Monday, June 18, 2012

Celebrating Women's Freedom By Silencing Women

Monday, June 18, 2012  AM  65 comments


Tonight The Pensive Quill carries an open letter from guest writer Sinead O'Connor to Amnesty Ireland, in response to their qualified invitation 

June 18th 2012

Amnesty Ireland:

On June 3 I received a phone call from Colm O'Gorman of Amnesty Ireland.

He asked would I perform nothing compares to you at tonight's concert which celebrates the freedom of women by celebrating the lovely lady from Burma.

He stated that Amnesty,  while wishing me to perform, had concerns about my mental health.

He stated he had been asked to tell me that "she is the star of the show". Meaning the lovely lady from Burma.

What he meant was that they would like me to come and sing but not to open my mouth about anything or say or do or wear anything controversial.

Or act like a crazy person.

I found the terms in which the invitation were put to be extremely insulting and disrespectful.

I therefore turned down the invitation.

It seems a little odd to me that an event which is supposed to celebrate women's freedom should be used as an opportunity to prophylactically silence a female artist, while at the same time exploiting her international fame and her talent.

I also find offensive the implication that my various 'stances' as an artist were mentally unsound.

In particular I found this offensive coming from Colm O'Gorman as my main stances as an artist (the ones which I am called 'crazy' for.. namely church..) have been in his very cause!!!!!

I object to having prejudice thrown at me by anyone (especially Amnesty Ireland, and in particular  Colm O'Gorman, for whose cause I have risked my absolute everything, and endured 20 years of being treated like shit)  because of the fact that I suffer from bipolar disorder.

Knowing someone has a mental illness does not give the right to dismiss everything that person thinks, does, says, or feels, or stands for as an artist or human being.

Nor does it give the right to insult the sufferer (yet try to exploit her at same time).

Just as homophobia is disgraceful, so is prejudice toward those of us who suffer from mental illnesses.

Had I attended the event I would have done or said nothing other than kiss the nice lady's face.

I hope to receive a detailed and formal apology from Amnesty Ireland.

So far this has not happened.

They say they are 'saddened' by my attitude.

Sounds like church-speak to me, Colm.

Sinead O'Connor


Posted in:

65 comments:

Love the song, 'intensely dislike' the singer!

Fair point and well put! AND NEEDED SAYING!! Bravo Sinead!!

Great piece Sinead. Thanks for letting us carry it. The questions very much need to be asked.

This comment has been removed by the author.

Beautyfrompain,

I think the entire letter from start to finish asks serious questions of AI's approach to this matter

Beautyfrompain

I think the entire letter exposes arrogance, contempt, and unabashed bad manners on the part of Amnesty International.

The great and the good have shown a level of high handedness and and disrespect toward Sinead and anyone suffering from any mental illness, in a country with a very high suicide rate among all age groups.

The whole attitude of Amnesty is reminiscent of Papal visits where the poor and homeless are rounded up en-mass and imprisoned to clean up the streets for the Nuncio.

This comment has been removed by the author.

Where to start-

" for whose cause [Ammesty Ireland]
I have risked my absolute everything" to be honest if Bono had of said that instead of Sinead we would be saying that he is as mad as the march hare-

" exploiting her international fame " Aye you are on the tip of the worlds lips O'connor- cant understand why she could not have sung 1 song for a female world hero
was it jealousy at play-

This comment has been removed by the author.

Michaelhenry

Even you, I expect, would have the good grace not to ask someone to do something for you while insulting them to their face and expect them to swallow it. Amnesties request was tactless and vulgar and I can understand Sinead hurt. I can also understand from you and BeautyFP's posts that in some way AI need show no respect or regard to any harm or deep insult that they do. Generally Amnesty is made up of a bunch of middle class bleeding hearts that no nothing of loss, fear or being marginalized.

It is not good enough that they can 'champion' human rights far away and insult and be abusive closer to home. Sinead's feelings, selfrespect and pride are worthy of Amnesty's respect and regard.

she had every right to refuse. I agree with her decision.

Hi Sinead, are you back on twitter? Good piece, brave stand! Full support from me.

‘What he meant was that they would like me to come and sing but not to open my mouth about anything or say or do or wear anything controversial’.

I am always wary when someone starts a sentence by ‘what he meant was……’

So far he has been accused of having concern for her mental health.

‘I also find offensive the implication that my various 'stances' as an artist were mentally unsound.’

Touchy.com

‘In particular I found this offensive coming from Colm O'Gorman as my main stances as an artist (the ones which I am called 'crazy' for.. namely church..) have been in his very cause!!!!!’

How ironic. Unity in Catholic bashing only goes so far.

‘They say they are 'saddened' by my attitude.’

I have no time for Amnesty Ireland, but I share their sadness.

Tiarna nailed it right down deadon:
The great and the good have shown a level of high handedness and and disrespect toward Sinead and anyone suffering from any mental illness, in a country with a very high suicide rate among all age groups. The whole attitude of Amnesty is reminiscent of Papal visits...'

