that the CEP didnt liaise with those writing the slogans before removing the paint is perhaps evidence of this...they're not even important enough to consult so we'll remove their messages and be damned - shut them up, dont give them any credence, undermine any clout or importance they might have in these communities and no-one will take them seriously or support them.

And of course I dont want graffiti on my house - I doubt there's many who would. I wish there was no need for graffiti, but there is.

Belfast bookworm 'there are many slogans not ...

2011-08-19T11:32:37.514+01:00

Belfast bookworm

'there are many slogans not too far from me - and by not too far I mean I dont have to go searching. I reiterate, I would have no problem whatsoever in having political graffit around me'.

Detect a slight alteration in stance there. Not doubting the history and relevance of graffiti where you grew up. I'm just aluding to my own perception that 'today' in this changed climate people are unlikely to want or tolerate their property being disfigured.

I'm seperating the moral issue of Marian from the reality that it's a different political landscape and temperature from the 1981 era. No-matter how much a minority wish to re-live that, it's not going to happen.

Having graffiti on your house is not only NOT a priority, most people in my opinion don't want it. Including yourself perhaps if you are honest, and Fionnuala too.

It's like supporting stiffing a Brit but having no notion of actually doing it.

I get the feeling this issue was an opportunity to get a political dig in at SF and others. That's power for the course. I'm not convinced by the line from people suggesting cleaning up graffiti is somehow a lack of support for the prisoners. Particularly as the strongest advocates don't have any on their houses. THATS THE REALITY.

Belfast Bookworm, 'and the CEP, to be consist...

2011-08-19T11:27:13.824+01:00

Belfast Bookworm,

'and the CEP, to be consistent in its zero tolerance policy, should clean up all graffiti. This hasn’t happened consistently in the past and I believe it's this kind of 'selective clean-up' that is angering many in our communities.'

CEP should explain selective clean ups. Because if they permit pro SF graffiti to remain while the graffiti of others is targeted then there is a serious hole in their case.

Graffiti has a use albeit not so much these days as people are no longer so dependent on it to get a message out. It is about where it is placed. And no one group should have any more rights than any other to use it. If someone were to put up on the walls ‘inform on republicans’ I imagine many of those who oppose the erasure of Free Marian Price would be rubbing it out.

Larry, Your comment; 'I think a lot of people...

2011-08-19T10:59:44.682+01:00

Larry,

Your comment; 'I think a lot of people have no problem with graffiti, on other peoples property' kind of implies that I have a 'So long as I'm all right Jack' attitude. Perhaps you think I live in some sort of ivory tower with no real concept of what goes on in the real world, but I can assure you nothing can be further from the truth.

Just last night I was looking through old family photos and remarked at how many were of us playing in the streets of perhaps one of the most deprived and dangerous enclaves of Belfast, with all sorts of political slogans scrawled across the walls. In fact, every single first communion photo of mine had Bobby Sands MP painted on walls in the background - every single one. Political graffiti was part of the patchwork of my life and I believe absolutely that this, in part, influenced my own thinking. Graffiti is a powerful tool of communication and it helps highlight issues relevant and current. I personally have no objection to it - no matter where it is.

I've since moved out of that area, and while there's no slogan on my wall and probably not likely to be, there are many slogans not too far from me - and by not too far I mean I dont have to go searching. I reiterate, I would have no problem whatsoever in having political graffit around me.

belfast bookworm 'Just for the record, I'...

2011-08-19T10:21:17.616+01:00

belfast bookworm

'Just for the record, I'd have no problem having 'Free Marian Price' across my gable'.

just for the record, is there one on it? Is there going to be?

I think a lot of people have no problem with graffiti, on other peoples property. No offence, just what i feel to be the reality.

Alphie, Doesn't almost every consultation hav...

2011-08-19T08:44:40.752+01:00

Alphie,

Doesn't almost every consultation have a predetermined outcome to some degree? Otherwise, why consult in the first place?

The Nieghbourhood Renewal strategy targetted specific issues/areas for regeneration and the questions in that consultation were desinged to get answers from residents on these specific issue.

