Comments on The Pensive Quill: Tram Talk

Nuala, And yet she would have been a very good pa...

2011-12-31T14:25:09.165Z

Nuala,

And yet she would have been a very good parent. This is why I find it a bad idea for people to suggest that children should be taken away from parents with racist views.

Alfie,

It was the party line at the time – SWP. The party was after the Islamic support in England through Respect and was willing to make serious concessions to that element described by Tony Cliff as ‘clerical fascists.’ McCann remained decent throughout. And has been a reliable since when times have been difficult.

Anthony, In my mind the term racism serves partie...

2011-12-12T21:51:41.815Z

Anthony,

In my mind the term racism serves parties like the BNP and others who believe in “pure blood lines” as it agrees with their view that people are different based on colour and origin.

Prejudicial bigotry is an age-old social disease and throughout history, it has become a plague at times and under the right circumstances, it will again. I doubt if censoring words are people is a cure.

Excellent thread, sorry not had the time to read t...

2011-12-12T20:09:19.725Z

Excellent thread, sorry not had the time to read through all the comments but Bookworm and SMH, two classic examples of Ireland's own shameful (and ridiculous) racism.

So true SMH regarding Ireland's own long history of emigration and especially in this great land of the south, to which I'm sure you're as greatful as i am to be in. Nothing so hypocritical as a racist Irish person giving out about immigrants.

Frank, Pulling people up for their ideas is fine ...

2011-12-07T14:43:22.667Z

Frank,

Pulling people up for their ideas is fine but jailing them for it. That is something else.

Alfie,

I wonder if what happens in the travellers’ situation is racism per se as convention and consensus understand it to be. There is a lot of prejudice for sure and an abhorrence of traveller culture which might be even more vehemently expressed than racism.

How far are we justified in going with a view that a group has certain characteristics which make one form of behaviour more likely to emerge from within that group than in say another group? On the other hand if we fail to make generalisations how can we talk about culture?

I see the dangers in generalising. If I were to generalise on the basis of experience with individual travellers I would dismiss the bulk of them as bullies and thieves. But that could simply not be justified.
I am not persuaded that poverty explains crime. It seems to me that the vast bulk of crime is carried out by the rich. At the same time I feel that people like Frog Ward helped reinforce the image of travellers in a negative sense. When Padraig Nally shot him there was very little sympathy for Ward, even though he was unarmed, posed no threat to the life of Nally and was shot in the back.

Thanks for the insights - I've never really go...

2011-12-06T21:15:16.319Z

Thanks for the insights - I've never really got my head round the word racist either. It seems a redundant word given that we are all part of the one human race.

Anthony, Why the hell was McCann in favour of cen...

2011-12-06T21:12:01.853Z

Anthony,

Why the hell was McCann in favour of censoring the cartoons? Doesn't he believe in freedom of expression?

Tain Bo, ‘The term racism is a clever contradicti...

2011-12-06T20:07:53.210Z

Tain Bo,

‘The term racism is a clever contradiction as it actually agrees that based on the colour of skin and country of origin that the one human race is not one race but many.’

Something akin to my own views on the matter.

‘I would be a hypocrite if I said I have never told a British soldier where to go on the fact that he was a foreigner in my country.’

In parts of Ireland the term ‘foreigner’ has a very pejorative connotation. I recall during the blanket protest when English or Scottish screws were doing the rounds Kieran Nugent would call out ‘3 foreigners on the wing.’ And as far as we were concerned that is what they were.

Boyne Rover,

‘did she actually say anything that was racist all?’

People could not be British because they were black. That seemed racist to me.

Alfie,

I know quite a few Trots. In fact one of the best and most consistent activists over the past forty years is a Trotskyist – Eamonn McCann. I disagreed with him over the cartoons but it never dulled my admiration for him. Nor was he a wally about the matter. He just had a hardnosed analysis which I was fundamentally at odds with. Others took it personal and let that cloud their judgement. I suddenly became a ‘racist.’

While being deeply mistrustful of the NATO assault on Serbia it has always perplexed me as to why people on the Left downplayed Srebrenica. Herman’s analysis of Rwanda was totally unjustified. Why he sought to give any cover to one of the most fascistic regimes since WW2 baffled me. The West had only to do one thing there to seriously undermine the genocide – take out Radio Hate. Yet it mumbled something about not wanting to interfere in a country’s freedom to communicate. This is one reason I am so suspicious about the West when it talks about humanitarian intervention. When I see the French bombing Libya after what they did in Rwanda I roll my eyes in disbelief.

Mackers, My mother would not have applauded that o...

2011-12-06T19:34:18.639Z

Mackers,
My mother would not have applauded that outburst on the tram, if anything she would have been horrified.
That's what I always found so confusing, everything about her was in direct contradiction to everything I perceived racists to be, yet she was and she was totally unapologetic.