Keep rolling over them Sinead. You have given much strength to the many worldwide. The stigma of mental illness is real and you have given a primary exammple of how it is enacted.
There are not many Irish who are the picture of mental health imo - many just disguise/mask their issues and lash out at those whose mental health status is public knowledge. This denial is also heavily evidenced in suicides stats - imploded in untreated/unacknowledged wounds.

There is a high level of schizophrenia in the north amongst males - fragmentation.

@ MichaelHenry Sinead O'Connor had the guts and courage none of Ireland so called brave did when she tore up a pic of the Pope & spoke out. O the uproar. When you take on the Babylon Whore the masses shriek in rage. Denial is a strange demon. History tends to repeat also.

@tiarna LOL too good! Re 'Generally Amnesty is made up of a bunch of middle class bleeding hearts that no nothing of loss, fear or being marginalized.'

@ JohnMcGirr Xenophobia is a mental illness that cripples.

If it is as Sinead writes, that's a very bad scene.
Very strong retort. People with mental health problems deserve to be treated with dignity and respect.
She doesn't miss and hit the door.

Below are the a copy of the comments that BeautyFromPain deleted. A copy is posted so that anyone following the discussion will know what exactly is being referred to in other comments.

BeautyFromPain has left a new comment on your post "Celebrating Women's Freedom By Silencing Women":

What are 'the questions' you refer to AM?

Cannot find any in the article.


Posted by BeautyFromPain to The Pensive Quill at 8:37 PM, June 18, 2012

*

BeautyFromPain has left a new comment on your post "Celebrating Women's
Freedom By Silencing Women":

Yes but those questions being?



Posted by BeautyFromPain to The Pensive Quill at 9:17 PM, June 18, 2012

*

BeautyFromPain has left a new comment on your post "Celebrating Women's
Freedom By Silencing Women":

Still no questions. All the best.


Posted by BeautyFromPain to The Pensive Quill at 9:45 PM, June 18, 2012

SMH,
'@ JohnMcGirr Xenophobia is a mental illness that cripples'

Who has that?

John,

you are not xenophobic. You hate Irish gays every bit as much as you hate English or German gays!

I sent the lovely lady,s party an e-mail asking if they would meet Marian,s family,a woman who like herself has had her freedom stolen from her,they never replied!

Tiarna-

In Sinead o'connors own open letter
she could not bring herself to name
Aung San Suu Ky- this speaks volumes because the nights celebrating was not for Sinead but for another- it was o'connor who silenced the world heros name in her letter-

Saint?MaryHedgehog-

" o'connor had the guts and courage
none of Irelands so called brave did when she tore up a pic of the pope " - is she looking an award for sitting on her arse whilst she ripped a picture apart- this is the main reason why she never turned up- the Event was not about Sinead-pity she can't get over that fact-

Michaelhenry,

This is a very weak argument. It seems to be a case of nitpicking. It is also a boilerplate way of trying to suffocate voices that aren't in toneless tune with the ditty of the day.

Not using the name struck me as a critique of AI for the way Sinead felt it was differentiating between women it had characterised as either nasty or nice. The implication being that AI was not seeking to impose conditions on the woman it categorised as nice.

Michaelhenry

Sinead might simply have omitted Aung San Suu Ky out of etiquette by not making her part of why she took AI to task. Sinead accurately focused her complaint without causing offense to the person in whose name the event was in honour.

Sinead's letter is very well penned. AI have no defense for their lack of decorum shown toward Sinead, or regard to those suffering from mental health issues. AI begging Sinead to sing for them is best described as both crass or callous arrogance.

SMH said
'@ JohnMcGirr Xenophobia is a mental illness that cripples'

AM said
‘you are not xenophobic. You hate Irish gays every bit as much as you hate English or German gays!’

I am neither xenophobic, nor ‘homophobic’, (whatever that is).

If I were though would I not be entitled to the respect that you are demanding for Sinead?

John,

neither you nor anyone else should have your ideas respected simply by dint of having them. People should have their right to have ideas respected. I think you get plenty of that here as you air your views no matter how obnoxious they might appear to us. And that is reciprocated by you who find our ideas repellant.

It follows that were you to hold phobic ideas (however defined) you would merit no respect for those ideas. People are free to respect them or withhold such respect.

Where was I demanding 'respect' for Sinead?

AM,

Tiarna said;
‘The great and the good have shown a level of high handedness and and disrespect toward Sinead and anyone suffering from any mental illness’

‘Sinead's feelings, selfrespect and pride are worthy of Amnesty's respect and regard.’

Blackwjatertown said;
‘People with mental health problems deserve to be treated with dignity and respect.’

SMH said;
‘@ JohnMcGirr Xenophobia is a mental illness that cripples.’

‘Where was I demanding 'respect' for Sinead?’

The point wasn’t directed at you personally. I gave two quotes and a rhetorical question. This was based on the fact that I have twice been taken up for making comments on SO’C’s mental health, (when I was unaware that she had a diagnosed problem), and then I have accusations of mental illness immediately thrown at me.