I speak with authority on the matter when I say the consultation didnt make distinctions between political and non-political graffiti. While you only have my word for this, someone like Paul O'Neill could confirm it.

My own opinion on it is, as Anthony says, that it wasnt 'fine-tuned' - but there were holes in it, ie, when residents raised issues of graffiti in their district, there was no room to probe whether graffiti of a political nature was acceptable to them. If there was, we wouldnt be having this debate.

I'm also of the opinion that those groups or bodies who painted messages on the walls havent been consulted. Again, if they had we definitely wouldnt be having this debate. Those groups should have been consulted though, just like PSF and RNU and the IRSP were several years ago, and the CEP, to be consistent in its zero tolerance policy, should clean up all graffiti. This hasnt happened consistently in the past and I believe it's this kind of 'selective clean-up' that is angering many in our communities.

Just for the record, I'd have no problem having 'Free Marian Price' across my gable.

Alfie, sometimes these discussions produce intemp...

2011-08-18T21:31:47.397+01:00

Alfie,

sometimes these discussions produce intemperate language. It is just in the heat of the debate. I got called Conor Cruise O'Brien and Ruth Dudley Edwards one time by a very close friend because I did not share some view or other about republicanism. It doesn't last and we all move on. I think your father is quite entitled to have a view that graffiti is wrong without him being labelled pejoratively. But we all do it at some point or another depending on how passionately we feel about the topic.

As for Belfast Bookworm I did not read their comment in the way that Nuala did. I think BB made it clear that graffiti was a problem in the minds of most people. I don't feel they were saying the consultation process was carefully fine tuned to produce what happened on the NLR. In fact I think they made the point that there was a vacuum in the consultation process which should have been addressed by wider consultation with the groups that had emerged in the six year period since it was initiated. I could be wrong and BB might come back to clarify.

At the heel of the hunt the community has rights which republicanism should not violate in the promotion of its cause.

Nuala, "your da has too much of that old ...

2011-08-18T21:08:44.684+01:00
Nuala,

"your da has too much of that old RIC blood running through his veins."

Why? Because he is not afraid to stand up for his rights?

"If you had read the comments by 'Belfast Bookworm' you would know that the consultation which proceeded the clean up was skewed and designed to get a desired result."

While I did not read his comments closely, I was aware that Belfast Bookworm alleged that the consultation process had a predetermined outcome. The only evidence he provided for this claim is (a) that the consultation was carried out under the auspices of a British government body, and (b) that the survey through which residents were consulted did not probe the distinctions between political and non-political graffiti. This is a somewhat tenuous argument.

Firstly, it would be silly to suggest that the British government skewed a survey five or six years ago in order to legitimise graffiti removal today. Did they have a crystal ball back then? Secondly, I would imagine that most residents would object to any slogan - however noble the sentiment behind it - being daubed on their walls without their permission. I wonder how many people came out of their houses and asked Paul O'Neill not to remove the political graffiti on their own walls.

Nevertheless, I think it would probably be a good idea for residents committees and community organisations to hold open meetings in order to establish what the majority of the community wants. Even then, I think if the residents of a given house want to remove any sort of graffiti from their property, they should have the right to do this.

Alfie tell yer Da to be sure and have ball-bearing...

2011-08-18T19:50:15.881+01:00
Alfie
tell yer Da to be sure and have ball-bearing cartridges, them ordinary 12 gage are fukn useless.

Alfie, your da has too much of that old RIC blood ...

2011-08-18T19:34:53.447+01:00
Alfie,
your da has too much of that old RIC blood running through his veins.
If you had read the comments by 'Belfast Bookworm' you would know that the consultation which proceeded the clean up was skewed and designed to get a desired result.
The consultation and no doubt the clean up was at the behest of the British Government Neighbourhood Strategy.
Alfie, the area where I live is overrun with anti-social elements.
It has been sold off in part to private landlords.
People here live in constant fear and it is not from the people on the other side of the peace wall it is from their own.
Like all the area's we have our neighbourhood watch, our neighbourhood development, our regeneration schemes, action committees, resident committees, restorative justice and maybe now a graffiti committee.
Yet nothing ever gets done. Our area is a mess and it is nothing to do with litter or graffiti.
The Brits continue to throw money at these ventures and these endless schemes and committees and the people get thrown to the wolves.
Yes I would be proud to have 'Free Marian' on my wall, at least it would be pure and alive and coming from a social conscience and not tainted or muddied by British handouts and those who are only too glad to accept them.

