Comments on The Pensive Quill: "We got nothing"

WESTIE, There was obviously some sort of point bei...

2009-11-14T11:23:09.206Z

WESTIE,
There was obviously some sort of point being made there among those vast clairvoyant presumptions

Hello Westie, Sean Mor has referred to both the ...

2009-11-14T07:14:24.098Z

Hello Westie,

Sean Mor has referred to both the strikers and the families.

The families of people who died during any conflict or questionable circumstance are not in a position, even were they so inclined to veto discussion, of the circumstances which led to the deaths. It would neither be right or desirable that they should be placed in such a situation and then made vulnerable to manipulation of others who want any public discussion stopped. This applies to any circumstance in the world. But closer to home were the families of the three North Armagh people killed in 1992 for informing to demand an end to any discussion of the events that led to their death and insisted on their own version being the standard one, few would find them justified or respect their wishes. Yet by not respecting their wishes and claiming that there are other circumstances where the wishes of some families should trump public discussion, only leaves us open to playing the hierarchy of victims card.

Pat Sheehan, were he to publish his account of the 1981 hunger strike, would be quite justified in doing so. Were he to come up with evidence that showed Richard O'Rawe's account to be wrong Pat's contribution would be no less valid and would remain a welcome contribution.

'People believe what they want to believe, mainly motivated by who they most dislike or disagree with rather than anything objective.'

If that is why you choose to believe then there is little point in trying to persuade you of the merits of an alternative argument whatever it may be in relation to anything. Which is unfortunate because reason is a great human value whereas prejudice and bias (which we all harbour to varying degrees) are much less so.

Best

Anthony

Anthony I believe that Sean Mór referred to the f...

2009-11-14T01:12:30.510Z

Anthony

I believe that Sean Mór referred to the families of the hunger strikers in expressing his concerns about the ongoing and never to be resolved or proven versions of what excatly went on almost 30 years ago, and these people should never be forgotten in this 'debate'.

It appears to me that many contributors on this issue were actually in the Blocks in 1981, for example ISKRA talks about unravelling the untruths about the 1981 stailc that professional politicians have profitted from both fiscally and in terms of electoral gain,

That is quite a statement and I just wonder if the likes of Pat Sheehan were to publish his version of 1981, would ISKRA come in with the same response?

People believe what they want to believe, mainly motivated by who they most dislike or disagree with rather than anything objective.

I will remember 1981 for the 10 men who died in 1981, not for the bickering of 2009.

Slán

Westie

Thank you. I have read and re-read both the "...

2009-11-12T21:42:57.066Z

Thank you. I have read and re-read both the "Insider" and 'Border Crossing"-both books have important information which is easily missed and very informative to an outside,and perhaps for a few of the inside persons, who are looking for some of the intricate pieces of this puzzle we call history-can't thank you enough for the direction. Aimless searching of the printed material is not only expensive,but also confusing. Best, WM

Seán Mór, what is it exactly that is being done to...

2009-11-12T19:43:51.586Z

Seán Mór, what is it exactly that is being done to the memory of the hunger strikers? It strikes me that a lot is being done to the memory of others but not the hunger strikers themselves.
When such a topic comes onto the agenda for discussion it will always be contentious and divisive. It can be about anything not just the hunger strike.
There is no such thing as an organised truth that is truthful and this type of process is the best we will get. More evidence and interpretations thrown up and people reach judgements accordingly.
The outcome of your apprehensions would be no more discussion which you won't be happy with either.
There is no peace of mind to be gained from this for you whatever way it goes. The whole thing is challenging. I feel most uncomfortable about some of the challenges posed by it to someone like Bik who I always felt was a great guy. I don't envy him. I would like it to be some other way, some answer that would allow us all to say 'fine' and focus on something else. But these things are not like that. Discovery is not always a pleasant experience.

If we are to understand the past better this is the way such understanding is reached. No fairytales, no happy endings. And a lot of bile thrown in along the way from every quarter.

I think it is what they once said about democracy, the worst possible choice apart from all the rest.

uilodomhnaill, eventually

2009-11-12T19:18:27.795Z

uilodomhnaill, eventually

Will you be posting a review of Rogelio Alonso'...

2009-11-12T18:23:01.747Z

Will you be posting a review of Rogelio Alonso's book?

The debate regards the Hunger Strikers being cynic...

2009-11-12T15:20:54.410Z

The debate regards the Hunger Strikers being cynically used by "Leadership" for electoral gain was very much discussed during and after the events. The element of surprise, or something new being discovered, is something that I find somewhat contrived. Specific details may be "new" but the interpretation of events are not.

This is an old story - pre-O'Rawe. On the outside, in Belfast, there were many Republicans who were openly questioning the morality and strategy of what the "Leadership" were up to. Were the lads in the Blocks so naive as to not suspect this themselves? That I would find hard to believe. Lions led by Donkeys? No doubt about it.

fair play dixie,what matters is the truth...adams ...

2009-11-12T15:08:11.992Z

fair play dixie,what matters is the truth...adams and co. seem to be the only ones who dont like their narrative being challenged!

All these contributions, from both 'sides'...

2009-11-11T22:22:58.227Z

All these contributions, from both 'sides' of the debate are very interesting to read, and each of them in their own way is an important contribution to the patchwork of narratives that make up the 'whole story', even if that whole story will never be as unified within republicanism as it once used to be.

I think the average person is now bewildered by the descent into internecine nitpicking, and is lost in the confusion of dates, personalities, offers that weren't deals, and deals that weren't mere offers, and conversations that never took place yet were overheard by others...

Most republicans know that the hungerstrike did not happen in a void... that its origins and development occurred in a political struggle, of which electoral engagement was one part (and not only Gerry Adams was interested in electoral engagement... see Ó Brádaigh's interview in the same paper).

I don't take any particular side in this story, no matter how strongly each side claims to own the truth. Trying to isolate certain aspects of the decisionmaking process around the hungerstrike, and trying to quantify 'political' decisions in comparison to 'humanitarian' decisions, so that blame can be laid, will not benefit anyone. The hungerstrike narrative is now doomed to be an eternally contested and slighty vicious narrative... with no winners, with former comrades claiming to be 'astonished' and 'shocked' at each other. The Irish News is allowing everyone to be 'King of the Castle', and to call everyone else the dirty wee rascals, for a day.

Both sides of this argument have made very good points, but those points fade into insignificance when compared to the overall damage being done to the memory of the hungerstrikers. For me, the losers are the memory of the hungerstrikers (and that's all they have left), and the distress of their families. I, of course, cannot speak on behalf of the families, and it is clear that they all have their own positions on this too, but I think with the passage of time that this whole episode will come a close second to the tragedy of the hungerstrike itself.

Insightful article by Dixie! Fair play to him and ...

2009-11-11T18:01:09.487Z

Insightful article by Dixie! Fair play to him and the fearless truthseekers who are delving into the past to unravel the tangle of untruths about the 1981 stailc that professional politicians have profitted from, both fiscally and in terms of electoral gain.

"Question Everything."

http://hubpages.com/profile/iskra1916