No, I don’t expect you to ‘respect’ my ideas, nor do I respect many of yours, apart form when they are right. I don’t however call you insane.

Back to the issue -
I never thought I would say it. Michaelhenry is 100% right!
Maybe I am a lunatic!

Seems that it is Bono and Geldorf too!

http://www.joe.ie/news-politics/current-affairs/sinead-oconnor-has-just-torn-a-few-strips-off-bono-bob-geldof-and-amnesty-0025993-1

Interesting link here:
https://twitter.com/#!/sineadoconnor16
Hoisted by her own petard.

Seems Amnesty Ireland .. must have thought Sinead O Connor came up the Foyle, Lagan etc in a bubble.. in a seemingly Dear Sinead we are celebrating women's freedom and we seek your fame to raise the profile and promote our event.. However, we are placing our fullest patronizing pre-conditions and a fullest suppression of you as a woman, human being and with a fullest disregard for your dignity. Thanking you Sinead See you there .. Well done to you Sinead for declining as it seems more likely that your presence was more about raising the bare faced ego of the audacious human being who penned the invite in the first place.. Yes for sure Sinead .. Nothing Compares to you .. Maith thu !!!

Just read this and was immediately minded of your comments on this horrible practice.

SMH,

the comment above was addressed to you

@ JohnMcGirr For an old codger you are adept at using that google search engine i must say. The only lunacy i detect in you is a fervour to defend Catholicism with no acknowledgement of the crimes ongoing & also a marked distaste/severe judgements on whose lifestyles defy your belief systems. I however admire your tenacity to wade in time after time & run your mouth/thoughts.

In realville i doubt you would be so willing to do so – it is very expensive replacing teeth & getting reconstructive surgery. Life is messy, diverse, complex & that is reality. You can create a wee, self sanctified vortex to live in shaped by your own conviction but reality just chugs on oblivious.

Psychotics build castles in the sky
Schizophrenics live in them
Neurotics clean the castles
Psychiatrists collect the rent
& xenophobics congratulate themselves
they are have no affiliations

Vatican builds castles on earth
The deceived faithful believe Vatican be pure
Voices of victims & survivors deemed bent
We drown alive in misplaced shame manure
& Rome is STILL collecting the rent.

Sinead is definitely right in exposing AI & in doing so also highlights the rights of those living with mental health issues. To be commended in all facets. One thing i have always despised about us Irish is how willing so many are to shoot down the messenger of truth who does not conform to societal dictates - all those unspoken codes of what is supposedly 'normal' behaviour... Sinead is once again rattling the cages of hypocrites/double standards & it is good value!

@ Anthony RE 'Just read this and was immediately minded of your comments on this horrible practice.'
i nearly regurgitated me breakfast reading that... It is beyond barbarism It is true madness... Horrendous. Of course the men she were seeing wont have their heads lopped off...

SMH,
‘@ JohnMcGirr For an old codger you are adept at using that google search engine i must say.’

‘Old codger’! I would hedge a bet you are my senior. Let me guess, hmm! I think you between 59 and 62, am I close?

‘The only lunacy i detect in you is a fervour to defend Catholicism with no acknowledgement of the crimes ongoing & also a marked distaste/severe judgements on whose lifestyles defy your belief systems.’

Yet I have posted links to Sites that make the PQ look like out and out papists! But you just don’t follow them. Not that you have once listened but I also deny condemning anyone. I condemn ideas not people.

‘I however admire your tenacity to wade in time after time & run your mouth/thoughts.’

I would like to say I admire your stuck needle Hedgy, but I don’t. As I said before though, I do enjoy your insults when you dodge my posts.

‘In realville i doubt you would be so willing to do so – it is very expensive replacing teeth & getting reconstructive surgery.’

You would be surprised. I lived in London for a year and spent every week outside abortion clinics. I was attacked often. Had hot coffee thrown in my face and regular run ins. It was worth it for the ones who came back with their babies to thank us. Had a few knocks here to. Not boasting, just saying that you aren’t right in claiming that I won’t stand up for what I think is right

‘Life is messy, diverse, complex & that is reality. You can create a wee, self sanctified vortex to live in shaped by your own conviction but reality just chugs on oblivious.’’

And it doesn’t become any less messy by throwing away the rule book, and attacking the only thing here that can help us, and then beheading and burning a memento of God’s Mother. How would you feel if someone took a photo of your mother, burned it, and then asked you a favour?

'Sinead is once again rattling the cages of hypocrites/double standards & it is good value!’

Twitter, how apt! Read what all that she wrote and all she attacked and see if you don’t change your mind. The letter at least was vaguely coherent! More than can be said by her Twitter ramblings.


AM,
http://www.theblaze.com/stories/atheist-blogger-stuns-secular-community-with-announcement-shes-converting-to-catholicism/

John,

why do you have no time for AI?

Saint?MaryHedgehog,

I fail to understand the stance AI took on this issue. I think they do a lot of good work and Colm O Gorman has been a great advocate on behalf of people abused by the church.

