Comments on The Pensive Quill: The Mendacity of Martin McGuinness

Larry- The pope was in one of the most cut-throa...

2011-10-01T13:49:59.307+01:00

Larry-

The pope was in one of the most cut-throat gangs that ever fired a shot into a civilian- the hitler youth-
most of his last year during world war 2 was spent shooting at brit and yank planes that were dropping bombs on his city- suppose the pope can feel a little affinity with those libyans who were shooting up at brit and yank planes recently-

What section of the nazis was the pope in? Is Dana...

2011-10-01T11:25:24.685+01:00

What section of the nazis was the pope in? Is Dana being pressed to explain that?

Marty, I guess it depends on the level of respons...

2011-09-28T13:12:54.333+01:00

Marty,

I guess it depends on the level of responsibility and involvement. Certainly Eichmann was one. After WW2 the SS was declared a criminal organisation but not all in it were war criminals.

So as I asked before about morals and war crimes,...

2011-09-28T12:10:32.748+01:00

So as I asked before about morals and war crimes,would the guy who scheduled the trains for Auschwitz and the other death camps be considered a war criminal? he certainly must have been a man of dubious morals.

Larry, I thinmk there was a string case made by h...

2011-09-28T11:45:22.654+01:00

Larry,

I thinmk there was a string case made by historians that Harris should have been charged with war crimes.

was bomber Harris a hero? debating morals wasn'...

2011-09-28T11:39:59.847+01:00

was bomber Harris a hero? debating morals wasn't something that ever held the brits or yanks back. Their enemy doing it only gives them the edge.

Ruairi Joseph, I know what your point is. It anno...

2011-09-28T08:05:39.147+01:00

Ruairi Joseph,

I know what your point is. It annoys many of us. There is so much of double standards at play. But even in terms of hypocrisy the ‘just' are all too willing to join the 'unjust' and share their double standards. Bloody Sunday was a war crime. I am convinced of that. But if that was a war crime how could Whitecross not be? And it is pointless for us to point the finger at McGuinness, who as far as I know was very much opposed to that type of action, when some of us approved of it when it happened. For many republicans opposed to McGuinness there is no moral high ground to be seized here, merely moral reflection.

I think this sort of question should trouble all republicans who feel they are authentic in their insistence that the British State violated the rights of Irish people and that such violation plays a part in their resort to arms.

In yesterday's Irish Times somebody commenting on a Fintan O'Toole piece claimed that the IRA never committed a war crime. That seemed to me to be a wholly unsustainable position.

'war is organised murder, nothing more, nothing less'.

I have read that or something similar prior to this but it is a good point to raise. Yet if you accept that it leads to a pacifist position. I would love to see war forbidden but it is like asking for politics to experience a similar fate.

The thing about this type of discussion is that it does not tie us down to a view on Martin McGuinness but allows for a wider appraisal of the issues at play in phenomena of this sort. I doubt if there are easy answers but there has to be hard questions if it is to be explored.

Rory 'I think McGuinness'candidacy might ...

2011-09-28T04:23:30.551+01:00

Rory

'I think McGuinness'candidacy might lead to some very uselful debate and soul serching in Ireland, especially as he would be president in 2016'.

I think that this is a fantastic point you have made, and is why I for one, would probably if I could, vote for this man McGuinness. Sets the cat amongst pigeons.

John Mooney Sunday... 'Does anyone want to el...

2011-09-28T04:03:55.900+01:00

John Mooney Sunday...

'Does anyone want to elect someone whom they know to be a liar'

Martin McGuinness is a politician, he lies, that's his job. The good people who will cast their vote, do not realise this or do not care.

AM It's the hypocrisy in all of this war crim...

2011-09-28T03:51:10.982+01:00

AM

It's the hypocrisy in all of this war crime shite that is my point. Of course war criminals should not be allowed to go free, but more times than not, they do. FACT. A slap on the back for a job well done, and if they have really excelled in the art of bringing hell to their fellow beings, they're honoured in granite or bronze.

Morality in war? War crimes?

Has always stuck with me what one old man said before his death, a survivor from the Somme, the old solider looking back said...

'war is organised murder, nothing more, nothing less'.

Obviously in his eyes entire war is a crime, and if you agree, then the Geneva Convention amounts to a load of bullocks.

Id love to see wee Marty elected. Dammit he was cr...

2011-09-28T01:12:26.305+01:00

Id love to see wee Marty elected. Dammit he was crying when Geroid endorsed him on behalf of the Irish republican party.
I like Marty, my family like Marty some 120 000 of us in the wee North like Marty. And the Free State establishment hate him. So there you are. Marty in the Park a nightmare for D4 and there is no one else who strikes the same fear. At this juncture i am reminded of 1981 and I too shed a tear like Marty. Vote Marty , Rock the Free State.

In short; Marty and Gerry are either liars.... Or...

2011-09-27T19:07:36.072+01:00

In short; Marty and Gerry are either liars....

Or they are a spineless twosome who were willing to encourage a generation of Republicans to do what they weren't willing to do themselves.