Alfie 'My father has republican sympathies, b...

2011-08-18T19:18:38.642+01:00
Alfie

'My father has republican sympathies, but I know that if he saw anyone daubing any sort of graffiti on our house, he would get his shotgun!'

Love it.

Fionnuala

'Larry,
you can stop crawling now, I'm sure Cruncher O Neill is well impressed'.

not for the first time you can't handle differing views. It must be the dormant provo in ya lol

ive ordered you paint and a brush online, it will be with you tomorrow, do try not to paint over the windows.

Larry, you can stop crawling now, I'm sure Cr...

2011-08-18T18:50:59.217+01:00
Larry,
you can stop crawling now, I'm sure Cruncher O Neill is well impressed.

I think those who make a distinction between polit...

2011-08-18T18:32:10.594+01:00
I think those who make a distinction between political graffiti and mindless vandalism are missing the point. The house residents themselves in consultation with the rest of the community ought to be the ones who decide what - if anything - is painted on their gable walls. Nuala says she would be quite happy to accommodate 'Free Marian Price' graffiti on her gable wall, but I doubt she'd approve if someone scrawled 'Up Gerry Adams' or 'RIRA traitors' on it. She would have the right to remove such slogans from the wall of her house if she chose, just as the residents of the New Lodge area are entitled to have graffiti removed from their houses. If they want to keep the Provo murals/slogans and paint over the dissident material, then that is the residents' prerogative. However, there should be an open, uninhibited consultation process to establish what exactly the local community wants and to provide legitimate public spaces for expression of alternative political opinions.

My father has republican sympathies, but I know that if he saw anyone daubing any sort of graffiti on our house, he would get his shotgun!

I,ve just nipped home to grab some fishing gear ,h...

2011-08-18T16:07:23.754+01:00
I,ve just nipped home to grab some fishing gear ,havent time to bless myself lol. then straight back to a wee lake full of hungry trout, had to say I totally agree with Nuala here, P.O.Neill (any relation to yer man I wonder)says it was a community response to graffiti, can Paul tell us if he gets paid for removing graffiti? people like election census worker Joanne Mathers or anyone else who interfered with early prm graffiti didnt just get told of or have a few tomatoes chucked at them.I by the way have some of the earliest posters ever printed by the prm and if Paul is interested in high standards he would die laughing at these juvenile attempts at political resistance,indeed if Paul is genuine he should remove the free Sean Kelly slogan from the top of the flats and replace it with beautifully written Free Marian Price political prisioner of war.

Nuala, I don't accept that I have gone all o...

2011-08-18T15:10:25.749+01:00
Nuala,

I don't accept that I have gone all out to defend this. Although Carrie thinks you are right! I have not seen Paul O'Neill in years and have no dog in the fight. It matters not to me if he is proved right or wrong. I would be very disappointed if he did discriminate against Marian. I do believe he should be treated justly and I think that principle has been applied throughout the discussion. Whatever came in about it was carried, for or against.

But even if true that I went all out to defend it has it been any more 'all out' that your attack on it? Which is of course your right. I simply have not been persuaded by the merits of your argument, nor you by mine or the others who do not feel the issue is cut and dried. I can live with that. This is not a nodding head site. It does not mean you are wrong, just that I think the balance of probability does not lie in favour of your case.

What I believe I have sought to do is ensure that the issue is properly explored and all views aired.

'As for the annoymous writer or source, I believe when someone does not justify their opinion with their name, it totally detracts from everything they say.'

It certainly does not carry the weight of someone using their name. On this blog some people use blogger names and we allow it and exchange ideas with them. But the person was writing to me, not the blog, in the course of a conversation I was having with him. And I thought it legitimate to illustrate my view that there is a different take on it out there. I don't think the points made by Belfast Blogger, for example, are less relevant because they do not use their name.