I think it becomes even more inexplicable when they failed to go on the radio last night to discuss the issue with Sinead. She came across very powerfully.

AM,
‘why do you have no time for AI?’

In the words of Fr. Frank Pavone, National Director of Priests for Life
"Amnesty International was founded to protect human rights, yet it now treads upon the most fundamental human right, the right to life. To fail to protect the right to life renders suspect one’s advocacy of any other human right.”

Amnesty Ireland backs this policy, even if not actively promoting it here.

John,

thanks for that. But did Priests For Life not vociferously back the war on Iraq? That war as we know was responsible for mass murder.

AM,
‘thanks for that. But did Priests For Life not vociferously back the war on Iraq? That war as we know was responsible for mass murder.’

Another ‘old codger’ who is fit to ‘google’!

There has always been a case for a ‘just war.’ Personally I don’t believe this was met in the Iraq war. Others did. I don’t think they had an overall position, but defended themselves rather on those who would deny there could ever be a ‘just war.’

Even if some felt the war was just, they would not have backed mass murder of the innocent. That would be a war-crime.

In Fr Pavone’s words;

“.. do not miss the profound difference with abortion. There is no room for interpretations or evaluations of whether abortion may be justified. It cannot be, because its very essence is the deliberate targeting and destruction of a child. In war, we do not target a single child, whereas every abortion targets a child.”

John,

I think this is a cop out by Pavone. As for googling, believe it or not I have read quite a bit on religion in the US because of the threat posed to science education by actions like that in Dover back in 2005. Events like Dayton and Dover have long interested me. Every day I read something on religion in the US.

Quite often I come across these pro life groups and they are invariably linked in with the conservative movement and the GOP. A year or so back you were citing George Weigel against Hans Kung, but I had already known of Weigal, and had arrived at the view that he was a theologian of war.

You are aware that even were the war in Iraq just the indiscriminate nature of the attacks will always kill children. So I don't accept the mitigation (not justification) you offer. I fell Pavone is simply another right wing ideologue for whom the assault on women's rights is actually more cherished than the lives of children. Has he ever held a protest against the murder of Iraqi children or spoke out against it?

On abortion, I have never been a fan but defer to a woman's right to choose rather than support it. I am open to every opinion on the matter because I find it an emotive topic but I invariably disregard religious opinion on anything (not the opinion of religious people) because it is all blowing smoke.

There is no agreement in society on abortion and people must go with their conscience on it. Largely we are guided by medical opinion on whether or not it constitutes murder. Religious opinion carries little weight given the attitude of the Church to child abuse. Church before children being the rule of thumb. One problem with the religious argument is that the bible endorses the murder of innocent children – take the Passover for example. I reckon if a sufficient body of medical opinion not informed by religion were to say it is murder there would be a serious change in mindset. People who opt to have abortion don’t regard it as murder but they would regard killing their children after birth as murder. And where views differ society cannot be guided by religious opinion. The religious must of course be free to abstain from abortion so long as they don’t seek to coerce others to follow their line.

AM,
I wouldn’t set too much store by either Pavone or Weigel. If I quote them on any issue it is not necessarily to endorse any of their other views. Curiously Pavone has been silenced by his bishop the last time I heard and was under virtual house arrest to thwart his pro-life work.

An interesting feature is that you tend to see everything in terms of left and right, which seem vaguely synonymous to right and wrong. So left is right and right is wrong. I remember an old Spanish priest saying, thirty something years ago, Catholics should not see from left or right, but from above. That is easier to say than it is to do, however.

‘You are aware that even were the war in Iraq just the indiscriminate nature of the attacks will always kill children.’

All indiscriminate attacks would be condemned by right morality. The British were master of indiscriminate bombing in their saturation attacks on Dresden and beyond.

I have never considered abortion as a religious matter, and regard the view of the Catholic Church as being only a confirmation of the only reasonable position to take on the subject. In fact my primary objection to abortion is not that it is murder. Of course I am opposed to it on this ground, but it is then open to being undermined by those who say that a non-viable foetus is not a person. I believe that modern science is coming to the same conclusion that life starts at conception, as the Catholic Church teaches. Meanwhile, even if we did not see this as human life, induced abortion would still be wrong as it is diametrically opposed to the finality of nature. All of nature is there to give life, not to stifle it. Even if a ten week old foetus were non-human, (which I don’t accept), it would nevertheless be an evil to thwart the potentiality of life on the basis of a value judgement.

In practice it is easier for someone who opposes abortion to dwell on the life of the infant, as it is easier to see how wrong it is when seen from that light, than to complain about the finality of nature been interrupted and the end of an act thwarted. But my primary opposition to abortion is the one of human reason, rather than religion.

@ AM i didnt listen to the radio interview Couldnt be bothered as knew Sinead would wipe the floor. O'G. may not have done an interview/response because of legal advice maybe? It would imo be very prudent if he just fronted up and apologised in a real, grounded way with FULL recognition of how he discriminated because he felt he could. I dont think what he did is anything new = he just chose the wrong person to play it out on. It does not undermine his work but it confronts how human rights advocates can fail in their personal life to fully grasp facets of what they stand for.