SMH They already do take children into custody. ...

2011-12-06T19:04:33.067Z

SMH

They already do take children into custody.

http://www.splcenter.org/blog/2009/01/15/nazi-named/

Nuala, ‘If they removed the children from racist ...

2011-12-06T09:38:16.278Z

Nuala,

‘If they removed the children from racist mothers I know where I would have ended up.’

Most interesting take. Never even thought of it that way.

I often wonder of prejudice always amounts to racism. I essentially see racism as a belief system which holds that one set of people is inferior because they are perceived to belong to a different race. Like the term fascism, I think racism is a term that we use much too liberally.

I also feel that we are racist when we hold to the view that a group of people should be denied some human rights which others should have – that goes some way towards creating a category of non-human. This is one of my problems with religious institutions. They have a long history of treating women as inferior beings which I think is not just sexist but racist. They seek to exclude them from that class of people who can have human rights.

There can certainly be double standards. Western w...

2011-12-05T15:47:01.094Z

There can certainly be double standards. Western women will not be permitted to dress as they choose in middle eastern countries but muslims insist on dressing as they please in Europe.

One of the most acceptable forms of racism in Irel...

2011-12-04T21:32:05.242Z

One of the most acceptable forms of racism in Ireland today is a hatred of travellers. Some of my friends and family who would pride themselves on their pluralist attitudes to foreign nationals are nevertheless appallingly prejudiced against the travelling community. They will complain about the high crime rate of travellers, their work in the black economy and their antediluvian notions about marriage and the role of women.

It may well be true that travellers are more likely to commit crimes than the members of settled community, but, even if this were the case, I am not sure it is because there is something wrong with travellers per se or their culture. Travellers tend to be much more at risk of poverty than members of the settled community and they also suffer a huge amount of discrimination. Taken together with the state's failure to make adequate resources available (even during the boom) for traveller education, it must be incredibly difficult for travellers to get jobs. Can any of us honestly say that we would not resort to crime or the black economy if faced with those circumstances? And should we really be singling out travellers for tax avoidance when the likes of Denis O'Brien can make his millions here via a controversially-awarded mobile phone licence before becoming a tax exile?

That said, I do have misgivings about some aspects of traveller culture. Indeed, I am not sure if it is a good idea for families with babies and young children to be living on the side of a road or in a halting site. Furthermore, I do find the old-fashioned and at times misogynistic attitudes of many travellers towards women disturbing. Yet, equally, there were many aspects of the hyper-conservative Irish culture of the past to which I would have objected, not to mention the extreme Muslim cultures today in the Middle East. In any case, I do believe that education and establishing contacts between communities can help overcome most of our prejudices.

Blackwatertown, I think the point being made by P...

2011-12-04T19:57:54.625Z

Blackwatertown,

I think the point being made by Padraig Reidy was on the fragmented and uncoordinated way in which such a state could emerge.

Belfast Bookworm,

It is the old problem of making the distinction between abuse and opinions. I think she was being abusive and agreed with Boyne Rover and Alfie that she could have been put off the tram at the first available stop. I believe people have the right to smoke but not to blow it in my face. I just don’t believe that jailing her or charging her under the ‘racial aggravation’ clause was justified. Had she have been shouting about football rather than colour there is no way she would have been jailed. I took the view that she was more a public nuisance than anything else.

SMH,

‘I hate seeing kids being infected with poisonous lies...’

As do most of us I guess. When I hear religious people tell kids they will go to hell iof they reject god, I find that poisonous. But I would never argue for a cleric to be jailed for it or not to be able to express such an opinion.

Nor do I relish the thought of her or anyone else sitting in a prison cell. Been in one too long to relish others there. I know that is silly sentiment and that often jail is the least worst option but I always have a natural sympathy for people who fall into the hands of screws. And it probably warps my judgement.

Mick, I was very uneasy myself with SMH’s call fo...

2011-12-04T19:41:51.911Z

Mick,

I was very uneasy myself with SMH’s call for children of racist parents to be taken from them and put in care. It seems such a draconian move and without justification. It is a view that was aired long before SMH expressed it but it means that people who have different views from us are to be punished by having their children taken from them. It is nightmarish. I am relieved SMH rowed back from it.

SMH,

‘words are violent and wound non whites as sharply as a knife being stuck in u.’

But everybody who wants to censor shouts they are wounded and offended by whatever opinion it is they have taken umbrage with.

Larry,

When they are not using terms like ‘nigger’ which is an attempt to dehumanise a person and instead expressing opinions no matter how vile, I feel we have to let it contend. It is trying to separate ideas, no matter how primitive, out from abuse. Not always an easy task. If people come on this blog and start demanding their right to call people ‘niggers’ they won’t be here.