Saddened, it is a wider issue of discussion than ...

2011-09-27T18:51:09.658+01:00

Saddened,

it is a wider issue of discussion than Fintan O'Toole. There is now a war crimes discourse developing, justfifed or not. Significantly, it is not restricted to McGuinness. It is now being used to describe British state activities. Nothing will come of it in terms of trials and convictions at a war crimes tribunal/court.

But perhaps of longer lasting significance it might give rise to a wider discussion about the relationship between morality and war.

Its a long time since I read as much nonsense in o...

2011-09-27T18:41:36.240+01:00

Its a long time since I read as much nonsense in one sitting,this war crime agenda is in Fintans large head it wont get anywhere and to think otherwise is ridiculous

Rory, There are similarities and dissimilarities ...

2011-09-27T17:09:38.416+01:00

Rory,

There are similarities and dissimilarities between McGuinness and Mandela. More capital could have been spun out of it by SF had McGuinness allowed somebody other than himself to be drawing the comparisons. That was a gaffe reinforced by his claim to be the best peacemaker of all time, anywhere. I think there was a sense of a rampant ego which allowed ridicule to be drawn down by the bucketful.

Mandela being out of the loop for so long would free him up from command and control responsibility. Although I wonder what it might have been like had he avoided jail.

‘Victors don't tend to be charged with war crimes anywhere.’

But that does not make it any more right. If anything it makes it more wrong: might is right and the authority of the victor to try the vanquished undermined. How Bomber Harris escaped war crime prosecutions after WW2 underscores your point.

‘I think McGuinness' candidacy might lead to some very useful debate and soul searching in Ireland, especially as he would be president in 2016.’

I think it would be divisive. SF is interested in nothing but power. All that waffle about standing with the citizens against the government – he never did it up North. That rhetoric is a ploy for the vote.

‘The media that embraced the peace process and see no problem with McGuinness being deputy first minister in the North are applying double standards if they have a problem with him holding office down here based on what he did before that peace process.’

There are a lot of things down here do not want from up North – a government without opposition being one of them. The North is treated as a case of special pleading not a template for the norm.

‘I would like to see what Sinn Fein have done since the GFA being probed.’
Agreed.

Anthony, There are two difference with Mandela. F...

2011-09-27T16:51:17.065+01:00

Anthony,

There are two difference with Mandela. Firstly, Mandela served a very long sentance in difficult circumstances. He was obviously out of the loop for most of the ANCs campaign, if he was responisble in any way for atrocities, no one could say he hadn't served his time.

Secondly, Mandela, was elected president after the ANC had won their struggle hands down. Victors don't tend to be charged with war crimes anywhere.

Republicans in the North are still being jailed over things that happened before the peace process if they fail to toe the British Government line.

I think McGuinness'candidacy might lead to some very uselful debate and soul serching in Ireland, especially as he would be president in 2016. By then Sinn Fein have said Ireland will be united, however the issue of IRA membership itself is a dead end.

The media that embraced the peace process and see no problem with McGuinness being deputy first minister in the North are applying double standards if they have a problem with him holding office down here based on what he did before that peace process. People aren't stupid and can see that, I commented in another article on this blog that this issue will not stop people with republican sympathys from voting for him. It will sway very few people and could easily backfire.

I would like to see what Sinn Fein have done since the GFA being probed.

I don't subcribe to the idea that the president should be a bland figurehead, or some retired politican already on a massive pension. The last campaign that engaged me was that of Mary Robinson in 1990. She challenged people and caused real debate. McGuinness is the only candidate in this campaign who is likely do do that.

Rory

Ruairi Joseph, he should be but he won't be d...

2011-09-27T15:05:57.261+01:00

Ruairi Joseph,

he should be but he won't be dwarfed by them. Just as he is not being dwarfed by them now. One not unrelated issue is that he struck an agreement on policing which allows the British police to investigate IRA activity as crime.

Ruairi Joseph, ‘If McGuinness can be arrested for ...

2011-09-27T15:02:07.026+01:00

Ruairi Joseph,
‘If McGuinness can be arrested for war crimes then they would need a bloody bigger 'The Hague'.’

Not the issue. Doubt if anybody here would disagree. The focus is on whether a lot of bother will track him if he becomes president. I think it likely. They will not take him to The Hague nor will they charge him with war crimes. I think the initial article which kicked this media debate off was one in which it was said in principle he is liable to be charged with war crimes. Were I writing it I would have said in principle he is open to the charge rather than that he is liable to be charged. Why in principle?

Because of a command and control responsibility. It does not mean he ordered anything or even agreed, but a failure to act to prevent or words to that effect.
There is probably not a war where war crimes did not take place.

Should the war criminals then go free? What use a term like war crime? Is it right that Kissinger walk the streets? And if Kissinger is a war criminal then what of others who opposed Kissinger but who behaved in some cases like him? The Monteneros of Argentina hardly emerged squeaky clean.