Out of this can come better recognition & insights into the discrimatory behaviour often enacted and unrecognised as discrimatory by the enactor. The impact on the reciever is devastating but they will often disguise the depth of impact as believe in a way that it is all they are worthy of & be shamed into silence.

My heart and energy goes more out to the men and women who live in shitbox boarding house rooms, ridiculed by society and abandoned by family, abandoned by society itself. All because they have a mental illness. Sinead is articulate, financially comfortable and able to access full support. She will survive this time aok and is utilising it well to address discrimination and stigma.

Afterthought i must say i have grown weary of those who purport to represent survivors of clergy
abuse. We have our own voices = empower us to lead the charge... I just think disempowerment happens when too many do gooders jump on the wagon of rights. I am a great believer in giving the victim the voice rather than an organisation. That way a healing can proceed for the victim in a healthy way.

@ JohnMcGirr As if i am gonna trawl thru all yer links. Anthony can and does! He is kind in his own way. Thorough & intellectually sharp as a razor. U r fortunate he engages the way he does. I do not have that type of patience.
I am 53 & hate twitter, facebook, mobile fones, kindles, skype etc. They shit me after awhile as they r time wasters. I am addicted to firing up a laptop wherever i am. If u go online on yer mobile someone always rings u to say hi how u be, nice weather aint it etc & tell u some trivial crap u could do without There is no end to the intrusions in this era. I hate it.

I took a look at twitter tho due to your shock horror number.
There was nothing on Sineads twitter account interactions that was remotely shocking or out of the norm.

I just hope she doesnt burn out in the cause... U know self cares. Every man and his dog was there = all the suicide prevention orgs. One of them i did some work for voluntarily ages ago when they were setting up their service. It was good to see young lads speaking out who have dep.

RE abortion Am not pro it but i would strongly suggest to you to leave interventions/counselling of individuals who choose it up to healthcare professionals & affiliated health providers.
Now i must away to self flagellate for decapitating a poxy graven image of Gods Mum lol.

John,

Most people who call you insane here do it to wind you up.

Those people who stand outside abortion clinics remind me of the Harryville mob. I recall a discussion one time where it was proposed to picket a synagogue over something to do with Israel. I thought it daft.

SMH,
‘@ JohnMcGirr As if i am gonna trawl thru all yer links.’

Well that explains a lot. You are answering what you think I’m saying rather than what I am saying.

‘Anthony can and does! He is kind in his own way. ‘

Can’t dispute that.

‘I am 53 & hate twitter, facebook, mobile fones, kindles, skype etc.’

That was very cheeky of me to ask that, but you did call me an ‘old codger’. You are old enough to be my ‘older sister’, ha ha. I hate twitter and skype too, but use the others. Guess it is my relative youthfulness that allows it.

‘I took a look at twitter tho due to your shock horror number.
There was nothing on Sineads twitter account interactions that was remotely shocking or out of the norm.’

You don’t think a whole day ‘effin and blindin’ at everyone because she thinks she has been slighted is unusual. Even she apologized for a lot of it.

‘RE abortion Am not pro it but i would strongly suggest to you to leave interventions/counselling of individuals who choose it up to healthcare professionals & affiliated health providers.’

I restricted myself to saying the Rosary. A lot of Irish girls in particular would not go ahead when they saw us, so many came back to thank us and the mill closed.

‘Now i must away to self flagellate for decapitating a poxy graven image of Gods Mum lol.’

Do you think a photograph of you ma would be a ‘graven image’? The average god doesn’t like their ma abused, so why would the one who entrusted His one to us at His Crucifixion be different?

@john "I believe that modern science is coming to the same conclusion that life starts at conception, as the Catholic Church teaches"
We have a governement in Canada that proclaming the same thing. They only use the scientific argument for abortion. When we talk about global warming or the theory of evolution, they don't want to hear about scientist.
come on!

@BroPopeMcGirr re sinead/twitter and suchlike. Dis inhibition occurs online with most people when they r upset, angry, unwell, driven by a conviction & go online. The problem with internet dialogue (text/image etc) is once its on the net it is on the net permanently. Hence anyone can view and critique from whatever angle they want to & make conclusions. Personally i think it is unwise to go online when one knows one is on edge or one is getting too heightened in responses but most of us have succumbed to doing just that in some form. I like the many know we are in a cyber spooksville also...
Bipolar individuals are often highly intelligent/sensitive/creative souls. Not a good combo when the illness busts through meds or the person goes off meds. It must be a hell of a journey for some. NB No human being is their diagnosis- i mean do we go round calling someone with diabetes “that diabetic” and shape our view of them from an illness. No of course not but with mental illness the general public often do.