Felt a bit sorry for the racist woman on the tram....

2011-12-04T19:32:07.302Z

Felt a bit sorry for the racist woman on the tram. I have no sympathy for her views but she looked like she was on medication and frankly not all there. But, charging her maybe isn’t a bad message to send, though it’s harsh. With the economy unravelling there will be more of this (and other kinds) of lazy blame-mongering. Maybe people will think twice if they know they will be pulled up for it?

Anthony, Mick exactly ,spot on.

2011-12-04T17:03:30.501Z

Anthony, Mick exactly ,spot on.

Belfast Bookworm and Marty, Thanks. So much for m...

2011-12-04T16:46:43.454Z

Belfast Bookworm and Marty,

Thanks. So much for my knowledge of Luke Kelly!

Mick,

‘Whether commentators like it or not her bitterness reflect those of
millions of ordinary British people (and Irish people) who were not asked
whether they wanted to share their countries with people whom they do not
understand, whose history they do not share and who they instinctively
believe will undercut wage rates, etc.’

As someone strongly opposed to racism, you have raised issues here that cannot be wished away in the name of PC. They have to be addressed.

‘There was a conscious decision by NL Government to allow a flood of new
immigrants into the UK as they wished to drive wages down for their
business pals.’

A point frequently overlooked in the discussion. It ends up with the foreign national workers being blamed directly and blurs the discussion. It also makes it look like workers are racist and bosses are not. Yet the bosses racially select the foreign workers to maximise their own profit.

SMH never hear the term "BLACK IRISH" ho...

2011-12-04T10:56:13.632Z

SMH never hear the term "BLACK IRISH" hon.Australia is calling out for skilled workers, like New Zealand there is a dire need for construction workers.unlike Ireland there is little or no work,the kids are leaving in their droves AGAIN Precisely because of that fact,they will no doubt help rebuild these countries and no doubt be told to fuck of when the job is done just like their fathers before them.in the meantime we have large numbers of immigrants both legal and illegal heading here,now my question is what are they going to do and does this not leave these people wide open to be exploited by the criminal elements ,such as prostitution etc the dire economic situation we face here should be a call to those who would wish to come here that we need to get our own house in order before we can put out the "Céad mile fáilte "mat out again.. Anthony if that lass on the tram had shouted "Liverpool for the leauge" the other passengers would had died laughing.....

Boyne Rover, keep the discussion real. You know f...

2011-12-04T09:31:13.180Z

Boyne Rover,

keep the discussion real. You know fine well even she, as drunk or deluded as she might have been, would not have shouted 'Liverpool for the League.'!!

RE: MickHall BEST COMMENT input here so far imo ...

2011-12-04T01:15:58.911Z

RE: MickHall

BEST COMMENT input here so far imo
'Historically, racist filth which pollutes a society has almost always been generated top down.'

RE: 'Get real Mary, a great many of the officials who would decide on which child is taken into care are racist themselves.'
Point taken. What you wrote is worthy pondering My proposed solution just a temporary satisfaction kneejerk of revenge response re removing the child. I hate seeing kids being infected with poisonous lies... I don't know the answer is the truth & feel enormous anger at racism.Re the query would I act as righteous or such re individuals who are addicts etc. yeah i would but am seasoned in the work. Years of working with people living with addiction/mental health issues & blood borne viruses. Me and a handful of others decades ago were the lst to put our faces/names to living with a specific blood borne virus (Hep C) Experiencing first hand the hammering of
judgements/hate/revulsion. I am one of the fortunate who lived to clear the virus & am over 23 years clean from IV usage (insert round of applause ahaha) NB Society never forgives if privy to your history. Just the same for people who have done time. Never forgives Being old affords great liberty as shuffling off the mortal coil is looming fast. I happily put my face name to all I believe - shaken off misplaced shame. Hope i would fight for any person's rights to dignity and freedom even for that poxy Emma who needs help as she is twisted with delusions but I ain't no Mother Theresa. I do relish the thought of her sitting in a prison cell.

@Marty it's abit like that in Australia. Everywhere I look it is spot the Aussie - Irish nurses, Irish managers, Irish labourers - an influx like nothing else. Like I said we are all immigrants/refugees one way or another. This land i am on belongs to Aboriginal Australians - not any of us. NB Ireland belongs to the Irish but we owe the many non-Irish the right to refuge and a better life because nations all around the world took/take our people in did they not. We Irish have white privilege on us - rest assured if were black or light brown rabid hate/blame would be directed fullon at us.

Larry, I knew someday, somewhere, somehow we woul...

2011-12-03T22:51:18.266Z

Larry,
I knew someday, somewhere, somehow we would eventually find something to agree on. I just wonder how long it will last?