'Nothing has been said here to change my first impressions of what Paul O Neill did or why he did it.'

Your call. You make the judgmenet on the information available to you and the context in which you believe this took place. Fair play. I see it differently.

Mackers, I think you have went all out to defend ...

2011-08-18T14:38:29.311+01:00
Mackers,
I think you have went all out to defend this, which is your entitlement of course.
As for the annoymous writer or source, I believe when someone does not justify their opinion with their name, it totally detracts from everything they say.
Nothing has been said here to change my first impressions of what Paul O Neill did or why he did it.

maybe a fund should be organised, a kitty, that pe...

2011-08-18T13:14:21.167+01:00
maybe a fund should be organised, a kitty, that people can get the money for paint or spray cans if they wish to put graffiti on their own property at no cost to themselves?

Even at that, the neighbours may be unimpressed.

Belfast Bookworm, I think you have added to our u...

2011-08-18T11:12:22.615+01:00
Belfast Bookworm,

I think you have added to our understanding of this issue greatly. The attitude toward graffiti you refer to would gel with my own experience as well as corresponding to my sentiment on the matter.

‘I also know for a fact that the main issues many residents across all neighbourhood renewal areas stated that graffiti is a major problem for them.’

While I don’t know this for a fact it seems so plausible. I can’t imagine why people would not raise it.

‘However, that consultation process is perhaps five or six years old now and times have well changed since then. Marian Price has been rearrested and Brendan Lillis is dying, for example. Other political organisations and lobby groups have emerged in that time - has the CEP liaised with them? Asked their opinions on the best way to deal with the messages they paint on the walls? I think not - and I think you should have.’

I think this is a point CEP and Paul O’Neill are obligated to answer.

‘graffiti doesnt look great, but unfortunately the groups and organisations that seem to be at the forefront of the Lillis and Price campaigns aren’t as financially well-off as others who can afford murals, billboards etc.’

Another well made observation which touches on some of the points Alec raised.

‘It seems too, that the CEP in their clean-ups are very selective in what they clean. The New Lodge was plastered in graffiti a few months ago about a prominent RNU member and it stayed there for God knows how long - it was also plastered in graffiti after an ex republican prisoner had the audacity to write a non-sanctioned book - but like the recent graffiti, this wasn’t removed in any clean up either.’

This goes to the heart of the matter and an explanation should be forthcoming. As Peadar suggested the discussion is hardly about whether graffiti is an eyesore – most seem to accept that it is – but the motivations behind this particular community clean up. And you raise very relevant points in that respect.

Larry, ‘Derry political activists had to stand up...

2011-08-18T11:12:15.752+01:00
Larry,

‘Derry political activists had to stand up to SF after they tried to
control free derry wall as their own.’

This is always the SF instinct

Tiarna,

In my view Nuala is right on SF being very much into and social control. It has a record of persistent bullying and intimidation to get its way. I do think however that issues like the cleanup can and need to be done regardless of what SF thinks.

Nuala,

‘never once in all those conversations and never once in all these years has anyone ever mentioned graffiti.’

Different experiences. Others have different memories. There has been enough said in comments on this topic by now to indicate that your experience and others differ. The comments by belfast Bookworm for example show that in their experience graffiti has been a community concern.

‘Personally, I would rather see graffiti on the wall relating to Marian and other relevant political issues, than this culture of, out of sight
out of mind that is now predominant.’

But it is not out sight nor out of mind. The very much 'in mind' campaigns around prisoners are in my view not down to slogans painted on walls, even where they have contributed, but toi the very real effort put in by supprt groups. Out of sight out of mind is the way SF might wish it to be, in fact has long sought it. But they have been resisted on it. I long resisted it but never once took to using graffiti to do so. There are other ways that highhlight the point without dictating to communities.

‘To me, there are issues which are much more important than a bit of
sprayed paint, and what is currently happening to her is one of them.’

That would not appear to be in dispute. The issue is one of whether I have a right to paint political slogans anywhere I choose without reference to anyone else. I don’t believe I do. If I believed that I would be holding the attitude I have long criticised SF for having: dictating to people what they will put up with because I say so.