NB Abuse when you are young melts your developing synapses in fact research has shown it does but the brain has plasticity so all is not lost. You either become a victim or roll wif it and build something good from it. I am not one for cry me a river bullshit as it just debilitates more. Life is brutal, harden up, learn new ways to survive or go under is where it is at. It also gives one additional skills in discerning what is going on for some in crisis & being able to empower them to fight on.

Your using an image of my Mother being destroyed as a comparison to my destroying a religious icon (of Isis origin) is dumb as. Comes across like some daft tosser in jail trying to wind someone up for an emotive, violent response. I despise all those catholic statues lumps of plaster, paint and wood. Lighting candles and praying to them is tragic indoctrination from our catholic childhoods. I spit on it all. Go anywhere in the world and u see the same stuff. I once had a heated argument with some Buddhist monks who tried to extract an exorbitant amount of money out of me. When i refused to cough up (& why should i & i aint rich) but donated a modest amount one monk screamed at me “The curse of Buddha be on u” in broken English (not feeling the love baby!) . A few minutes later a stray dog attacked me as i stood peering in disgust at the monstrous laughing Buddha (VietNam) Ach! tis the curse the curse lolol O and for your google searches one of the strangest religions/cults imo is Cao Dai (VN). That great big poxed eye of Horus is everywhere in the world & on it all goes The artwork is spectacular mind. PS God is Spirit not icons. slan

SMH
‘I despise all those catholic statues lumps of plaster, paint and wood. Lighting candles and praying to them is tragic indoctrination from our catholic childhoods. I spit on it all.’

This is the root of your fundamental misunderstanding. Catholics do NOT pray to statues. They use statues and holy pictures merely to represent loved ones in Heaven, as we would our loved ones on earth. Therefore my mentioning a photo of your ma is not to wind you up. It is to explain what a statue or an icon is.

In fact, even the secular world erects statues and pictures to important people. You would have to be pretty dumb to pray to these or ‘prettier dumber’ to think that others do. Were you ever really a Catholic, because I have never known of a Catholic who prays to statues? That is a figment of the protestant imagination.
Johntheyounger!

John I add the pope, cardinals,bishops ,priests dickeydodgers,the legion of Mary and the rest to your spitting comment,oh by the way I would add muslims,jews, prods, and all those wee fat budda bastards, the one true FSM is where its really at a cara, all hail the upsidedown colander!!

@OgJohnMcGirr Re was u ever a Catholic etc Answer – yes birthed into it. From a fullon catholic upbringing. I have left the cult LEFT like Elvis has left the building! The nightmare is long over but the healing is protracted/life long. When i was growing up inside the Beast of Catholicism we paid money to light candles to pray in front of statues.

Flowers were placed in front or on statues. Prayers for the dead, prayers for this n that... What are the rosary beads but a mandala and what is worship of the purported Queen of Heaven but idolatry aka Isis origin. You could be in India or VietNam doing the same to Hindi gods/goddesses or a rotund Buddha. It beggars belief you cannot see.

You should listen to your elders I am one :-) but most of all you should read what Jesus said. I don’t care if someone is prod or catholic or Buddhist or atheist. I do care if they promote their belief or their construct belief system when it has destroyed childrens lives... I am convinced loyalists, OO’s and the Vatican radicalised Islam, Sharia are plagues of the world

My own artwork and statement – Completed Montage – Vomit on the Vatican by an ex catholic. Read what i wrote rather than ponder the garish artwork. It answers everything i don’t have time to write here.
http://maryhedgehog.blogspot.com.au/2011/10/completed-montage-vomit-on-vatican-by.html

There are times and seasons. I've done me part in having a voice for those who will come after us. Dont ever think it was easy to do so. I just hide the torment well. The sad thing is people like you are just not listening... you should be listening and seeing but refuse to. I did have a laugh at your horror re Sinead O’C’s swearing and that she dresses sometimes in a priests outfit. Priestess Pottymouth ahaha I think that she made a strong statement at Vatican but it has eluded you what it is... you were distracted by her imperfections! She would do well to walk away from Catholicism altogether imo.
You cannot build a new house on sinking sand... Sin-e
www.molestedcatholics.com

SMH
‘When i was growing up inside the Beast of Catholicism we paid money to light candles to pray in front of statues.’

If you were ever taught to pray to a statue, then you were not a Catholic, but an idolater. Do you think that those who light a flame at a tomb of an unknown soldier are worshipping the soldier, or is it rather in memory of what it represents? If you kneel down to pray next to your bed, are you worshipping your mattress?

‘Flowers were placed in front or on statues. Prayers for the dead, prayers for this n that... ‘
Still not a sign of worship. Happens at funerals every day.

‘what is worship of the purported Queen of Heaven but idolatry aka Isis origin..’
Catholics honour God’s Mother. In Christ’s first reported miracle, those in need went to the Mother of Jesus, She interceded with Her Son, who changed water into wine. The use of the word ‘worship’ that you consistently use is not one that a Catholic would use, as its meaning has changed over the centuries. (Another reason to stick to Latin).