The argument here is not whether McGuinness is fit for the hangman. Nobody on this site is calling for that. And he has been condemned of no war crime. I think the wider brush is being used and it is to address issues of morality in war. Is there any such thing? Does anything go? Is there any use in employing the term war crime?

Actually on further consideration, won’t McGuinnes...

2011-09-27T14:45:16.536+01:00

Actually on further consideration, won’t McGuinness be dwarfed by the bigger bastards (thinking Presidents PMs and Queens) whom he will be tasked with welcoming to our shores? Let’s keep it in context, this is only the presidency of Ireland, it would be more of a concern if it was a head teacher’s position that we required filling.

AM If McGuinness can be arrested for war crimes t...

2011-09-27T14:16:50.822+01:00

AM

If McGuinness can be arrested for war crimes then they would need a bloody bigger 'The Hague', that's if they decided to start convicting elected Westerners, they simply do not convict their own.

If the IRA had of won the war with a big dirty war crime like that carried out by the likes of the US, GB or Israel, then there'd be no issue. Actually hard to think of a war where war crimes didn't occur.

Also seems like Martin is fit for the hang man, on what war crime specifically is it that we have collectively condemned him of.

Rory

Surely Mandela as a convicted terrorist is aptly suited as a comparison to Marty... a convicted terrorist, I mean consider the IRA-ANC sleep over for one.

no sympathy for the lying bastard hope he gets hou...

2011-09-27T12:56:37.975+01:00

no sympathy for the lying bastard hope he gets hounded to hell and back

The Irish president gets paid almost as much as Ob...

2011-09-27T12:07:39.212+01:00

The Irish president gets paid almost as much as Obama ! MC G risks being sued if he admits to being a provo.Best to let sleeping dogs lie. Gusty Spence R I P .

This has me bemused. I know a few people who were...

2011-09-27T10:41:35.839+01:00

This has me bemused.

I know a few people who were/are in the IRA. The reason I know is that they were convicted of IRA membership. They tend not to talk about it except for what is already in the public domain and I tend not to ask.

My undersatanding is that as a secret, illegal orgainsation, the IRA tells it's members to keep their membership secret and if interrogated about it, deny it. Surely IRA members would be liable to internal sanction, prosecution and to possibly to compromise their comrades if they admitted membership.

Everyone knows McGuinness was in the IRA. I don't expect him to be honest about it.

Comparisons with Dick Cheany are ridiculous as are comparisons with Nelson Mandela.

The debate should really be about policys going forward.

Rory

JMST, 'The real issue is not his IRA past, bu...

2011-09-27T09:14:06.203+01:00

JMST,

'The real issue is not his IRA past, but his denial of it.'

To a point. I noticed that John Waters touched on this very strongly at the weekend.

The qualification would be it seems one of what that past involved. If for example he was suddenly to come out and say he ordered Enniskillen or Whitecross I think that particular past would become the issue. If he came out and said he ordered Narrow Water, it most likely would not be an issue. Aprt from the fact that he would be jailed!

Ruairi Joseph, The point made by O’Toole for exam...

2011-09-27T09:08:47.974+01:00

Ruairi Joseph,

The point made by O’Toole for example is that he is in principle liable to arrest on the grounds that the IRA’s armed struggle fell into a certain category under the Geneva Convention. In international law there are provisions that assign culpability on the grounds of command and control rather than direct involvement or even intent. It is noteworthy however that the conflict is now being described as a war by people who did not previously describe it as such (see Mail on Sunday). That seems to be an attempt to better fit the war criminal label.

At the time of Mandela assuming the presidency he had a much greater degree of goodwill within the international community than McGuinness has. And of course the ANC struggle will always be played more kindly than the IRA’s because of the mass support it had and the fact that the South African regime was treated as a pariah by many states. I don’t recall Mandela facing the type of grilling McGuinness has. Would it last into his presidency assuming he won? I imagine it would. And that is where the Hague element could well feature in discourse.

But even if we set aside the international dimension and stick closer to home, because of the deal SF signed up the party failed to safeguard republicans from PSNI action for activities prior to the GFA. Which means in principle McGuinness is open to prosecution if the state dig up something. I think it unlikely but the brouhaha that would be swirling around a president would not be good.

As for McGuinness telling the truth about his involvement, he would be unwise to. But he could simply state ‘no comment’. That would not only cut the ridicule off at the pass (the type that Adams gets when he denies IRA membership) it would also ensure that their better public performers like Pearse Doherty are not hamstrung by saying they have to believe patent nonsense at a time when he is building up a reputation as a trustworthy operator.
‘The only shame is that McGuinness isn't still involved, not his involvement.’
What would that have changed? Now, for the sake of exploration, if he or somebody else was involved in activities that are widely regarded as war crimes is that a cause of shame or does his only shameful act lie in bringing the war to a conclusion?
Of wider consideration in this discussion is the question of whether non state actors or liberation groups can commit war crimes or crimes against humanity or is it only states? Should water boarding for example be a war crime if carried out by a state but not if carried out by an armed body opposed to that state? And that leads onto a broader range of questions about rights.