‘In relation to the study and with all due respect, how do you know this clean up is what the people wanted?’

I don’t. But I imagine people always want to see their area improved and cleaned up.

'How do you know the research did not follow a format which would produce the desired outcome?'

I don’t. But it seems that a desired outcome would be the removal of graffiti that people tend not to want in their neighbourhood.

Nuala, ‘Paul O Neill could hardly dispute any of ...

2011-08-18T09:51:48.502+01:00
Nuala,

‘Paul O Neill could hardly dispute any of this.’

But he is. He is disputing that clean-up campaign was a ploy just to erase political slogans SF did not approve of. That is what is in dispute not whether he erased the slogans. He has stated that he erased the political slogans.

‘He claims he is the victim of lies and innuendo and rumour which is nonsense.’

He says the innuendo etc lies in the allegation that he was deliberately attempting to target the Marian slogan rather than it being removed as part of a clean-up campaign.

‘Yes, I am totally sceptical about the clean up story and the consultation process which proceeded it.’

That’s your call. Others, as you can see, do not buy into it so readily.

‘I also sceptical about his empathy for the prisoners but that is a separate issue.’

Again your own opinion, but one not shared by others.

‘Dictating what a community sees or what it cannot see is control and it is social control.’

But also telling a community what it must see and has no rights against what others determine it must see is no less a form of social control.

‘I believe 100% that is what underpinned this venture.’

Which is an opinion you are absolutely entitled to but from what I see here it is not a view that has 100% backing. Quite a few of the comments suggest that some people who are not sympathetic to SF are not buying into that interpretation.

‘Are you seriously suggesting that you can be at odds with the 'movement' and slide from one community post to another? Well if Paul O Neill can, then this is a first.’

In my view the late Skeet had some serious difficulties but was still in a job. Also in terms of a ‘first’ this is the first time somebody of that persuasion has specifically written an article for this blog to make a case. That never happens. You might conclude that he was told to do so but I doubt it.

In trying not to prejudge this issue and learn more about it I have been in contact with a number of people including one who has been attending Maghaberry protests for years, has in the past sprayed slogans himself in West Belfast because some of his close friends were in Maghaberry, and still supports the use of all means of support including graffiti. He knows Paul O’Neill well, and is at odds with his political perspective. He says this:

‘I can say without doubt that this incident was not a case of PSF supporters going around painting out slogans with the deliberate agenda of silencing political expression or to stem support for Marian or for the prisoners in general. I read his article that was posted on the Pensive Quill. What he is saying is a genuine and an honest reflection of his perspective. I find it truly depressing when I consider the issues associated with this incident. While I can understand why some will chose to criticise painting over the slogans, I find myself reluctant to do so in this instance as I have some insight into his attitude and thoughts towards the treatment of republican prisoners in Maghaberry and I know there was no deliberate political intent behind what occurred. He genuinely sees it as a legitimate community activity to improve the environment in the area. He was not ‘caught out’ as Fionnuala Perry has claimed in a comment on your blog. I can also say for a fact that he has been involved in helping ‘dissident’ ex-prisoners who have come out of Maghaberry in various ways ...Can anyone be identified that has ever been turned away on the basis of political affiliation? I think not.’

I think Nuala, we have to take all views into consideration. My view, your view, the view expressed above or another view can never be the definitive word on the matter. You have challenged Paul O’Neill’s view and your view in turn is challenged. It’s what makes discussion and debate possible rather than diktat and edict.

Fionnuala, You raised some valid points and have ...

2011-08-18T09:17:15.535+01:00
Fionnuala,

You raised some valid points and have given me a bit of food for thought.

The consultation was part of the british governments Neighbourhood Renewal Strategy for areas of deprivation.

The brits decided that investment would go into these communities under specific headings and as a result, the consultation did follow a format in order to reach a desired outcome; questions were asked under the headings of 'social', 'economic', 'physcial' and 'community' renewal - under the heading of 'physical renewal'people stated graffiti in their areas was undesirable. No probing was done regarding types of graffiti and at the time of this consultation I'd hazard a guess and say there wasnt the major political issues happening that there is today, so political graffiti wasnt to the forefront of peoples minds - they were most likely just thinking of the run-of-the-mill graffiti marring the walls of the districts.