‘You should listen to your elders I am one :-)’
But you seem to have swallowed every protestant lie going. I am well aware what the Catholic Church teaches on these things as I have not succumbed to the novelties of Vatican II, hence we stick to all the ways and practices that you would have had.

‘but most of all you should read what Jesus said.’
How do we know what He said? Oh, yes, the Catholic Church has written and lovingly guarded His words. Its councils and Popes approved the canon of Scriptures and sifted the false writings from the true. Its monks wrote them out by hand for fifteen hundred years to pass them on to us. I do agree with you that we should read what He said.


‘My own artwork and statement – Completed Montage – Vomit on the Vatican by an ex catholic. Read what i wrote rather than ponder the garish artwork. It answers everything i don’t have time to write here.’
The one point I absolutely agree with you on is that since the Second Vatican Council, those in authority have not used it. They will be answerable for that. You conclude from that, that the whole edifice is rotten. I conclude that there is a truth underlying that will never be destroyed no matter how many within the Church defect. Meanwhile I have nothing to do with those you refer to as ‘the Vatican’. I await a proper Catholic Restoration.

‘The sad thing is people like you are just not listening... you should be listening and seeing but refuse to.’
I am listening, and I can see that you have been hurt. But your bad experience does not negate the truth of something. For example, in England at the so-called Reformation, almost the entire hierarchy defected. Does that make the Church wrong, of course not. It makes those who defected wrong. One obscure bishop remained steadfast and that is where the Church was. Today we remember St John Fisher. Who could name the others?

‘Priestess Pottymouth ahaha I think that she made a strong statement at Vatican but it has eluded you what it is... you were distracted by her imperfections!’
I guess that is what was worrying Amnesty Ireland. People tend to be distracted by such things, and they didn’t want that to happen.

‘She would do well to walk away from Catholicism altogether imo.’
She did.

‘You cannot build a new house on sinking sand... Sin-e’
The Church was built on the rock of Peter, but even he denied Christ three times and sunk while trying to walk on water.

John,

but they worship the host, or wafer as I term it, and it is not nmeant to be representative

‘but they worship the host, or wafer as I term it, and it is not nmeant to be representative’

Yes. We do give divine worship to the Host. It is a wafer before it has been transubstantiated, it then ceases to be a wafer, but becomes a Host, i.e. Victim. The Host is God, and therein lies the evil in its desecration: whether that be by atheists impaling it with rusty nails or Novus Ordo ‘priests’ who would approach the altar after abusing a child.

As the ‘Adoro Te Devote’ expresses it;

I devoutly adore you, O hidden Deity,
Truly hidden beneath these appearances.
My whole heart submits to you,
And in contemplating you,
It surrenders itself completely.
Sight, touch, taste are all deceived
In their judgment of you,
But hearing suffices firmly to believe.
I believe all that the Son of God has spoken;
There is nothing truer than this word of truth.
On the cross only the divinity was hidden,
But here the humanity is also hidden.
I believe and confess both,
And ask for what the repentant thief asked.
I do not see the wounds as Thomas did,
But I confess that you are my God.
Make me believe more and more in you,
Hope in you, and love you.
O memorial of our Lord's death!
Living bread that gives life to man,
Grant my soul to live on you,
And always to savor your sweetness.
Lord Jesus, Good Pelican,
wash me clean with your blood,
One drop of which can free
the entire world of all its sins.
Jesus, whom now I see hidden,
I ask you to fulfill what I so desire:
That the sight of your face being unveiled
I may have the happiness of seeing your glory. Amen

Of course, as always, it is better in Latin!

John,

but you don't seriously expect us to buy into any of that? Are we really expected to believe that the difference between a wafer and a plastic statue is a bit of magic makes one god?

AM,
'but you don't seriously expect us to buy into any of that? Are we really expected to believe that the difference between a wafer and a plastic statue is a bit of magic makes one god?'

I am not expecting you to buy into anything, you being a heathen and all, Anthony.

But I clarified we do NOT worship statues, (in the modern sense of that word).

It is so strange to hear all the well-worn protestant slanders coming from those who were once Catholic. The truth be known, I don't think the Catholic Faith has been taught in Ireland for about two generations.

That the Faith was not handed on is a form of abuse in itself, because you who reject it, never knew it. You are repulsed by something you have never really known.

Jphn,

'You are repulsed by something you have never really known.'

Cause to be thankful

John,

`It is so strange to hear all the well-worn protestant slanders coming from those who were once Catholic.'

A Protestant slander from the Catholic Catechism for you to consider.

V. The Sacramental Sacrifice Thanksgiving, Memorial, Presence

1374 In the most blessed sacrament of the Eucharist "the body and blood, together with the soul and divinity, of our Lord Jesus Christ and, therefore, the whole Christ is truly, really, and substantially contained."This presence is called 'real' - by which is not intended to exclude the other types of presence as if they could not be 'real' too, but because it is presence in the fullest sense: that is to say, it is a substantial presence by which Christ, God and man, makes himself wholly and entirely present."

Robert,

nice to see you popping it. But I confess, it is all mermaids and unicorns to me. How people get serious about it is beyond me.