SMH/Mackers,
If they removed the children from racist mothers I know where I would have ended up.
My mother actually believed they employed black actors, doctors etc because they got them half price.

Seriously though, I agree with SMH, I find racism in any shape or form vile.
I also have problems with the idea that migrant workers are causing detriment to unions, other workers or the economy but I'm sure the BNP has plenty of manufactured stats and figures to bear out that one.

The term racism is a clever contradiction as it ac...

2011-12-03T22:33:40.871Z

The term racism is a clever contradiction as it actually agrees that based on the colour of skin and country of origin that the one human race is not one race but many. Perhaps racism was more apt when the Neanderthals walked the earth with our Ancestors.

The woman on the train is xenophobic and a nuisance and unfortunately a commoner unlike when the bold wee Prince Harry displayed his Lily-white English views all he got was an ear bashing from his mother. Perhaps the royal family like parliament should become a bit more colourful and culturally diverse.

You have to love the media and the Government they certainly know how to divide the ordinary people one minor outburst from a woman becomes a worldwide topic.
I will offer an apology in advance but I could not stop laughing at the video, went on to view other videos for and against, and enjoyed it.

I laughed and thought to myself that is it you English bastards get wired into each other does that make me a bigot? Yes. I would be a hypocrite if I said I have never told a British soldier where to go on the fact that he was a foreigner in my country.

I yearned for the good old days when a British army patrol would force you against a wall and exchange a few polite pleasantries at the point of an SLR. Then that was not bigotry as those poor heavily armed soldiers where just defending the British Empire.

The English women is ranting at the wrong people for some reason I could hear Rule Britannia and thought it is a shame we are part of that Union. Her raving was enough to make Admiral Nelsons other eye pop out, as this is definitely not her ideal Lily-white England or his.

I do not suppose she would understand that it is her own country’s problem for invading butchering and enforcing British rule and teaching us all proper manners at gunpoint. It is nice to see that British stiff upper lip replaced with a jaw dropping disbelief that their own cruel history has come back to bite them in the lily white arse.

If they take away her right to speak, regardless if we agree or not then, we should allow the thought police to ban any form of expression in my opinion this is more dangerous to society than a somewhat at times incoherent outburst from an obviously emotionally disturbed women.

If you look at the video, the woman is clearly spewing out bile but is not posturing in a physically confrontational manner. There is a man behind her who lets poor judgment dictate his approach, which is clearly physical fortunately, he is calmed down by wiser who prevented an ugly rant from possibly becoming an even more disturbing issue.

We have enough buck eegits in Northern Ireland who see foreigners as a problem yet oddly enough do not mind the corporate foreigners whose greed along with the bankers and government caused the financial crisis.

Paisley and his cronies abused all sorts of people...

2011-12-03T22:07:52.075Z

Paisley and his cronies abused all sorts of people for years ,yet no action was taken,and now Paisley is feted like a man of respect,he ranted and raved and his evil twisted words may have been the fuse that ignited 30 plus years of trouble here, countless injured ,and thousands of deaths.its amazing that a wee girl half pissed or of her head on something can arouse such fury and calls for retribution yet arch bigots get promoted to the house of lords...maybe that girl should get herself a dog collar...

I have posted earlier what should have happened to...

2011-12-03T21:04:28.766Z

I have posted earlier what should have happened to the poor woman who only wanted to voice her opinion.
I don’t know what all the hullabaloo is about what insults did she actually hurl.
Lets call a spade a spade did she actually say anything that was racist all her words were slurred she sounded like she had her head in a barrel. Basically it was all jibber jabber totally incoherent to me all I could complain about was the high pitched scream which she passed around.
Do we maybe take this PC thingy too much to heart people feel at times that they must explain themselves to the general public just to get something of their chests. Imagine for a moment she started shouting Liverpool for the League what then might have happened she would have had the child taken from her and she would not get the child back until Liverpool won the League in other words she would never have seen her child again, how fare is that
Now that it’s Saturday night I bet most of us have the same thoughts “what the fuck was that woman in the video on it sure gives you a kick” and all thoughts of racism will go out the window

Belfast Bookworm, If someone - male or female - w...

2011-12-03T20:43:43.813Z

Belfast Bookworm,

If someone - male or female - was behaving in a physically agressive or threatening manner towards other people on that tram, then he/she could have been arrested for a public order offence. Emma West was insulting, but she was not physically agressive. She remained seated at all times. If she was getting in people's faces and invading their personal spaces, then she ought to have been arrested. That said, I don't see any reason why a conductor - if present - could not have demanded that she get off at the next stop, just as a restaurant manager would have been entitled to make her leave his restaurant if she had been creating a similar disturbance there.