Had people been specifically asked if political graffiti was acceptable to get a message across, then perhaps some, if not many, would have said it was.

Mackers, I have lived in this area all my life. O...

2011-08-17T23:12:12.141+01:00
Mackers,
I have lived in this area all my life. Over the years and very recently during the election campaign I asked a considerable amount of Clonard people about many of the social issues they believed a new party could address and never once in all those conversations and never once in all these years has anyone ever mentioned graffiti.
Maybe us people in Clonard are not too bothered if our area does not reflect our homes.
Personally, I would rather see graffiti on the wall relating to Marian and other relevant political issues, than this culture of, out of sight out of mind that is now predominant.
To answer Larry's question, I wouldn't give a stuff if they sprayed 'Free Marian' over the front of my house.
To me, there are issues which are much more important than a bit of sprayed paint, and what is currently happening to her is one of them.

In relation to the study and with all due respect, how do you know this clean up is what the people wanted?
How do you know the research did not follow a format which would produce the desired outcome?
I ask this because, a lot of people in that area had no idea such a consultation (whatever that is supposed to mean?) even took place.

Paul, I totally agree with everything you say reg...

2011-08-17T21:43:18.616+01:00
Paul,

I totally agree with everything you say regarding social deprivation and inequality - and I know for a fact that the consultation you spoke of was carried out in the New Lodge. I also know for a fact that the main issues many residents across all neighbourhood renewal areas stated that graffiti is a major problem for them. I've no doubt either that organisations liaised with political groups on the issue of graffiti.

However, that consultation process is perhaps five or six years old now and times have well changed since then. Marian Price has been rearrested and Brendan Lillis is dying, for example.

Other political organisations and lobby groups have emerged in that time - has the CEP liaised with them? Asked their opinions on the best way to deal with the messages they paint on the walls? I think not - and I think you should have.

Historically republicans have lobbied and informed communties on important issues and raised the profile of mattters - ensuring it stays in the public domain. Granted, graffiti doesnt look great, but unfortunately the groups and organisations that seem to be at the forefront of the Lillis and Price campaigns arent as financially well-off as others who can afford murals, billboards etc.

It seems too, that the CEP in their clean-ups are very selective in what they clean. The New Lodge was plastered in graffiti a few months ago about a prominent RNU member and it stayed there for God knows how long - it was also plastered in graffiti after an ex republican prisoner had the audacity to write a non-sanctioned book - but like the recent graffiti, this wasnt removed in any clean up either.

Alec, ‘Few republicans would have opposed the use...

2011-08-17T21:04:16.277+01:00
Alec,

‘Few republicans would have opposed the use of graffiti/slogans then unlike some of the opinions being expressed here.’

That’s true. I would have painted it. But I would not do it today. I didn’t oppose house takeovers or hijackings then and would today oppose them, albeit not for the self serving reasons of SF. I think the notion that communities had no rights against republicans has seriously weakened over the years and many people have reviewed their position.

‘Sinn Fein opposes any message that challenges the political presentation promoted by the party.’

It is in its DNA. If clean up exercises are only excuses to tackle political opposition (and we can never rule out that there is an element of that in many of them) then it is right that it be confronted. But the question still remains -does the community have the right not to be defaced by graffiti?

‘A more telling incident occurred on the Falls Road several weeks ago
when a well known local artist was prevented from painting a mural on
the International Wall by members of Sinn Fein. Certain prominent party members were involved in this act of discrimination against a former prisoner/artist leading to claims of attempted intimidation of the individual.’

This is the more telling incident. This is the type of thing that can really settle the issue. If prisoner support groups are told they should not write on walls but be more artistic and are subsequently denied mural space, then that is where the focus should be. It seems so much more clear cut than the NLR incident.

But overall there are so many ways to get the message out about republican prisoners. I think it should be done but not in a way that rides roughshod over the rights of communities.