Robert,
My reference to Protestant slanders of Catholic belief was aimed at those who accuse Catholics of ‘worshiping’ statues, and regurgitate the silly accusations of such things as the ‘Maria Monk’ lies. These same people think that an indulgence is a permission to permit sin; and that the Blessed Virgin is somehow a pagan goddess.

I was not referring to modernist Rome, that authored the Catechism you have quoted. But I do not believe that the contents of that Catechism are being passed on to our children. The practices that have developed since the 1960s and 70s have led most Catholics to abandon their faith in the real presence.

Anthony,

I appreciate that you accept none of it. Your atheism is no more an issue for me than your choice of footwear!

Robert,

you must wear hush puppies when it comes to religion. You never seem to rant about it!

AM said to Robert,
'you must wear hush puppies when it comes to religion. You never seem to rant about it!'

I know atheists too who don't rant too. We must be more alike than you would care to admit, lol!

Anthony,

Faith, indeed Protestant faith, should be an intensely personal matter. Civil and religious liberty for all and that includes colander wearing non believers such as yourself!

Robert said
'Faith, indeed Protestant faith, should be an intensely personal matter.'

That may express the protestant view. It does not express the Catholic view, which states that the individual, the family and society should all submit to the Kingship of Christ.
(See Quas Primas of Pope Pius XI).

What's the problem with statue, worship someone who is teling us that he is three and then that he is everywhere... and after that you want to talk to us rationally!

John,

we are not alike at all. You are totally intolerant and I won't tolerate that!!

I thought Pavone was involved in some scandal over money. No longer recall.

Robert,

I agree faith should be an absolutely personal matter. John's notion that people must submit is so similar to the Nazi concept of the relationship between state and society. It makes Christianity sound like Islam. Totalitarian systems are always dangerous.

That said there are many Protestants who can't resist ramming it down our throats and threatening people with hell if we don’t believe what they believe.

Saint?MaryHedgehog,

I love Kindle. It is so easy to use and is super convenient. And I am not a teccie at all. Anything on the web I need done my wife does it! Even Twitter!

‘RE abortion Am not pro it but i would strongly suggest to you to leave interventions/counselling of individuals who choose it up to healthcare professionals & affiliated health providers.’

Rather than listen to rants about hell and murder from the dour old boys club at the Vatican. What say you Cardinal Pell on those inferior Jews?

‘I have grown weary of those who purport to represent survivors of clergy abuse. We have our own voices = empower us to lead the charge ... I just think disempowerment happens when too many do gooders jump on the wagon of rights. I am a great believer in giving the victim the voice rather than an organisation.’

There is something in that but I think the organisations have been sharp and focussed and have sent the beetles scuttling with their discourse on the matter. So long as they do not usurp victims I think it is okay.

Saint?MaryHedgehog

The child asked me today what was Jesus Christ. I explained to him JC was a zombie (he has an interest in zombies and knows that they are fictional) and that people have thought he was god. I thought it a reasonable way to explain it to the mind of a 7 year old.

John

‘An interesting feature is that you tend to see everything in terms of left and right, which seem vaguely synonymous to right and wrong. So left is right and right is wrong.’

I don’t. Although I think left wing ideas in general are ethically superior to right wing ideas. One emphasizes society and sharing, the other individualism and greed. That is a simplification but we don’t have time here to write Das Kapital or the The Wealth of Nations. Yet in practice the Left have often proved as abysmal as the right. They seem to have a religious mindset to ideas and are eager to suppress that which challenges them intellectually.

‘I remember an old Spanish priest saying ...’

Hard to get my attention for what Spanish priests say. Too many of them endorsed the murder of their Basque priest colleagues during the reign of the fascists.

‘All indiscriminate attacks would be condemned by right morality. The British were masters of indiscriminate bombing in their saturation attacks on Dresden and beyond.’

Very true. No different from Sodom and Gomorrah on that regard.

‘I have never considered abortion as a religious matter, and regard the view of the Catholic Church as being only a confirmation of the only reasonable position to take on the subject. In fact my primary objection to abortion is not that it is murder.’

The view of the church is just that a view; means little to many people. Yet there are so many reasonable people who do not take the view that it is murder and they regard that as a reasonable view to take. As much as I dislike it I do not label it murder.

‘I believe that modern science is coming to the same conclusion that life starts at conception’

I don’t know enough about it but it seems not to be coming to the view that abortion is murder.

‘Meanwhile, even if we did not see this as human life, induced abortion would still be wrong as it is diametrically opposed to the finality of nature. All of nature is there to give life, not to stifle it.’

Nature would have killed us off long ago had we not have found ways to harness it and at times thwart it.

‘But my primary opposition to abortion is the one of human reason, rather than religion.’

I have difficulty with that. It seems to me that you are driven by religion. Whatever about that, my acceptance of a woman’s right to choose is shaped by human reason. So in that situation society has to make a choice. It can listen to your reason and then mine. Then it is decision time.

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